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Old 09-04-2008, 06:45 PM
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I was on the brushless fence for mini in the beginning but even our local club racers have not been able to agree on a brushed motor combination (mostly because we have some real cheatin' ego monsters) after the TCS with the impound and all the cheaters still trying to get over then hearing about the IIC and how smooth the brushless race went I feel I need to voice my opion before Tamiya makes rule decisions.
My vote is for brushless 17.5 with 2400 lipo's and keep the 20 tooth max pinion size. I love having a motor that will last all season.
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Old 09-04-2008, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Notso
I love having a motor that will last all season.
And the next...and the next.....as will the battery!
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Old 09-04-2008, 08:07 PM
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I am surprised by the activity. . .

GT1 was once a sealed bushing mod which eventually landed into 19t. I enjoy seeing the speeds of the faster cars and perhaps 10.5 might be good idea for another year. Many have them already. The following year perhaps 13.5 would be the replacement.

GT2 has been equal to a roar class. If roar stock is moving from 13.5 to 17.5, then thats what it will have to be.

GT3 until Tamiya comes out with a new motor, then mabuchi/johnson seems to be and should be it.

Battery power I agree the 5000 is not much different than a 3200, keep the rule based on weight. Then you can still have those with NiMh a place to be competitive and weight is easy to check so is lipo voltage.

Mini might be wise to go BL 17.5 and 2400. For those concerned it is possible to put some escs inside the chassis. Yeah it is a little more costly but would help eliminate run-away motor issues that plague mini. Having a set ratio, not all races would check that, too much work.

As far as regional races the host site needs to decide if they want 1 or 2 race days. Some may not have the man-power or will-power to host a 2 day event.

As far as the rules go, I would like to see them in October with the 1st 2 2009 race days locked in. If the nationals can have addendums, so can the regional rules.

The 2009 Nats, I am sure they will have learned alot from this year and impose changes to narrow peoples interpetations or claimed ignorance. Although it would be interesting to have certain body rules for GT1 and GT2, bodies that we normally would not think of running.

Peace!
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Old 09-04-2008, 08:34 PM
  #9154  
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Originally Posted by Mr. devenwhite
I don't think i've seen a 2c battery in years. it would probably swell up under to much load especialy if you want to run open mod.
oops
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Old 09-04-2008, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by f1larry
As long as 10.5 is going away in roar why make people go out and have to buy a 10.5 when they won't need it to race regularly.

I would like to see the classes as follows

GT1 - 13.5
GT2 - 17.5
GT3 - Silver Can (keep GT3 this way as long as Tamiya still sells kits with silver cans-tech them for a max rpm limit)
Mini - 17.5 (with the Gear limitation this would make Mini a true drivers class)
Spec - silver can (again as long as Tamiya still sells kits with the silver can motor-tech them for a max rpm limit)

GT3 still needs to be in the TCS as this should be the next step for the spec driver.

Allow lipo's in all the classes with with maybe a spec lipo for mini and spec.

Just my thoughts
I agree but not every track follows roar rules. From what I have heard the decision hasn't been set in stone yet. I have heard that is what they want but it hasn't been voted on. Many people still run a 10.5 here at trackside.


Originally Posted by crazy5
Keep the same classes and rules for both the regionals and the nationals.
My $.02
Agreed for sure.

Originally Posted by Mr. devenwhite
I always ran mini because it was somewhat low budget.

17.5 brushless motors produce so much torque that we will be blowing through tires and gearboxes left and right.

also don't think you cant cheat with brushless motors. Trust me there are many many ways to do it.
1. How can it be considered somewhat low budget. I had to dump more than $200.00 extra dollars just to keep up.

2. No one around here has had any problems with either. A few people have been running the 17.5 on a regular basis.

3. Yea there is ways to cheat but not that many. If you know what your looking for it isn't a problem.

Originally Posted by Hawk6
please please Tamiya, release the 2009 TCS rules by November 30
Agreed, sooner would be alot better than later.

Originally Posted by RCGaryK
Spec- Keep it the same. Possibly no-LiPo to keep costs down to beginners, but in the long-run LiPo would be cheaper too.

Mini- 21.5 or 17.5, other than that, keep as it is now
Lipo is pretty much what everyone has switched to. I don't know many people who run nimh anymore. A orion 2400 lipo set as the spec, spec lipo is a great battery & cheap.

Originally Posted by Hebiki
btw... for people who missed it..... 10.5 is BEING PHASED OUT by ROAR. which means by this time next year, manufacturers might not support 10.5 motors anymore. who knows?

19T equivalent in brushless will be come the 13.5. and 27T becomes 17.5.
The switch like I said before from what I have heard hasn't been voted on yet. 10.5 is not being phased out either, it would be considered mod.

19T equivalent in brushless will still be the 10.5. Everyone knows a 13.5 doesn't really compare. A 13.5 is more equivalent to a 23-24 turn brushed motor. A 17.5 has and will always been the stock equivalent.

Originally Posted by Core Creations
Here goes my .02 Since I've had experience running all of the listed configurations...

GT1-13.5

GT2-17.5

GT3-Silver can (RPM limit, motor impound, Orion 2400 or 3200)

Mini 17.5 spec battery Orion 2400. We've tested this plenty and it caused NO EXTRA WEAR on the gears and you can fit the brushless ESCs inside...just need to take the time to figure it out. If all that matters is racing...this shouldn't be a big deal. Sandbagging gets on my nerves!!

F103RM-silver can (RPM limit, motor impound Orion 2400-3200)

Novice Keep current rules...I think this class works well
I agree with everything listed but would allow the 2400 orion lipo as the spec battery.

Originally Posted by RCGaryK
At a 2400, something I can't or wouldn't race on a day-in/day-out basis.
A 2400 is a great battery for most racing. Of course with the exception of mod, which I mean 8.5 and below.

Originally Posted by Core Creations
The 2400 would be for mini...and if you use more mah than that for weekly racing it's overkill. They already allowed the Orion 3200 as the only Lipo for mini in '08. So for those that run mini this would be something they could use year round.

And truthfully...everyone...or most everyone buys stuff to race at Tamiya races that they wouldn't run at their own club races. Not many people run GT3 style racing, and I KNOW most places don't run Tamiya tires (except mini).
Agreed, a 2400 for spec would be plenty enough and still be cheap. Using it year round for my fiancee's sportsman class would be perfect as well.

Yes my mini became ran at only the tcs regional as well as what has become of my fiancee's spec car. Same with both of our rally cars that get run at trackside when the tcs is here.

Originally Posted by Mr. devenwhite
Tamiya will charge $20 for 2 brush motors. That is much easier on your wallet than a $75 brushless motor. .
That $75.00 brushless motor will see more use that them silver cans. So in the long run it will be easier on your wallet.

Peace Aaron(W-W)
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Old 09-05-2008, 07:13 AM
  #9156  
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Originally Posted by Mr. devenwhite
If it is a race with a handout impounded motor the cost is very low. and everyone is runnig the same motor. tamiya will charge $20 for 2 brush motors. That is much easier on your wallet than a $75 brushless motor. 95 percent of the mini drivers have an esc that is strictly for brush motors. TCS is supposed to be a low cost racing series. Making all of the mini guys upgrade to a brushless system will dramatically decrease the number of entries. The last thing we need is another electric onroad class to die.

Many brushless motors have interchangeable parts. One manufacture can have a better stater than another. Another can have a better rotor because of a different axle and or magnet size. And another can have a sensor board with more timing in it. Some people will even use a rotor that is not roar approved. and most people working in tech don't know the difference nor do they want to take the motors appart due to time restraints. A lot of people don't even know how to tell the difference between a full turn and 1/2 turn motor. You could get people in a spec class running a 10turn instead of a 10.5turn. or even an 8.5 for that matter. What i'm trying to get at is that we don't need any Franken-motors to get every little bit of power that we can. People at sportsmen levels haven't really gone that far yet but knowing how people in the mini class can be, I think it would be only a matter of time.
First and foremost, even suggesting that Spec would be running motors like that is irresponsible and posted simply for shock value. I don't think anyone, including me, has stated that Spec should go to brushless. Spec isn't an issue when it comes to shenanigans with motors. It's Mini for the most part, and GT3 to a lesser extent. I am not saying we need to go to brushless because they have more speed. Quite the opposite. I am looking to go brushless to save money in the long run, simplify tech, and remove questionable motor techniques from the series.

Are you proposing returning to handout motors at a regional level as well or you're strictly addressing nationals? Also, you haven't addressed the "Its just as easy to cheat with brushless" argument. Motors with different specifications aren't "Cheater Motors". It's a tuning option. Look at 19T. If you state in the rules "You may use motors X, Y, and Z", just as was done with 19-turns in GT1, you solve many issues. For some tracks, the Trinity C2 was the motor of choice. For others the Reedy motor was the hot ticket. Still others would be the Orion. It's a tuning option. As far as the rotor size, ROAR has managed to address the issue in stating that only 12.5mm rotors are legal. As for your point of

Originally Posted by Mr. devenwhite
most people working in tech don't know the difference nor do they want to take the motors appart due to time restraints.
I will argue that teching a brushless motor is faster and takes less time than it does to supervise someone cleaning a Mabuchi. You tech the motor when someone checks in for the event. You mark the motor exactly as ROAR does to seal it off. If that motor comes thru tech and that seal is tampered with, that motor is INSTANTLY DQed. And if the tech crew doesn't know the difference, there's time between now and then to train them. If they don't want to learn, then they shouldn't be on the tech crew.

As far as the expense, I am going to lay this out one more time...

If you spend a little more initially it saves you money in the long run. Just looking at 17.5 combos, here's the pricing:

Novak GTB/17.5- $275
Tekin RS/17.5- $259
Losi Xcelorin/17.5- $229
LRP AI Brushless Reverse- $95 LRP Eraser 17.5 Motor- $76= $171!

You're going to buy an ESC for brushed, so you're invested between $75-$120 in most cases anyways. Plus $40 for 2 motors (your proposal) you're at $160! And at $160 you still need to break-in, clean, maintain, and tune those motors that are still open to cheating! This affects only 2 additional classes at this point too, GT3 and Mini. GT1 and GT2 have already allowed brushless and, by and large, most people have made the switch. Even the Novak Race has gone Brushless for Mini Coopers! I'm sorry, but cheating has gotten so out of hand that the cost is justifiable simply to eliminate the funny business.


For why no Ferrari, Fred had made that rule for GT2 2 years ago for Nationals, and last year as well. The goal was to make GT2 a visually different class from GT1 to help tell the difference from one class to another. I liked it a lot because you saw a ton of different bodies. From Skylines, Porsches, and even a Corvette or two, it made things more interesting and "forced" people to adapt.


I know a lot of people have mentioned the Orion 2400. My only concern is those who have already bought the 3200 for Mini now having to go out any buy a new pack. If it fits in the chassis, then it should be allowed. The 4800 doesn't fit, that's known for sure.
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Old 09-05-2008, 07:43 AM
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I'd be fine with any of the 3 Orions that fit the mini 2400-3200-3400 as long as there is a minimum weight. And of course...a 17.5...preferably 1 manufactuer only.
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Old 09-05-2008, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Core Creations
I'd be fine with any of the 3 Orions that fit the mini 2400-3200-3400 as long as there is a minimum weight. And of course...a 17.5...preferably 1 manufactuer only.
If you limit manufacturers you make it instantly more expensive for people to compete if they have to replace gear they already have. Do we limit stock motors in GT2 to only Epic-based motors? No. Do we limit the 19T's to Orion only? Nope. Why should this be different?
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Old 09-05-2008, 08:28 AM
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The reason to limit it is to limit the motors with adjustable timing...in mini that would be an advantage over the non-adjustable motors and then everyone without would go out and have to buy the adjustable timing motors to compete.
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Old 09-05-2008, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Core Creations
The reason to limit it is to limit the motors with adjustable timing...in mini that would be an advantage over the non-adjustable motors and then everyone without would go out and have to buy the adjustable timing motors to compete.
But if everyone can adjust the timing, does that not negate the advantage? And honest I don't know of a single sensored brushless motor that you can't adjust the timing on....
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Old 09-05-2008, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by RCGaryK
First and foremost, even suggesting that Spec would be running motors like that is irresponsible and posted simply for shock value. I don't think anyone, including me, has stated that Spec should go to brushless. Spec isn't an issue when it comes to shenanigans with motors. It's Mini for the most part, and GT3 to a lesser extent. I am not saying we need to go to brushless because they have more speed. Quite the opposite. I am looking to go brushless to save money in the long run, simplify tech, and remove questionable motor techniques from the series.

Are you proposing returning to handout motors at a regional level as well or you're strictly addressing nationals? Also, you haven't addressed the "Its just as easy to cheat with brushless" argument. Motors with different specifications aren't "Cheater Motors". It's a tuning option. Look at 19T. If you state in the rules "You may use motors X, Y, and Z", just as was done with 19-turns in GT1, you solve many issues. For some tracks, the Trinity C2 was the motor of choice. For others the Reedy motor was the hot ticket. Still others would be the Orion. It's a tuning option. As far as the rotor size, ROAR has managed to address the issue in stating that only 12.5mm rotors are legal. As for your point of



I will argue that teching a brushless motor is faster and takes less time than it does to supervise someone cleaning a Mabuchi. You tech the motor when someone checks in for the event. You mark the motor exactly as ROAR does to seal it off. If that motor comes thru tech and that seal is tampered with, that motor is INSTANTLY DQed. And if the tech crew doesn't know the difference, there's time between now and then to train them. If they don't want to learn, then they shouldn't be on the tech crew.

As far as the expense, I am going to lay this out one more time...

If you spend a little more initially it saves you money in the long run. Just looking at 17.5 combos, here's the pricing:

Novak GTB/17.5- $275
Tekin RS/17.5- $259
Losi Xcelorin/17.5- $229
LRP AI Brushless Reverse- $95 LRP Eraser 17.5 Motor- $76= $171!

You're going to buy an ESC for brushed, so you're invested between $75-$120 in most cases anyways. Plus $40 for 2 motors (your proposal) you're at $160! And at $160 you still need to break-in, clean, maintain, and tune those motors that are still open to cheating! This affects only 2 additional classes at this point too, GT3 and Mini. GT1 and GT2 have already allowed brushless and, by and large, most people have made the switch. Even the Novak Race has gone Brushless for Mini Coopers! I'm sorry, but cheating has gotten so out of hand that the cost is justifiable simply to eliminate the funny business.


For why no Ferrari, Fred had made that rule for GT2 2 years ago for Nationals, and last year as well. The goal was to make GT2 a visually different class from GT1 to help tell the difference from one class to another. I liked it a lot because you saw a ton of different bodies. From Skylines, Porsches, and even a Corvette or two, it made things more interesting and "forced" people to adapt.


I know a lot of people have mentioned the Orion 2400. My only concern is those who have already bought the 3200 for Mini now having to go out any buy a new pack. If it fits in the chassis, then it should be allowed. The 4800 doesn't fit, that's known for sure.

you didn't metion the axle size. you just proved that someone that works in the industry wouldn't even be qualified catch people cheating. That usually makes a bigger difference in RPM than the rotor size. I'm not saying that different motors are cheater motors but when you start making a motor with components from 5 different motors from different manufactures that's when it get out of hand. and if you run a differnent wind than everyone else and make it look like the spec motor, everyones going to start doing the same thing and thats when things really get out of hand. And as you said, people in mini are the biggest cheaters of them all. except me. Also, i'm not convinced that brushless will save people money in the long run. Those things seem to have a terrible failure rate. I remember Timmy blew up a motor in every round at our regional race. Not 1 silver can motor blew up this year at the nats. I know that there were at least a couple brushless motors that blew up, and that was the class with the least entries. Sure you can get a brushless combo for around $200 but the mini kits come with an ESC and a motor. and with silver can motors a better ESC doesn't really make much of a difference in power. Brushless is a little different. If you want to go fast, you need to buy the best ESC and they don't come with a motor. and everyone will be buying 17.5's from all different manufactures just to find the best one. Mini doesn't need to be as expensive as touring car. And you guys wonder why touring car died.

yes i am proposing the use of handout impound motors at the regional level. That is the only way to completly eliminate funny business. brushless motors would not remove questionable motor techniques from the series. Trust me people in mini will find new techniques.
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Old 09-05-2008, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by crazy5
oops
i was just messing with you
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Old 09-05-2008, 09:47 AM
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Well..I have the Novak 10.5-13.5-17.5 and not one of them can.

And if others have to go out and buy a motor because of that, then those people are forced to go out and buy stuff they wouldn't have normally bought.
Originally Posted by RCGaryK
But if everyone can adjust the timing, does that not negate the advantage? And honest I don't know of a single sensored brushless motor that you can't adjust the timing on....
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Old 09-05-2008, 09:51 AM
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If mini is popular enough and also the root of all evil, why not have two classes, one for BL or whatever, and one low-tech "fun" silver can impound class? Mini GT-1 and Mini GT-2
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Old 09-05-2008, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by stitchy
If mini is popular enough and also the root of all evil, why not have two classes, one for BL or whatever, and one low-tech "fun" silver can impound class? Mini GT-1 and Mini GT-2
Now here is an idea man. we could have one class that is spec and another that is almost like open mod with no motor rules other than the motor has to be marked as a 17.5.
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