Go Back  R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Racing Forum
Tamiya Championship Series >

Tamiya Championship Series

Like Tree828Likes

Tamiya Championship Series

Old 09-04-2008, 11:02 AM
  #9136  
Tech Master
iTrader: (52)
 
Hawk6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Freeport, IL
Posts: 1,578
Trader Rating: 52 (100%+)
Default

Whatever is decided, hopefully Tamiya won't forget the average local racer who looks at a TCS regional race as THE big race event. Of course, Tamiya also can't forget the TCS die-hards that will attend multiple regional races plus the nationals. It's going to be tough to please everyone.

And, whatever is decided: brushless, lipo, etc., please please Tamiya, release the 2009 TCS rules by November 30 so everyone has time to buy the new equipment and try it out, and for kids (young and old) to put it on their Christmas lists.

Thanks.
Hawk6 is offline  
Old 09-04-2008, 11:05 AM
  #9137  
Tech Champion
iTrader: (3)
 
RCGaryK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 7,331
Trader Rating: 3 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by MD
Mini is the most popular class, why change it?
Because it is the class where the most funny-business has been occurring in terms of "creative interpretation of the rules"

Originally Posted by Mr. devenwhite
first of all, those esc's are really expensive.
See my post on the previous pages on this. You can get a brushless system for under $230 easily and never have to touch it again. Compare this to $70-$100 for an "advanced-sport" ESC and 4-6 silver can motors at $25 a pop to find that one "magic bullet". [/QUOTE]


Originally Posted by Mr. devenwhite
secondly, try fitting a GTB or a sphere into the mini cooper chassis. and if you put the ESC on top of the chassis the car's going to handle really bad.
Change your setup. The guys at SIR have run mega-Mini Enduros for 4-5 years and run brushless in there.

Originally Posted by Mr. devenwhite
the 17.5 brushless motors produce so much torque that we will be blowing through tires and gearboxes left and right. and with the very limited lifetime of these new tires, mini is going to get really expensive to race. and do i really have to mention the never-ending "tranny blowing" jokes that would come from this.
Then go 21.5. Or go to a different tire that provides less grip and more slip.

Originally Posted by Mr. devenwhite
also don't think you cant cheat with brushless motors. Trust me there are many many ways to do it. and people in the mini class will defiantly do it. If every regional race is run in the same format as the nationals with motor impound, cheating will become impossible.
I've heard this claim and never seen anyone back it up with evidence. Please provide some.

Originally Posted by crazy5
GT1 open mod, no limit on batteries except keeping them 2c.
You mean 2S

Originally Posted by crazy5
GT2 13.5, same battery rules as GT1
GT2 has always been the "Stock" Class. 13.5 isn't equal to a stock motor.

Originally Posted by crazy5
GT3 Silver can (why mess with tradition), 3600 2c lipo and say a 5.4 gear limit
To eliminate the questionable motor techniques, even the playing field, and reduce the amount of work you'll need to do to prep and maintain your motors (Sorry Doc). I am also against the 3600 LiPo rule. I have a 3200 but also have 2 5000's. The reduction in capacity doesn't provide any benefit to the end racer or remove a competitive advantage.


Originally Posted by crazy5
F1's are real fast with the silver cans but they could go to a 17.5 as well
Direct Drive cars are much faster with brushless when compared to brushed than sedans. You'd have to go with at least a 21.5 if not keep it brushed.


Originally Posted by crazy5
Keep the same classes and rules for both the regionals and the nationals.
My $.02
Agree

Originally Posted by TeamB&B
All we care about is GT1. It is also great to run GT2 as a second class in the regional races assuming it remains the same 13.5. Or slowed to 17.5 to please racers who want to go faster than GT3 (silver can), but say 13.5 is too fast.

therefore:
GT1 - 10.5/19T

The TRF 415/416 is a chassis designed for MOD racing. Having a motor slower than a 10.5 is a complete waste. GT1 should showcase the expert drivers. Therefore MOD speeds should be the goal. You cannot develop a Tamiya Factory driver via a 13.5 motor class.

I talked to Steven Bortolotti (winner of TCS Nats GT1). In Canada, he practices and races MOD. Racing a 10.5 at the TCS Nats was a walk in the park. ... and it showed extremely well. I can see from the videos that once he established a comfortable lead, he was only driving 8/10th.

Take a look at the top class in HPI Racing Challege series:
Electric Expert
-HPI Sport/Pro 2/3/4, E10, Sprint, Sprint 2; HB Cyclone chassis.
-No motor limit (brushless allowed).
-Spec tire: #61147 HB Gumballs Worlds Spec Racing Slick Tire/Wheelset.
-Chassis option parts allowed.


Does TCS want to be viewed as the wimpy race series?

Also, at the Nats, the GT1 racers were the only ones that never complained about the other guys motor. Everyone in GT1 had enough power to get the job done. Consistency, skill and setup were the only factor. ... except for choice of racing bodies.

In racing, especially RC racing, the slower the class, the wider the variable in speeds within the same class.
Speed does not equate to great racing. What speed does is widen the gap due to differences in skill. TCS has always been intended for the sport-level racer, not the next ROAR (or current) ROAR national champion. I would actually like to see Fred scale back to what it was 3-4 years ago and disallow anyone with any sponsorship at all. I realize this would potentially disqualify me due to my career choice, but I would rather do that than see more and more guys feel they need the backing of sponsors to compete. And, while its been said that only GT1 can have sponsored drivers, there's been guys in GT2 as well over the past few years.

Originally Posted by 240Z
The true budget class is F103. And it works just fine with a silver can. Leave it as it is thank you very much.
The class is inexpensive due to the simple nature of the cars, but it is NOT a beginner class. Just make sure you don't confuse budget for entry-level.

So what are my suggestions:

GT1- Keep it the same. As someone else noted, the GT1 guys were happy with power and performance at Nats and regionals. At most, impose a tire limit at Nationals, but even that's a stretch. I would like to see the Legacy body be legalized too, just for another option

GT2- 17.5, any 2-cell LiPo and... Allow the 415/416/dual-deck chassis. I would like a return to the No-NSX/No-Ferrari rule. I thought it brought an entirely cool prospect to the class.

GT3- 21.5, Any 2-cell LiPo, tub chassis only, and again, no Ferrari/No NSX

Spec- Keep it the same. Possibly no-LiPo to keep costs down to beginners, but in the long-run LiPo would be cheaper too.

Mini- 21.5 or 17.5, other than that, keep as it is now
RCGaryK is offline  
Old 09-04-2008, 11:30 AM
  #9138  
MD
Tech Champion
iTrader: (136)
 
MD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Illinois
Posts: 5,723
Trader Rating: 136 (100%+)
Default

I think that for most drivers regionals are the big races of the year for them. I hope Tamiya tries to find a way of satisfying different interests. In Tamiya's own words, "itís a low cost/high excitement series." i still think there is room for a low budget class, box stock with bearings. I am not referring to spec class for rookies. Minis are the most populsr and it would be one of the best choices. You can buy an M03M with an esc for $110. Add your radio and some inexpensive batteries of your choice, and you can participate. Set up classes for brushless drivers. For a lot us brushless is too expensive. Also you have to consider the cost of travel to a regional race. I know the arguments for the cost of brushless over the long run and they're valid. But, I think to grow the popularity of Tamiya there needs to be a way to get more low budget drivers involved.
MD is offline  
Old 09-04-2008, 12:10 PM
  #9139  
Tech Lord
iTrader: (26)
 
Hebiki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Chino, CA
Posts: 12,922
Trader Rating: 26 (100%+)
Default

THATS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT!!!! lots of discussion.

btw... for people who missed it..... 10.5 is BEING PHASED OUT by ROAR. which means by this time next year, manufacturers might not support 10.5 motors anymore. who knows?

19T equivalent in brushless will be come the 13.5. and 27T becomes 17.5.

for the past 2-3 years.. GT1 has always been 19T for regionals (based off of ROAR rules) and 23T at nats.. with this year being the first year for 10.5
Hebiki is offline  
Old 09-04-2008, 12:24 PM
  #9140  
Tech Champion
iTrader: (110)
 
Core Creations's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Back in the booth
Posts: 6,300
Trader Rating: 110 (100%+)
Default

Here goes my .02 Since I've had experience running all of the listed configurations...

GT1-13.5

GT2-17.5

GT3-Silver can (RPM limit, motor impound, Orion 2400 or 3200)

Mini 17.5 spec battery Orion 2400. We've tested this plenty and it caused NO EXTRA WEAR on the gears and you can fit the brushless ESCs inside...just need to take the time to figure it out. If all that matters is racing...this shouldn't be a big deal. Sandbagging gets on my nerves!!

F103RM-silver can (RPM limit, motor impound Orion 2400-3200)

Novice Keep current rules...I think this class works well

Other than that I'd also propose a mandatory MOVE-UP to those that have won a certain amount of times in any lower class...say 5-8 wins in GT3...you have to run GT2...5-8 wins in GT2....time to move to GT1 . Or allow them to continue the class with a "Prize goes to the next in line" rule.This shouldn't be an issue if racing and fun is all that matters. Sandbaggers get on my nerves!!
Core Creations is offline  
Old 09-04-2008, 12:49 PM
  #9141  
Tech Champion
iTrader: (3)
 
RCGaryK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 7,331
Trader Rating: 3 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by Core Creations
GT3-Silver can (RPM limit, motor impound, Orion 2400 or 3200)
F103RM-silver can (RPM limit, motor impound Orion 2400-3200)
Unless you're doing handout motors at regionals again there's no reason or point to impound. By limiting the batteries to 2400 or 3200 you also increase the cost to compete because you're going to have to buy a pack specifically for that class.

I also disagree with the "Move Up" proposal. For TCS Nats, GT2's almost always a sealed endbell class. Most of us don't have the option of running GT3-style rules week in and week out, so the only time we can compete under those rules is a regional. I can test all I want, but I tend to experiment more and try new things when there's something on the line.. plus it also gives me a carrot to chase after too. It also discourages people running multiple classes. Take Lee Passehl. He runs GT2 and GT1. He's won the GT2 class at Trackside for like 5-years straight...at least. He's also won GT1 a number of times. By your standards he'd only be able to race GT1. Why penalize someone for being successful? (Wait a sec, sounds like the presidential thread here...right Derf? lol)
RCGaryK is offline  
Old 09-04-2008, 01:09 PM
  #9142  
Tech Champion
iTrader: (110)
 
Core Creations's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Back in the booth
Posts: 6,300
Trader Rating: 110 (100%+)
Default

What you would need to do is bring 2 new Johnson motors and submit them for impound upon signup. The 2400 or 3200 don't increase the cost to race. C'mon, both of us know a $35 for 2400 and $60 for the 3200 is far less than what NIMH racers spend in a year....far far less.

And I also suggested that they could continue to run, but prizes would be awarded to the next in line. If he has won 8 times, then yes....it's time to move up. He could continue to race in GT2...but could no longer claim prizes. But once again, brushless motors and motor impounds will go a long way to help everybody have a fair chance.

Believe me, I like finding that magic combination too....I have lots and lots of silver cans, but I'd still prefer to sell them all and run only brushless.
Core Creations is offline  
Old 09-04-2008, 01:18 PM
  #9143  
Tech Champion
iTrader: (3)
 
RCGaryK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 7,331
Trader Rating: 3 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by Core Creations
What you would need to do is bring 2 new Johnson motors and submit them for impound upon signup. The 2400 or 3200 don't increase the cost to race. C'mon, both of us know a $35 for 2400 and $60 for the 3200 is far less than what NIMH racers spend in a year....far far less.

And I also suggested that they could continue to run, but prizes would be awarded to the next in line. If he has won 8 times, then yes....it's time to move up. He could continue to race in GT2...but could no longer claim prizes. But once again, brushless motors and motor impounds will go a long way to help everybody have a fair chance.

Believe me, I like finding that magic combination too....I have lots and lots of silver cans, but I'd still prefer to sell them all and run only brushless.
Define new. I can take a couple motors, tune them up and make them look "new". I think if you're going to have a handout motor, an impound makes a ton of sense. If it's BYOM then it doesn't. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be opposed to handouts again. But then I would want to do something similar to what was done at Nats. The motors stay in tech, no break-in, etc.

And if I already own 2 5000's, I have invested in batteries. Now for me to participate under your suggested rules, I have batteries I would use day-in and day-out normally that are worthless and, at a 2400, something I can't or wouldn't race on a day-in/day-out basis. And I am pro-LiPo so I am not suggestion we need to go back that way.
RCGaryK is offline  
Old 09-04-2008, 01:26 PM
  #9144  
Tech Master
iTrader: (52)
 
Hawk6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Freeport, IL
Posts: 1,578
Trader Rating: 52 (100%+)
Default

Here's a crazy idea:

All TCS regional races will be 2 day events.

Saturday will be the "big regional race" for the local/casual/newbie/kid racers:
> Spec class: silver can, NiMh/NiCd
> GT3: silver can, NiMH/NiCd or lipo with min. weight limit
> Mini: silver can or maybe brushless
> other "fun class": rally at Trackside, for example
The usual great Tamiya prizes for 1st, 2nd, or 3rd
The intent of this race is fun, PR for Tamiya, and to reward the loyal Tamiya supporters who never plan to race at a national event.

Sunday will be the "Nationals qualifier race" for the serious racers:
> GT1
> GT2
> F103
> brushless, lipo, whatever - you serious racers decide
The free prizes were given away on Saturday, so no car kits, but how many winners of GT1 really want a Mini kit of a 1/16th scale Frog anyway?

Maybe you run a mini class on Sunday too for the super-serious races, plus the top 5 finishers on Saturday??? Just a thought.

Although more work for Tamiya and the host tracks, this would separate the "fun competitive" racing from the "fun super-competitive" racing. Even though it was 2 years ago, my son didn't enjoy getting beat in spec by a guy that was in the GT2 B Main, and another that was in the Mini A main. That's not was "novice/spec" class is supposed to be about. Maybe a format like this would eliminate that -- literally separate "the men from the boys".

I know this isn't perfect and may create other problems, just thinking "out of the box". Whaccha think?
Hawk6 is offline  
Old 09-04-2008, 01:53 PM
  #9145  
Tech Champion
iTrader: (110)
 
Core Creations's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Back in the booth
Posts: 6,300
Trader Rating: 110 (100%+)
Default

The 2400 would be for mini...and if you use more mah than that for weekly racing it's overkill. They already allowed the Orion 3200 as the only Lipo for mini in '08. We run 10 minute mains locally in mini and never use more than 1200mah. So for those that run mini this would be something they could use year round.

And truthfully...everyone...or most everyone buys stuff to race at Tamiya races that they wouldn't run at their own club races. Not many people run GT3 style racing, and I KNOW most places don't run Tamiya tires (except mini). I can't complain about buying a $40 battery when I spend $250 on tires that I certainly won't race weekly. I also went out and bought 2 Novak GTXs for TCS when I run brushless exclusively weekly. It's a price we pay to race.

And yes I said 2 "new" as in untouched...or easier yet...buy them from Tamiya once at the race sight. And I also mentioned an RPM limit. Just like Nationals. And they stay in tech until your heat. And then immediately returned to tech after the race.

All this wouldn't be needed if some weren't sneeking extra magnets in motors and such and just had a gentlemans agreement to run out of box motors....but we all know that's never gonna happen. Maybe instill a winning motor claim for $30...that would keep racers from running 40k rpm silver cans that they searched 10 years for and then took 100 hours of breakin and tuning before raced.
Core Creations is offline  
Old 09-04-2008, 03:25 PM
  #9146  
Tech Adept
 
Mr. devenwhite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 241
Default

Originally Posted by RCGaryK
Because it is the class where the most funny-business has been occurring in terms of "creative interpretation of the rules"

See my post on the previous pages on this. You can get a brushless system for under $230 easily and never have to touch it again. Compare this to $70-$100 for an "advanced-sport" ESC and 4-6 silver can motors at $25 a pop to find that one "magic bullet".

I've heard this claim and never seen anyone back it up with evidence. Please provide some.
If it is a race with a handout impounded motor the cost is very low. and everyone is runnig the same motor. tamiya will charge $20 for 2 brush motors. That is much easier on your wallet than a $75 brushless motor. 95 percent of the mini drivers have an esc that is strictly for brush motors. TCS is supposed to be a low cost racing series. Making all of the mini guys upgrade to a brushless system will dramatically decrease the number of entries. The last thing we need is another electric onroad class to die.

Many brushless motors have interchangeable parts. One manufacture can have a better stater than another. Another can have a better rotor because of a different axle and or magnet size. And another can have a sensor board with more timing in it. Some people will even use a rotor that is not roar approved. and most people working in tech don't know the difference nor do they want to take the motors appart due to time restraints. A lot of people don't even know how to tell the difference between a full turn and 1/2 turn motor. You could get people in a spec class running a 10turn instead of a 10.5turn. or even an 8.5 for that matter. What i'm trying to get at is that we don't need any Franken-motors to get every little bit of power that we can. People at sportsmen levels haven't really gone that far yet but knowing how people in the mini class can be, I think it would be only a matter of time.
Mr. devenwhite is offline  
Old 09-04-2008, 03:53 PM
  #9147  
Tech Master
iTrader: (1)
 
linger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Retired
Posts: 1,132
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Hey Devin,
Stop chatting on this board and start practicing for the TRF class in Japan. You ARE going aren't you?
linger is offline  
Old 09-04-2008, 05:40 PM
  #9148  
Tech Adept
 
Mr. devenwhite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 241
Default

Originally Posted by linger
Hey Devin,
Stop chatting on this board and start practicing for the TRF class in Japan. You ARE going aren't you?
hell yeah!! i need to make everyone fear the americans again
Mr. devenwhite is offline  
Old 09-04-2008, 06:05 PM
  #9149  
Tech Addict
iTrader: (8)
 
Herc Driver's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Arizona
Posts: 658
Trader Rating: 8 (100%+)
Default

Why no ferrari? I say yes ferrari, yes lamborogini (sp), I love the 911 and VW bug bodies...because I like the look...I like TCS because it isn't ROAR telling me what bodies I can run...its up to my choice.
Herc Driver is offline  
Old 09-04-2008, 06:44 PM
  #9150  
Tech Fanatic
iTrader: (42)
 
subaru73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Auburn
Posts: 907
Trader Rating: 42 (100%+)
Default tcs

how about 6.5 for gt1?
subaru73 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.