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Old 08-27-2008, 08:28 AM
  #9046  
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Originally Posted by MD
RCGaryk- I think the price list you included supports my contention that the additional expense will turn people away from participating in a regional race if it is required. You can buy a M03M Swift from Ultimate Hobbies for $105 plus shipping or RTR TT01 for $140. With these cars you can participate. I know that some people don't want these kind drivers participating in the TCS. I believe there should be room for everyone. I think there should a sportsman class or a redefined spec class. The more people that are involved the more the series will grow. When look at Ebay there are some brushless systems that are even cheaper and according to RCMini.net some are good. There is no doubt that if you're going to race a lot brushless is an excellent idea. I think that if you get people involved some will jump into the higher levels of competition, but you have to get them there first. This just my view from a sportsman level driver who attends some regional rces. I think that at the national level you're stepping up into a higher level of competition and the requirements could be or should be different. Your points are stated well and I understand your point of view.
I'm not saying make Spec brushless, quite the opposite actually. As I stated, leave Spec/Sportsman brushed as many of the cars in that class come with a budget-level ESC. GT1 and GT2 already allow brushless. I hope that Fred realigns the rules for GT2 to match ROAR and move from a 13.5 to a 17.5. My interest isn't just to attract new blood, but to help retain people. In the current environment people are more likely to get frustrated from a lack of power or know-how in regards to silver cans. In my "perfect world" this is what I'd like to see:

GT1- 10.5
GT2- 17.5
GT3- 21.5
Mini- 17.5
Spec- Silver Can
F103- Silver Can

I also see the brushless argument as a similar one to LiPo. The cost of 1 LiPo pack is significantly more than a sport-style stick pack. However racers have seen the inherent value of LiPo in that you no-longer need an insane amount of support equipment, you only need one battery in many cases, and it (somewhat) levels the playing field. Sure, someone might have a 27C battery vs my 25C. I see that being similar to multiple manufactures 17.5's. One might be a little torquier, one a littler more RPM, but in the end it all evens out.
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Old 08-27-2008, 08:48 AM
  #9047  
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I think retaining people in the series is equally as important as attracting new blood. I think there should be a happy medium for retention of current drivers and bringing in new blood. I don't think there's much doubt that minis are the most popular class. I would like to see it split for the cheap guys like my self and the competitive drivers like yourself. I think the F103 was an opportunity lost by Tamiya. If they allowed any Tamiya touring car body with the Tamiya rubber tires I think there might have been a bigger turnout. The Courage body is great to look at, but some what impractical in the r/c world. Now it's going to be an F! format. That's cool but another change, different tires, some different parts, and another body. I hope it increases the participation in that class.
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Old 08-27-2008, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by MD
I think retaining people in the series is equally as important as attracting new blood. I think there should be a happy medium for retention of current drivers and bringing in new blood. I don't think there's much doubt that minis are the most popular class. I would like to see it split for the cheap guys like my self and the competitive drivers like yourself.
This was my first TCS and ran mini. I am an on-road beginner and I am a cheap mofo. Therefore, I liked the silver cans.

The "expert" mini drivers should be able to run BL or something faster and get the big prizes and TT-01's they covet.
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Old 08-27-2008, 09:36 AM
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I am enjoying this discussion on brushless vs. Silver can. I donít drive mini as my driving skills with a mini are less that my abilities with the F103 (and that aintí saying much). If I wanted to drive mini, the highest RPM motor or even a BL would not put me in the A main with the talent I saw this weekend.

I would imagine that more that a few of the B and C main folks who are in it for the fun would have difficulty putting down even $150 for a BL just to be able to participate at a regional level. Does the decision have to be so binary? Why not open up the rules to run both? Would it be that hard to do some testing to see at what RPM a silver can will perform on par with a given brushless and set that as the ceiling for the silver can? Once people get hooked and want to take it to the next level, that BL investment decision will be easy to make. On race day, tech only needs to dyno any silver cans that run the top 3 spots. This would eliminate some of the drama by putting the silver can modifications back ďabove the tableĒ as long as it meets the RPM restrictions. The BL advocates would be happy and Doc can spend his retirement tinkering with silver cans to produce more red dots for any one just north of cheap.
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Old 08-27-2008, 09:46 AM
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Has no one paid attention to what goes on with brushless? Gearing the piss out of them and changing rotors every run, or changing up the speedo? Let's face it the only way to get truly spec racing is to have the cars fully prepped equally by one person so they are the same in every way. Not realistic. We live in a world where Nascar teams try to pu jet fuel in their motors for an advantage. It sounds like Tamiya went above and beyond the call of duty as far as teching went and they deserve your gratitude. For those who think it could be better, come up with solutions, but don't count on brushless. Brushless just has different ways for drivers to get an advantage.
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Old 08-27-2008, 09:57 AM
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The main plus of brushless is even though there are variations in performance....it's very very minimal...much less than the variations in silver cans. There are people here locally that do all the tricks to make there brushless motors faster...and guess what, they are no faster than my out of the box, non tampered Novak 17.5. The same one that's been in my car for the last year. And it's just as fast as it was on the first run.
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Old 08-27-2008, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Core Creations
The main plus of brushless is even though there are variations in performance....it's very very minimal...much less than the variations in silver cans. There are people here locally that do all the tricks to make there brushless motors faster...and guess what, they are no faster than my out of the box, non tampered Novak 17.5. The same one that's been in my car for the last year. And it's just as fast as it was on the first run.
Then they aren't doing all the tricks.
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Old 08-27-2008, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by westerdude42
Then they aren't doing all the tricks.
You are so incredibly right. I can remember a time when people were saying you couldn't do much to a silvercan cause they were "sealed".
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Old 08-27-2008, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by RCGaryK
GT1- 10.5
GT2- 17.5
GT3- 21.5
Mini- 17.5
Spec- Silver Can
F103- Silver Can
Gary,

isn't ROAR "phasing" out 10.5 for 2009...and making 13.5 the replacement for "19T?" if thats the case (thats what i remember hearing...) then the classes would align like this..

GT1: 13.5
GT2: 17.5
GT3: 21.5

btw... brushless... brushed.... combine them both with lipo, nimh.. YOU know and I KNOW... there WILL STILL BE people who will bitch about it.

just tell me when and where. as long as Tamiya runs its TCS series, my racing career will continue regardless of motor/battery combination.

i vote for HANDOUT EXPERT BUILT MINI COOPERS NEXT YEAR. throw in your receiver, then drive it.
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Old 08-27-2008, 10:51 AM
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So Nova who specifically are you calling the cheater here. Post a name instead of just posting smilies and the rest.

On the White's car what they did for car setup and speed has been posted. If you did not catch it. The car was etup to roll through the turns very well. If you watched the live feed you could hear how Dylan's car did not drop RPM much through the sweeper the rest of the field loaded up the car pretty damn hard. They also ran a very full tire insert on an S-Grip tire that increased the tire diameter. Guess what happend yep better rollout. Did they cheat not one bit. Everyone has run some sort of stuffed insert for the last 6yrs I was down there. Did they do it on an S Grip nope on an A the belted tire keep the diameter the same. Smart creative thinking absolutely.

Tony cheating? Name what he did...At SIR's TCS I saw a car that carried mjor corner speed and was very efficient, Tony has had 5months to refine it to the local track too......

Steve cheating same here.....

I could not make it down this year but kept up with phone calls and watched the live feed. From what I heard and saw great driving and great setups. The tech was the tightest it has ever been.

If you want to call it cheating the local advantage reared its head this year. With 2 days of setup time the out of towners had a harder go of it this year. You cannot legislate that though. I can;t tell you how many people were suprised at the S-Grip tire choice in Mini. I also heard alot of down faces were from the Southern contingent they could not figure out why the speed differences were there "they have to be cheating"

I was accused of it all the year I won myself. I asked Dave Beale to tear every bit of my car down in full view of everyone so there were no secrets and not a chance that anyone could accuse me of hiding all the parts that were"claimed" to be on my car. You name it gears, tweeked comm etc they all were on the car. Give some credit here to the winners they worked hard. The people who thought they "had" to cheat to get on par were just wrong and not prepared. Do some homework learn from what "you" did wrong and fix it for next year.

Congrats to all of this years winners. Tony has been a longitme supporter and has gotten faster every year. Dylan I have watched for along time in my travels down to Tamiya along with him coming up to Seattle. Again an excellent driver who has grown and progressed well. Steve I have never met but again congrats, kick Whitey and Tom in the shin for me. Have fun in Japan you'll remember the trip for along time to come.
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Old 08-27-2008, 11:10 AM
  #9056  
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I think it's great on the Tamiya Mini Cooper thread the way people share set up ideas. I wish Tamiya would ask the winner in each category to share their ideas if they want to. I think it's amazing the way drivers squeeze the performance out the minis. We've tried to start a mini class at our local parking lot series. Even at our elementary level the performance is very good and most importantly we have fun because the cars are so equal. Except for one, guy. He must be cheating. Just kidding, he just drives better. In following this thread it's great to see the passion and enthusiasm for this series.
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Old 08-27-2008, 11:38 AM
  #9057  
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Originally Posted by Nova F1 Racer
Sounds like the cheaters beat the system......

I remember when cheaters were actually held accountable for their actions...

Just another reason why this hobby is in a slow death spiral......


And I really did think the TCS would be the last place cheating would be a problem...
Who are you calling a cheater? I'm pretty sure that Fred sent all of those guys home. All of the winners won fair and square.

This weekend's race was an example of how all spec racing should be. If Fred keeps it up, TCS is going to continue to grow. This type of racing format is what we have needed for a long time. Fred should write a book on how to host an RC race.
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Old 08-27-2008, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. devenwhite
Who are you calling a cheater? I'm pretty sure that Fred sent all of those guys home. All of the winners won fair and square.

This weekend's race was an example of how all spec racing should be. If Fred keeps it up, TCS is going to continue to grow. This type of racing format is what we have needed for a long time. Fred should write a book on how to host an RC race.
hey deven.. didnt i call it a week before? "this car is going to japan". dylan's car definitely had stupid fast cornerspeed. same with Tony's car. ZERO scrub entering a corner. even more speed coming out.

it was definitely a clinic in GT2.

steve's car was very good also. smooth and used every ounce of power from his 10.5
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Old 08-27-2008, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Hebiki
hey deven.. didnt i call it a week before? "this car is going to japan". dylan's car definitely had stupid fast cornerspeed. same with Tony's car. ZERO scrub entering a corner. even more speed coming out.

it was definitely a clinic in GT2.

steve's car was very good also. smooth and used every ounce of power from his 10.5
exactly, the people that knew how to set up a car had the fastest cars. Power had nothing to do with anything.

on that note replicas of dylan's car as well as my car are available for sale. PM me for details.
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Old 08-27-2008, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. devenwhite
exactly, the people that knew how to set up a car had the fastest cars. Power had nothing to do with anything.

on that note replicas of dylan's car as well as my car are available for sale. PM me for details.
Buying a replica of Dylans car ain't going to help unless you can package his driving skills to accompany the car. My car was really,really good and Dylan could have won with it. Not denigrating your car as it was the best handling car out there, but "The Kid" plain flat put on everyone else in the driving dept.


Congrats on the win and I thought the chaperone was the one who kept the one being chaperoned out of trouble. Something wrong here.
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