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Tamiya Championship Series

Old 08-26-2008, 08:38 PM
  #9031  
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I hope that when all the discussions of motors are held that the average driver who supports Tamiya is not forgotten. There are a lot of parking lot racers who would like to continue to participate in regional TCS races which are near them. Many love the minis. You can buy a Swift for around $110 with an esc and you're ready to go. Brushless is the future and it may great for Nationals. I am not talking about spec or rookie drivers. I know a brushless system is a smart investment, many people will question that investment when they look at travel costs to attend regional races. It sounds like and looks like the Nationals were great. Congratulations to all the winners and to those who were behind when time ran out.
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Old 08-26-2008, 09:17 PM
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Brandon, Call me or check you PMs.
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Old 08-26-2008, 09:33 PM
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Congrats to all the winners and good luck in Japan.
I for one am a big proponent of the brushless system. Are there ways to gain an advantage using brushless? Probably, but there is far more parity with brushless than with brushed. And rather than spending countless hours on the dyno, it would seem to me that the advantage would be found on the track testing profiles. To the best of my knowledge when you play with timing on the brushless motors, what you gain on one end, you lose on the other, so to me its a wash. The thought that you need a "motor guy" to run the Mabuchi class to me is just plain dumb. And that is not a shot at Doc , he was providing a service because there is a demand, totally understandable. True the brushless systems are a big hit up front, but after two or three seasons, the system has pretty much paid for itself. Besides that, it helps the newbies in that its one less mystery to solve. If Tamiya continues to run the Mabuchi as a motor package, I think they should do fixed ratios, and I know the first thing that will come out is the no to chassis have the same final, drive. Ok fair enough, then establish a baseline for a given track, and mandate that all cars be within 1 or 2 percent of the baseline. If you combine that with the motor standards, then it really comes down to line and chassis setup.As for the cheating, if you need to win that bad where you would compromise the integrity of an event by cheating, then you deserve what you get if you get caught. I run to the letter of the rules at every race I go to, so I have nothing to worry about, I would rather lose honestly(and have) then have to resort to cheating to win a car kit.
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Old 08-26-2008, 09:46 PM
  #9034  
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Originally Posted by 414MPH
As I stated, it is mearly a suggestion, not an argument or complaint.
Marty, I was complimenting you on the thought and reasoning. In any discussion where you have differing opinions, the forwarding of that opinion becomes an arguement, by definition.. Frankly, I support your argument cause it seems like a good solution. I was just posting some numbers to give people some more food for thought.

I'm like you in that I do discussions, but don't do arguements. If people want to fight they just have to go elsewhere.
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Old 08-26-2008, 09:47 PM
  #9035  
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I think brushless is great and solves a lot of problems. But, you will not attract new participnats if they have to invest in an expensive sytem. When they are getting involved they don't want spend a lot of money in a hobby that they just getting started in. For the budget racer it's a big expenes also. Especially, when you consider travel costs. National events may be different.
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Old 08-26-2008, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Nova F1 Racer
Sounds like the cheaters beat the system......

I remember when cheaters were actually held accountable for their actions...

Just another reason why this hobby is in a slow death spiral......


And I really did think the TCS would be the last place cheating would be a problem...
I'll have to disagree.

The fastest racer's won, period.

For those who were present at "the last supper", refering to the post-tech tables that were set up after the A mains which had a minimum of 4 auditors. We were told to place our cars on the table based on your car number, and not to touch. When "General George" gave the OK, you removed the motor (above the table) cleaned and lubed (with provided spray and lube), and placed your motor in the original box. You were then allowed to go marshall. Felt like I was having USMC flashbacks...nice work George.

The process was excellent.

The fastest racer's won, period. (and yes, I won't be surprised if there is a maximum mini tire diameter rule next year in Mini....nice job White's)

For those who punched their ticket, you earned it. Congrats!

John
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Old 08-26-2008, 10:02 PM
  #9037  
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Another item to note, not mentioned all A-main qualifers were given new motors for the main.

Each motor were individually inspected and put on a motor dyno to ensure all the motors were equal before they were released to motor installation tech.
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Old 08-26-2008, 10:41 PM
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Thanks to Tamiya and Fred for continuing the fun of TCS racing. Actually, my son and I had the most fun not on Saturday or Sunday, but in Friday's practice session, where 18-20 mini's were out on the track at once racing in packs of 6-7 cars, swapping positions and laughing while we "raced." Mini B main was also a blast for me, spending all 5 minutes trying to stay with the eventual winner, mere tenths of a second apart - congrats to the winner (Mickey Cohen) for not flinching under the assault. That's the kind of racing TCS should be about, where winner and second both get done with a race all smiles, with congrats to each other for the efforts. Mini remained the most popular class, with 45 entries for Nationals, Mickey & I were both in the A last year but this year had to settle for a B main race - A main guys really stepped it up a notch.

I do wish that the track was open for more than just Thursday and Friday, however - more time to spend having fun. If the land remains unsold by next years Nationals, and Tamiya needs volunteers to oversee the action, track prep, etc on Tuesday and Wednesday of race week, I'm sure many people would step up to assist - I know I would. Such a wonderful facility, seems a shame to not use it more.

To those who cheated (or attempted to) with the motors - shame on you. This is a race for "regular racers" (non-sponsored guys, the lifeblood of the hobby). Racing toy cars, and you feel the need to disregard the clearly stated and announced rules to gain an advantage - where in the heck are your priorities? Whether it was hidden magnets, trying to bring up comm cleaning liquids or comm drops to apply under the table, etc - why ruin a good thing? I understand that someone tried another magnet variation at the Aliso regionals this year - but was not DQ'd for the event. He should have received the same DQ for that event that the magnet man did at Nationals, no question about it. (But that same racer deserves praise for his racing at Nationals this week as well, and what seemed to be a newfound attitude.)

Hats off to the guys in tech once they realized that motor rules were being ignored by a select few - they clamped down by the mains, and the very good decision to give all the A main racers a fresh, free, and undoctored silvercan they had to run for the main, installed under (by then) the utmost observation by tech officials. Made the results and winners unquestionably legitimate.

Special kudos to the GT1 main racers, some of which gave one of the best demonstrations of the good use of brakes in running a tight line. Being a mini driver (brakes - yes we have them, but sometimes about as powerful as sticking out your foot to slow you down), the braking techniques that some of the GT1 drivers demonstrated will stick in my son's mind for quite a while. Great tutorial, with one guy (Tim) repeatedly sticking the front end of his car mere inches from the back bumper of the guy ahead of him, yet managing to almost always avoid a bump from behind.

Brandon - excellent sportmanship in your mini mains - you got booted from behind more than once in the second and third mains, unfortunately no penalty was called, and you took it in stride and put on a real clinic of driving skill to bring yourself back up towards the front by the end of the race. Perhaps a few more penalties should have been called in the races, as I believe the only penalty box call was in a novice spec class race - a bit odd.

As for mini's motors for future TCS races - I'll be glad to race mini's whatever the motor rules call for, silvercans or brushless. Perhaps they should consider silver cans for regionals, but 17.5 brushless for the Nationals. By the time you come to Nationals, with travel, car rental, hotel, tires, etc, the expense of a brushless system versus the silver can is really not all that material. At Trackside, we have been running 17.5's in our mini class for most of the year and love it. A 17.5 with the max 20 tooth pinion gives you a top RPM similar to a good silvercan, but with better bottom end torque. Combine a 17.5 and lipo and you have a real low maintenance class. A 21.5 is not a good choice for mini, as with the inherent gearing limitation, the 21.5 comes off with a slower top speed then even a silvercan. Run a 17.5 in a mini for ten minutes, and you will come off with a brushless motor that is all of 80 degrees! To make it work, limit the motor to a Novak 17.5 only, and ask Novak to step up with assistance like Orion did with the $25 2400 lipo batteries.
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Old 08-26-2008, 11:02 PM
  #9039  
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Originally Posted by MD
I think brushless is great and solves a lot of problems. But, you will not attract new participnats if they have to invest in an expensive sytem. When they are getting involved they don't want spend a lot of money in a hobby that they just getting started in. For the budget racer it's a big expenes also. Especially, when you consider travel costs. National events may be different.
i blasted Team B&B for this.. (and met him at the track. ) so ill blast you too... if you're going to come to TCS Nationals... and you're willing to spend all that money for travel, hotel and 1 run tires or 2 run tires (whatever).... are you telling me you cant spend the $1xx dollars for a BL esc that will last you until you fry it? i bought my LRP TC when it first came out. im still using it.

by the way.. how many people do you KNOW that is barely starting out in the hobby actually WILLING to travel to California for a Nationals and is not willing to get the proper equipment (not only to be competitive) to set them off in the right foot for the future? remember.. a GTB or LRP TC can run both brushed AND BL. so spend the $199 now... and it'll pay for itself in the future/long run.

the old saying is.. "buy cheap, buy twice"
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Old 08-27-2008, 05:46 AM
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Say, was there any of the Joe Gibbs Racing team pitcrew in the pits by any chance????

madjack, the old saying goes that a person is not a cheater.... Until they get caught......

Makes you wonder what made it pass tech that shouldn't have....
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Old 08-27-2008, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Hebiki
i blasted Team B&B for this.. (and met him at the track. ) so ill blast you too... if you're going to come to TCS Nationals... and you're willing to spend all that money for travel, hotel and 1 run tires or 2 run tires (whatever).... are you telling me you cant spend the $1xx dollars for a BL esc that will last you until you fry it? i bought my LRP TC when it first came out. im still using it.

by the way.. how many people do you KNOW that is barely starting out in the hobby actually WILLING to travel to California for a Nationals and is not willing to get the proper equipment (not only to be competitive) to set them off in the right foot for the future? remember.. a GTB or LRP TC can run both brushed AND BL. so spend the $199 now... and it'll pay for itself in the future/long run.

the old saying is.. "buy cheap, buy twice"
+1

The only time I use brushed motors anymore is when I am running TCS. Everything else is all-brushless, all the time...
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Old 08-27-2008, 06:25 AM
  #9042  
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Originally Posted by Hebiki
i blasted Team B&B for this.. (and met him at the track. )
Sorry, you got me confused with someone else. We only debated the min. 1400g weight rule in GT1 back in July. http://www.rctech.net/forum/4685802-post8672.html

... and you were right. It was possible to get the car down to 1400g and have it balanced.
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Old 08-27-2008, 06:39 AM
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Hebiki - If you noticed in my comments the last sentence says, "Nationals may be different." My remarks were directed toward regional racing. If you require brushless systems at the regional level, you will lose drivers. I think getting people involved at the regional level is important to continue to grow the series. We have seen tracks all over the country close because of the price of the hobby, the cost of travel and the economy. At the Nationals, I think that's a different level of racing. I would guess in a very short time the discussion of the higher cost of brushless will no longer exist. Prices are likely to drop as with all electronics.
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Old 08-27-2008, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by MD
Hebiki - If you noticed in my comments the last sentence says, "Nationals may be different." My remarks were directed toward regional racing. If you require brushless systems at the regional level, you will lose drivers. I think getting people involved at the regional level is important to continue to grow the series. We have seen tracks all over the country close because of the price of the hobby, the cost of travel and the economy. At the Nationals, I think that's a different level of racing. I would guess in a very short time the discussion of the higher cost of brushless will no longer exist. Prices are likely to drop as with all electronics.
In some ways you're making the point of why Brushless is a good idea. Face it, if you're racing in the TCS you're more than likely buying equipment that will only be used for TCS racing. Has anyone ever bought a Silver Can motor for week-in/week-out racing because they wanted to? Probably not. The reason you buy a silver can is to run a Tamiya-specific class such as Mini or GT3. I fully acknowledge that Spec class should remain a silver-can class. A lot of the cars someone would run in spec are even including a basic ESC, so why rock that boat. If someone is stepping up to GT2, GT3, or Mini, they've already bought a Kit and need to buy the electronics for it anyways. If you spend a little more initially it saves you money in the long run. Just looking at 17.5 combos, here's the pricing:

Novak GTB/17.5- $275
Tekin RS/17.5- $259
Losi Xcelorin/17.5- $229
LRP AI Brushless Reverse- $95 LRP Eraser 17.5 Motor- $76= $171!

And you'll never need to maintain your motor again! You'll never have to wonder if someone has tweaked the comm or done some other crap to their motors that might make it "questionable". And I am saying this as someone who typically has good power when it comes to Silver Cans. My time is worth something. I don't want to spend hours massaging a silver can anymore. I don't want to think about motor. I want to bolt it in and go. I want the piece of mind that I am getting beat because I suck as a driver and not because someone else tweaked on their motor. I can live with my suckage, I'm beyond used to it )
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Old 08-27-2008, 08:15 AM
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RCGaryk- I think the price list you included supports my contention that the additional expense will turn people away from participating in a regional race if it is required. You can buy a M03M Swift from Ultimate Hobbies for $105 plus shipping or RTR TT01 for $140. With these cars you can participate. I know that some people don't want these kind drivers participating in the TCS. I believe there should be room for everyone. I think there should a sportsman class or a redefined spec class. The more people that are involved the more the series will grow. When look at Ebay there are some brushless systems that are even cheaper and according to RCMini.net some are good. There is no doubt that if you're going to race a lot brushless is an excellent idea. I think that if you get people involved some will jump into the higher levels of competition, but you have to get them there first. This just my view from a sportsman level driver who attends some regional rces. I think that at the national level you're stepping up into a higher level of competition and the requirements could be or should be different. Your points are stated well and I understand your point of view.
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