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Old 08-25-2008, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Granpa

To Gary, the motors were tested after the event and not during. To do it during the event would have meant that we somehow managed to sneak eight motors out of tech and tested them in full view of 30 or 40 people. I think you may be hanging out with too many dishonest people. Most of the racers I"ve run across are pretty darned honest and wouldn't cheat even if they knew how. Even some of the so called "cheaters" have been unjustly excoriated for doing things that were not covered in the "rules". I suggest to you, that some of the problem may be in how the rules are written and not in the racers inherent desire to cheat. This thing of you can't do that cause "everyone knows that" just doesn't cut it.

Switching to brushless, doesn't eliminate motor cheating. It will just make it more difficult in tech. Also, it will require more complicated and expensive equipment to test and will require more skilled people in tech. Some of our tech people this year were having trouble operating a digital scale. No criticisms intended or implied here, just pointing out something you may have overlooked.
I couldn't disagree with this more. Unfortunately cheating has been a hallmark of TCS for years. From guys using Yokomo foam tires in F103 and soaking the tires in paint thinner/turpentine to soften them to guys taking their handout motors to "re-etching" their handout motor number onto a different motor and more, there has been "Creative interpretation of the rules" for far too long. Rule 17 also is the catch-all... If the rules don't say you can do it, it's illegal! I will agree though it's the minority that causes these problems, but the problems they cause are significant enough it affects everyone.

How can you cheat with a brushless? When I went to the ROAR Carpet Nats this year it took...4-to 5-minutes to check in a motor. When it was checked it was "sealed" by the tech crew. If that seal was damaged or tampered with, the motor was disallowed.
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Old 08-25-2008, 11:37 AM
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Thank you Tamiya for another great weekend of racing. It was a lot of fun just hanging out in the pits with all the guys.

Congrats to Steven B. (you were my pick to win GT-1 but didn't want to post your name and jinx you) your car was dialed, your driving was superb, and your perfect weekend of TQing all rounds and win first 2 A-Main was simply amazing! Good Luck in Japan, make us proud!

Special Thanks to: (this is going to be long)

Fred Medel: Thank you for running a great show all weekend, your efforts in keeping TCS as fair as possible, and making this still the best combination of fun and serious racing event around the country.

All the tech guys (and gal): Thank you all for your hard work and still having a smile on your face at the end of long weekend of teching.

Kevin Cole and Jeff Young: I don't think I will have a running car if it weren't for some of the odd-ball parts that I broke that you guys were able to supply me. Thank you

Dave Jun: Thanks for all your pointers and also teching my car.

Chris Lim, Troy Crabtree, Jeff Kuney, Kody, Kevin M. and Dotman: Great to be pitting with you guys and hanging out after the race as well.

Ling-Kang Tong: Thanks for letting me destroy your 4WD buggy on the off-road track. I'll be back next year with my own 4WD

Thanks again to the Tamiya crew. Looking forward to 09 season already

Steve Wang
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Old 08-25-2008, 11:55 AM
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A huge THANK YOU to Tamiya for putting on such a fun race! Congratulations to all the winners.

It was my first big race and first time at the Tamiya track as well. From a (big race) beginner's point of view, I think they used a really fair system for motors and batteries (as fair a system I have ever heard of). When I saw someone passing someone else in the turns, I immediately thought, "ooh, faster motor," but then when they went down the straight, nobody really pulled on each other, so it really came down to driving and how much speed you could carry. It sure is different from club silver can racing, where some people know the secrets, and some don't!

It really sucks to hear that people cheated. I heard rumors there was more than the one. I know that this was a big, big race with a lot on the line, but jeez. This really crushes the average racer's thinking that maybe they have a chance of winning, albeit a slim one given all the talent.

As a mini driver, the comment that RCGaryK makes about the mini class supposedly being the most low-tech but fun class, yet has the most cheating is really discouraging. Maybe a lot people flock to this class because they think it's the one they have the most chance at, cheating or not. If mini continues to grow (again) maybe we can have a Mini GT-1 and Mini GT-2 with separate motor rules? GT-1 can have all the prestige and big prizes and use brushless or black can motors and GT-2 can remain a fun "beginner" silver can class with no reason to cheat. Just a thought.

Thanks again to the Tamiya crew for all their hardwork, friendly attitudes, and a memorable event!
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Old 08-25-2008, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by RCGaryK
I couldn't disagree with this more. Unfortunately cheating has been a hallmark of TCS for years. From guys using Yokomo foam tires in F103 and soaking the tires in paint thinner/turpentine to soften them to guys taking their handout motors to "re-etching" their handout motor number onto a different motor and more, there has been "Creative interpretation of the rules" for far too long. Rule 17 also is the catch-all... If the rules don't say you can do it, it's illegal! I will agree though it's the minority that causes these problems, but the problems they cause are significant enough it affects everyone.

How can you cheat with a brushless? When I went to the ROAR Carpet Nats this year it took...4-to 5-minutes to check in a motor. When it was checked it was "sealed" by the tech crew. If that seal was damaged or tampered with, the motor was disallowed.

I'm sorry if I gave you the wrong impression, I was merely suggesting not criticising. It was well intentioned and not meant to be demeaning. I've attended a grand total of three TCS events and enjoyed them all and am appreciative of all the efforts you guys put forth. However, with that being said, I was suggesting that you might take a look at your rules and see if there might be a way to cut down on the "creative interpretation". Another suggestion would be to clearly set out what the penalties are for violations. I'm not a rules book lawyer so if that's in there, sorry.

Your comment on brushless motors merely proves my point. I am not against using brushless motors in Minis. Whatever you decide on is fine and I'm not arguing that at all. What I was suggesting was that tech would be more difficult and would be time consuming and would require more sophisticated equipment. If you can't cheat with brushless why bother to seal the motor?? If you can't cheat what were they looking for that took 4-5 minutes per motor?? I was merely suggesting that you may be closing one can of worms only to go over to whack a hornets nest.
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Old 08-25-2008, 12:50 PM
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1. Huge fun; Thanks to Tamiya for paying to staff up tech to make the heats fair. I liked the motor/battery process.

2. Also thanks to whichever (don't know if it was Orion or Tamiya) for the $25 LiPo price. We all knew Lipo would even the field, but they are expensive up front. That low price made the battery "even-ness" in racing the most under appreciated part of the weekend. Now, if we can convince a brushless company to sell us a setup for $25!

3. I had several of us turn in our motors after to Granpa keeping the #'s confidential; just interested in the variance of the motors. I thought they were all close; my man Lee definately got 1 dud (he even had to pull over for me!), but I didn't think I saw much variance. Let us know more Granpa.

4. Dispite all the intensity TCS remains a place where people help each other; it was my 1st time running F103 and lot's of people gave me great tips and help through out that really helped make it enjoyable to run.
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Old 08-25-2008, 12:55 PM
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speaking of lipos.

ill be taking a break from serious racing for the winter...so i have two 2400 lipos that was used in my GT2 car for sale. PM me if your interested.

[/end shameless for sale plug]
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Old 08-25-2008, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by RaceBucks
2. Also thanks to whichever (don't know if it was Orion or Tamiya) for the $25 LiPo price. We all knew Lipo would even the field, but they are expensive up front. That low price made the battery "even-ness" in racing the most under appreciated part of the weekend. Now, if we can convince a brushless company to sell us a setup for $25!
+1 to that!

Speaking of speaking of lipos, assuming weights and silver can motors are the same, would the 3200 orion pack have any speed advantage over the 2400?
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Old 08-25-2008, 01:03 PM
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Actually the regular store price for the 2400 Orion is like $30...so now there is no excuse to not dump NIMH.
Originally Posted by RaceBucks

2. Also thanks to whichever (don't know if it was Orion or Tamiya) for the $25 LiPo price. We all knew Lipo would even the field, but they are expensive up front. That low price made the battery "even-ness" in racing the most under appreciated part of the weekend. Now, if we can convince a brushless company to sell us a setup for $25!


.
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Old 08-25-2008, 01:56 PM
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Excellent times once again..

And to all the winners,.. very well deserved accomplishments..

I cant wait for next season..

Big thanks for TAMIYA for such a WONDERFUL event!!!

-O
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Old 08-25-2008, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by stitchy
..... If mini continues to grow (again) maybe we can have a Mini GT-1 and Mini GT-2 with separate motor rules? GT-1 can have all the prestige and big prizes and use brushless or black can motors and GT-2 can remain a fun "beginner" silver can class with no reason to cheat. Just a thought.

...!
Mini GT1 sounds like tons of fun.. like someone else mentioned, 17.5 please!!
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Old 08-25-2008, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by OSherman
Mini GT1 sounds like tons of fun.. like someone else mentioned, 17.5 please!!
Why don't Tamiya come out with there own brushless everyone else has them the there would be no complaints about different speedo's and motors?
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Old 08-25-2008, 02:22 PM
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I think also if they go to say a 17.5...it needs to be one manufactuer and no adjustable timing on the ESC or motor...like the GTB setup. We've tested 17.5 in mini here and with M03 gearing (20t pinion) speed was spot on with a decent silver can.
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Old 08-25-2008, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Core Creations
Actually the regular store price for the 2400 Orion is like $30...so now there is no excuse to not dump NIMH.
Tower sells them for $50, thought I saw the same at the OC/RC Gyro store. So I was very impressed with whoever pushed the price down to $25.
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Old 08-25-2008, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by SirSwiftAlot
Well well well well a good year of nationals I am hurt that no one picked me to win mini (Brandon Koslosky) but thats ok I am over it . Congrats to the winners dylan ran good in mini but I had a tough time in round two and round three we had a restart and as you will soon find out I got second and kody placed third. The mini and GT2 teching was good and we went through some learning curves with how to do it. Tamiya guys did a great job even though the first two rounds of tech were not as stringent as they should have been thats ok they nipped it in the butt and everything went well. As to the allegations of someone getting caught in mini cheating ITS TRUE. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but I think when someone gets caught cheating they need to be taught and for Ray K. it was his day. He got caught with a magnet in his pocket and was DQ'd from the event to bad so sad I have no sympathy for him . There were alot of guys like me who worked there ass off to get into the A main without cheating and thats it and like I told him in the pits when he accused me of cheating and I will say it again "you can take that and stick it up your ASS" . Anyways enough about that we had a great time weather was beautiful, Kody's MO4 worked really good craig richter made a really good showing timmy valles had a really good battle in gt1 and was the best racing all weekend thanks to fred and the crew for putiing on a great nationals and I hope to see you all next year. Would someone tell Laurel at Tamiya that I know she lusts for me but becuase she is in a relationship that I would not consider dating her untill she broke up with her boyfriend and tell her to quit calling me.
quoted for emphasis.
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Old 08-25-2008, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by jag5508
Why don't Tamiya come out with there own brushless everyone else has them the there would be no complaints about different speedo's and motors?
agree.
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