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Old 07-15-2008, 09:24 PM
  #8506  
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Sorry I ever mentioned any proposals on this site regarding any possible rules changes due to circumstances out of our control. I'm talking about the MINI tires. Clearly it was an unwise choice to voice any kind of "what if". For up to the minute rules and happenings at this years TCS finals please visit our website. The downloadable PDF. is always the last word on TCS rules and not any of our ramblings on this forum.

Last edited by FMW; 07-18-2008 at 02:03 PM. Reason: Controversy
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Old 07-15-2008, 10:14 PM
  #8507  
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Originally Posted by FMW
Many of you have voiced concerns about the Mini 60D A compound tires. I have seen first hand what is happening at the tracks around the series. With that said a simple solution is being considered and may be the way to go as WE ARE COMPLETELY SOLD OUT of 60D tires anyway We have ordered more, but the fact remains there is the possibility they may not make it in time. The proposed solution was to use the S-Grip treaded tires which offer good wear life and good performance. The S-Grips are not belted, I believe, so we will institute a rule where the tire can not be "ballooned" for gear ratio advantage. A simple guage will be used. Anyway be prepared for a spec tire for Mini..................

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Old 07-15-2008, 10:22 PM
  #8508  
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GT1 spec motor? Yes, no?
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Old 07-15-2008, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by FMW
F103GT will have the same RPM limits as all the other handout classes
You don't have to run a first class to run Buggy or F103GT. You may enter those as your one and only class if you'd like.
GT-1 guys should note we had to change the GT-1 spec battery to the Orion 3400. Not every racer has upraded their 415 to a 416 and it takes more modding to make the 3800 fit a 415. It has concerned some so the 3400 has a dip which makes it easy for all concerned. Peace
Fred, how about those ideas that was discussed about GT2 motors?

Originally Posted by madjack
hell yah!

Originally Posted by Potato
GT1 spec motor? Yes, no?
any ROAR approved brushless 10.5 motor. (LRP, Novak, etc) or are you asking SPEC as in "one brand for everyone"?

man this year's nationals is gonna be a blast!!!
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Old 07-15-2008, 11:41 PM
  #8510  
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GT-1 Spec motor?????? I don't know about that. I can't imagine too many of you being happy about that.
Don't you think most of those racing in GT-1 already have a motor and would gripe if they had to buy another brushless motor? I'm curious.... Mabuchi is one thing. I can make those cheap. Brushless is another...........I'm curious how you guys would debate this.

With GT-2 the rules right now state Black Cans. Everyone is aware that historically black cans start quick then slow down during the run. And that's doing nothing to them. Silver cans are more bullet proof. This past weekend we tested one to confirm my fears and the motor lost 600 RPM. Anyway, I'm just throwing that fact out there
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Old 07-16-2008, 12:59 AM
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Keep GT-2 as silver cans with tight RPM limits.

Let's make this all about driving skills.
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Old 07-16-2008, 02:23 AM
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Originally Posted by FMW
GT-1 Spec motor?????? I don't know about that. I can't imagine too many of you being happy about that.
Don't you think most of those racing in GT-1 already have a motor and would gripe if they had to buy another brushless motor? I'm curious.... Mabuchi is one thing. I can make those cheap. Brushless is another...........I'm curious how you guys would debate this.

With GT-2 the rules right now state Black Cans. Everyone is aware that historically black cans start quick then slow down during the run. And that's doing nothing to them. Silver cans are more bullet proof. This past weekend we tested one to confirm my fears and the motor lost 600 RPM. Anyway, I'm just throwing that fact out there
Originally Posted by DirtyRacer
Keep GT-2 as silver cans with tight RPM limits.

Let's make this all about driving skills.
Fred, leave GT1 as it is.

GT2.... my vote is for silver can with a 12,500rpm limit at 5v. black cans just get toasted too easily. also implement the idea of racers coming up to Tech, install the motor before their race... after the race, they remove it. no taking the motors back to their pits.
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Old 07-16-2008, 07:49 AM
  #8513  
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Originally Posted by FMW
F103GT will have the same RPM limits as all the other handout classes
You don't have to run a first class to run Buggy or F103GT. You may enter those as your one and only class if you'd like.
GT-1 guys should note we had to change the GT-1 spec battery to the Orion 3400. Not every racer has upraded their 415 to a 416 and it takes more modding to make the 3800 fit a 415. It has concerned some so the 3400 has a dip which makes it easy for all concerned. Peace
Ah come on. These last minute rule changes are becoming a real concern. With the long term commitment preparing travel and equipment for this race, we should not have to check RCTECH.NET every other day to see if our "controlled cars" will be in compliance. That is why we chose the GT-1 class to avoid the bickering of the minute performance related details found in the other TCS classes. GT-1 class is more about skill and car setup than the difference between a 3400 and 3800 battery.

Nitro and off road racers do not have to deal with this every year, every race.

It took less than 5 minutes with a Dremel for us the make our 3800 fit our 415. It is a lot easier to mod the cars than to "mod our wallets" to buy an additional battery that will have no need for after this race.

Rule 3: Chassis lightening is allowed for GT-1.

Therefore, altering the 415 to make almost any performance LiPo is mandatory. I would of expected that every 415 owner to have done this already if they race any brand of LiPo.

Or since Orion is the sponsor, have them run a special batch of 3800 in the 3400 cases for racers who don't want to alter their 415 cars. Pass the burden on Orion for the few, not the majority.

Plus, making the controlled battery the highest capacity available given a certain size container, eliminates anybody mucking with trying to stuff more capacity under the same label.

We will be shipping our cars to CA out a week before the event. It would be sad to find out that the rules were changed again and we accept delivery of a useless container.

A quick history lesson: Most forms of racing were killed by rapid changes in rules where the cost/benefit of the participation can no longer be justified.
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Old 07-16-2008, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by TeamB&B
Ah come on. These last minute rule changes are becoming a real concern. With the long term commitment preparing travel and equipment for this race, we should not have to check RCTECH.NET every other day to see if our "controlled cars" will be in compliance. That is why we chose the GT-1 class to avoid the bickering of the minute performance related details found in the other TCS classes. GT-1 class is more about skill and car setup than the difference between a 3400 and 3800 battery.

Nitro and off road racers do not have to deal with this every year, every race.

It took less than 5 minutes with a Dremel for us the make our 3800 fit our 415. It is a lot easier to mod the cars than to "mod our wallets" to buy an additional battery that will have no need for after this race.

Rule 3: Chassis lightening is allowed for GT-1.


Therefore, altering the 415 to make almost any performance LiPo is mandatory. I would of expected that every 415 owner to have done this already if they race any brand of LiPo.

Or since Orion is the sponsor, have them run a special batch of 3800 in the 3400 cases for racers who don't want to alter their 415 cars. Pass the burden on Orion for the few, not the majority.

Plus, making the controlled battery the highest capacity available given a certain size container, eliminates anybody mucking with trying to stuff more capacity under the same label.

We will be shipping our cars to CA out a week before the event. It would be sad to find out that the rules were changed again and we accept delivery of a useless container.

A quick history lesson: Most forms of racing were killed by rapid changes in rules where the cost/benefit of the participation can no longer be justified.
While I dont disagree with your thinking, I can remember spending $2-300 a year on new batteries just for the Nats
while $100 is alot of money, at least it is not the above mentioned.
There is still a month before the race, that gives everyone plenty of prep time
just my $.02
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Old 07-16-2008, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Hebiki
Fred, leave GT1 as it is.

GT2.... my vote is for silver can with a 12,500rpm limit at 5v. black cans just get toasted too easily. also implement the idea of racers coming up to Tech, install the motor before their race... after the race, they remove it. no taking the motors back to their pits.
I can only imagine the lines and confusion at the motor check in/ check out line if that proposal was implemented.

Has anyone considered the staffing implications and the delays that most likely would occur by a run on tech if the motors were to be "held" in the tech area all weekend? This would mean NO practice with your hand out to determine the sweet spot gearing. OK, mini never changes gearing, but the other classes do have gearing options.

The Aliso regionals had a motor rpm limit. The extra fast guys were teched after their run. Some were found compliant, other were slightly over the limit, some were blatant cheaters with extra magnets in the can. In other words, the RPM limit works. If a magnet limit was added with a torque arm test, the magnet enhancements would be caught, period!

Here is a suggestion for spec motor classes to prevent VooDoo:
a)Test the motors when they get to TA,
b)Set a reasonable (low) RPM LIMIT,
c)Determine a magnet torque limit,
d)Be prepared to tech the fast guys after a run for RPM and Magnet strength(with a reasonable cool down period),
e)Check in motors on Saturday night.

With these suggestions or similar ideas in place, the racers and the STAFF can enjoy the race without draconian measures put in place. Racers can and should police their own motors before a run. Fast guys by overall and lap times are the only ones that should be subjected to tech, which most will gladly submit to after a good run. (I can only hope to be one of those guys.)

I know this is THE NATIONALS, but please remember why we participate in this hobby. This should be fun and enjoyable. A great time to meet new people and enjoy what we all like to do in our spare time, a hobby.

The guys that take it to seriously and feel the need to stepover the spirit of the rules would be held in check and/or disqualified with the above suggestions implimented. The regular non-podium guys can rest assured that the motor VooDoo and shenanigans will be held in check, relax and have agreat weekend.

That's all I got to say about that..............

Leaving on a jet plane in 5 weeks for a great vacation!
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Old 07-16-2008, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by BP SHADOW
While I dont disagree with your thinking, I can remember spending $2-300 a year on new batteries just for the Nats
while $100 is alot of money, at least it is not the above mentioned.
There is still a month before the race, that gives everyone plenty of prep time
just my $.02
I appreciated all that Tamiya has done and the time and concerns making the rules as fair as possible.

But at some point, we will start to see diminishing returns on this effort.

Last edited by TeamB&B; 07-17-2008 at 04:48 AM.
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Old 07-16-2008, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Hebiki
Fred, leave GT1 as it is.

GT2.... my vote is for silver can with a 12,500rpm limit at 5v. black cans just get toasted too easily. also implement the idea of racers coming up to Tech, install the motor before their race... after the race, they remove it. no taking the motors back to their pits.
I agree with Hebiki to leave GT1 alone. Running in the fast class, my objective is to be able to use the newest technology and not spending money to buy something that I would not use. I don't think that making slight modification to 415 to make the battery fit would hurt the car. I would want to use the new 3800's and not go back to using anything less than that. I also like to see that we use our own motor in GT1.
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Old 07-16-2008, 09:20 AM
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So the only change Fred did for GT-1 is a battery change. How is that drastic enough for your whole race package to become useless? Besides, on the website it says "Note: Downloadable pdf is always the most current version."

The only class that's been heavily altered is F103GT...and I know I'm one of the voices that affected it. F103GT doesn't affect other classes other than you're able to race in it as a 2nd class.

I don't agree with motor check in....that will drag out the racing schedule. I still agree with a low rpm limit.
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Old 07-16-2008, 10:14 AM
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Sorry Chris, but I have to agree with Marty and Dirty on the motor issue. TA already has enough staffing difficulties running this event without adding the confusion and complexity of motor impound.

For example, every time the motor comes out of the car and into impound, the actual can number will have to be checked against the registration number (to ensure that people don't stick a different motor in the box and hand it in)- that takes time. Any smart racer is going to do the same thing when it's given back to them to put into the car- more time. Same thing when the motors are turned in at night. I've NEVER seen anyone check the number on the motor in the box against the motor registered to the racer when they are turned in on Saturday night...now multiply that by four qualifiers and three Mains and see how much variability can be thrown into the mix.

How large and well-policed will the motor installation area be? Will the light be good enough for racers to be able to see what they're doing (I'm half blind- will I hold up the other racers in my heat)? Can my PB do the motor thing or does the racer have to do it? Will there be a place to stick my tools when I'm done, or do I just shove them in my pocket? That's an injury waiting to happen. I don't even want to think about the whole "where's my motor wrench/motor screw/pinion/pinion wrench" scenario. In short, we're talking mass hysteria, especially with multiple heats, some racers being early and others being late.

And...it's not necessary. Just choose an rpm limit. Make it low but reasonable (at a minimum, the statistical max of a new motor from the batch that is run seven times without any care whatsoever). Test the top three cars in each heat as well as anyone who turns a single fast lap that is as low as any fast lap in the top ten for the previous round in that class. Test those motors for rpm as well as magnetic force using a simple torque arm. Just doing that will take at least one (but preferably two) pretty full time guys who know what they're doing. Motor impound will require many more staffers than Tamiya can easily access.
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Old 07-16-2008, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by DirtyRacer
So the only change Fred did for GT-1 is a battery change. How is that drastic enough for your whole race package to become useless? Besides, on the website it says "Note: Downloadable pdf is always the most current version."

The only class that's been heavily altered is F103GT...and I know I'm one of the voices that affected it. F103GT doesn't affect other classes other than you're able to race in it as a 2nd class.

I don't agree with motor check in....that will drag out the racing schedule. I still agree with a low rpm limit.
My $.02 solution for the silver can racing:
- Give everyone a handout marked and sealed silver can motors registered to each class. The racer can do anything to the motor they want without opening the can. Burned up the motors, DNF, and get a new stock motor that nothing can be done to it. DNFer's install the motor before the heat, take it out and return it afterwards. The better builder will consider endurance and reliability rather than raw speed.
- At the end of the last heat of the day, the cars go straight to tech and the motors are confiscated and tested for amp draw and rpm on a Much More dyno. Blind motor performances are posted. No record is kept where the motors came from.
- The person in last place will have the first option to pick any motor from the list or choose to get a new handout motor for the next day events. This picking will go down the line in reverse order until the TQ person has his pick or chooses to get a new motor.

Last edited by TeamB&B; 07-17-2008 at 04:45 AM.
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