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Old 09-17-2007, 02:54 PM
  #6631  
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Originally Posted by MD
Kevin CBR - You're correct about Spec Class/Novice. If it's a local racer that should not be there, the local race director has to take some action. Tamiya has step in also. There are guys who have run Spec for at least two series, you can see the pictures and race results. I think grassroots racers are the key to growing the series. The kids, the young adults and old guys like myself who have always bought Tamiya cars and would like to race. I usually race in GT3 because I think that's where I belong as a sportsman I am usually in the "C" or "B" Main depending on the number of entries. I have also raced Mini and F103gt. I have a TA05 with several hop ups and we have an very competitve GT3 class at my local parking lot series. The problem I see is that GT3 has become something other than a sportsman class. Drivers spend hours, lots of money, and have secret break in methods. In talking to sportsman drivers who run Tamiya cars that would like to run GT3, but it's well known in the general R/C community that GT3 in the TCS is not a good class to run. Their perception is that there is a lot of cheating in that class. If you talk to veteran drivers who race at a high level, their perception is the same. Their information comes from talking to TCS drivers that they know. Is there a solution to change this perception and promote more GT3 racers to particpate? I don't think just saying that's the way it is in a competitve situation is satisfactory.
MD, i dont know who you are, or where you race.. but im having a hard time understanding what it is your trying to get at with the TCS series. so here's how i see it...and then please explain what your trying to say. no flaming. just trying to understand. k?

if someone starts out at spec.. then wins.. you say bump them up to GT3. once they win in GT3.. bump them up to GT2? what if that driver is just good enough NOT to be hazard in GT2.. but too fast in GT3. where does that driver fall? what if they're only comfortable and having fun at those speeds? sure they can hang in GT1..and maybe even make the show in it... but what if they're not having fun?

you keep insisting on keeping GT3 for sportsman drivers..and now you're mentioning thats the class that has cheaters in it? whats your point exactly? people in GT2 or GT1 cant cheat? what are you gonna do about drivers that can only handle GT3 speeds, but they're willing to learn set up AND how to "tune" a sealed end bell motor?

btw... after 2003... i thought people "cheated" too when it came to seal endbell motors. BUT i did my research. and now im on the other side of the fence.
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Old 09-17-2007, 03:39 PM
  #6632  
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Chris's point is spot on for the "cheaters".

For those who do not run TCS or Silvercan, Blackcan on a weekly basis when a guy goes blowing by then they are labelled cheaters. I don;t care if it is Baker or whomever they wil say it as they cannot believe how fast the cars are. Locally we have alot of A-Main National drivers who say the same "what is that person running...., no way not a Silvercan they are not that fast......"

Like I said before and apparently pissed a few people off with.

Spend the time to figure out how to make a Silvercan fast and your chassis faster.........

GT3 and TCS is a Sportsman series whether you are in the hobby for 5 weeks or 15yrs like Mr Cole above. You do not receive travel but you might receive mfg discounts. All of that equals SPORTSMAN.......
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Old 09-17-2007, 04:12 PM
  #6633  
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Originally Posted by Difuser
Chris's point is spot on for the "cheaters".

For those who do not run TCS or Silvercan, Blackcan on a weekly basis when a guy goes blowing by then they are labelled cheaters. I don;t care if it is Baker or whomever they wil say it as they cannot believe how fast the cars are. Locally we have alot of A-Main National drivers who say the same "what is that person running...., no way not a Silvercan they are not that fast......"

Like I said before and apparently pissed a few people off with.

Spend the time to figure out how to make a Silvercan fast and your chassis faster.........

GT3 and TCS is a Sportsman series whether you are in the hobby for 5 weeks or 15yrs like Mr Cole above. You do not receive travel but you might receive mfg discounts. All of that equals SPORTSMAN.......
ask me how many silver cans i've blown up until i figured out how to make them fast.. AND im STILL learning new tricks.
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Old 09-17-2007, 04:33 PM
  #6634  
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Old 09-17-2007, 04:39 PM
  #6635  
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Originally Posted by Hebiki
ask me how many silver cans i've blown up until i figured out how to make them fast.. AND im STILL learning new tricks.
I think you answered the issue at hand. If you want to tune on motors, there are 2 classes you can run in and tune to you hearts content. I would see where a newbie would get discouraged real fast if they bought all the " right stuff " and got blown into the weeds. I have decent silvercans, but I am far from a guru. Being able to tune a silvercan should not be a prerequisite to run GT3, and if budgets allowed, spec should be handout silvercans with turn in every round so no tweaking can occur.
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Old 09-17-2007, 05:40 PM
  #6636  
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Originally Posted by BP SHADOW
I think you answered the issue at hand. If you want to tune on motors, there are 2 classes you can run in and tune to you hearts content. I would see where a newbie would get discouraged real fast if they bought all the " right stuff " and got blown into the weeds. I have decent silvercans, but I am far from a guru. Being able to tune a silvercan should not be a prerequisite to run GT3, and if budgets allowed, spec should be handout silvercans with turn in every round so no tweaking can occur.
point taken i do run GT2 along side GT3. but also don't miss my point that this is about as much as speed as i can handle. so does that mean i cant run GT3 now? so ill be stuck in GT1 with speeds i cant handle and not having as much fun?

eventually ill get good enough in GT1 (i'll force myself to get comfortable with the speeds)... then some other sportsman driver will say i shouldn't run GT2. where does it end?

if thats the case, if you guys want that just so some "sportsman" drivers can bump up a few spots and i cant race with my friends....you can have your TCS then.
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Old 09-17-2007, 05:46 PM
  #6637  
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Originally Posted by BP SHADOW
I would see where a newbie would get discouraged real fast if they bought all the " right stuff " and got blown into the weeds.
btw.. i WAS A NEWBIE in 2003. i got smoked in Mini. i yelled "cheater"... my teammates back then just laughed at me. and they said what the fast guys are doing is possible and they're not cheating.

there was a fork in my rc hobby..... FOLD & move on -OR- learn and get better.
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Old 09-17-2007, 06:00 PM
  #6638  
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Originally Posted by Difuser
GT3 and TCS is a Sportsman series whether you are in the hobby for 5 weeks or 15yrs like Mr Cole above. You do not receive travel but you might receive mfg discounts. All of that equals SPORTSMAN.......
Difuser - one clarification, it only seems like I have been in it for 15 years with the bazillion kits and body sets I have collected and that yes, I am old. I actually started racing only in February 2003. Now maybe you refering that my driving looks like I have only been it for 5 weeks ?

As for "cheater motors" - Hebiki and Difuser are dead on. It's easier to say someone is cheating becuase they blew by you rather than admiting they are better at tuning or breaking in the motor or God forbid, yes, they are actually a better driver. Ask any of the serious GT-3 drivers who have been around for awhile and THEY will tell you it is about the better tuner and / or driver combo, not just buying a better motor from someone.

Originally Posted by Hebiki
ask me how many silver cans i've blown up until i figured out how to make them fast.. AND im STILL learning new tricks.
I can't count that high but I think it is three more than I have and two less than Doc.

Originally Posted by BP SHADOW
I think you answered the issue at hand. If you want to tune on motors, there are 2 classes you can run in and tune to you hearts content. I would see where a newbie would get discouraged real fast if they bought all the " right stuff " and got blown into the weeds. I have decent silvercans, but I am far from a guru. Being able to tune a silvercan should not be a prerequisite to run GT3, and if budgets allowed, spec should be handout silvercans with turn in every round so no tweaking can occur.
Which is exactly why a brushless class (possibly GT-4) will be great in '08. At the Tamiya "Fun Race" Fred put on earlier this year, there were a lot of combo's tried. Brushless with LIPO, Brushed and LIPO, Brushless and NIMH and Brushed with NIMH. From the front runners, the following was what we noticed. A very well tuned brushed was quicker on the straight than Brushless. New, fresh high number 4200's had more punch than LIPO's. So, a newbie with no tuning experience or a person who likes to drive and not wrench can be very close to the top in performance with brushless and LIPO but those who want to take the time and expense to tweak motors and buy fresh batteries will have a slight advantage. It will really come down to chassis set-up and driving talent.

Last edited by Kevin CBR; 09-17-2007 at 06:11 PM.
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Old 09-17-2007, 07:08 PM
  #6639  
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The silvercan motor debate can go on for weeks. I have seen both sides of the fence on this one. But before the debate rages, you must first define "cheating" when it comes to silver cans:

Salt water dipping?
Chemical dipping?
Cranking?
Comm drops?
Comm polishing tools?
Magnet zappers?

I've seen or heard about every method being used, and I'm sure there are more. When it comes to silvercans, many local clubs define "cheating" as "any modifications to enhance performance and thus take away from the spirit of competition". How's that for subjective! For the purist, I would say water dipping in whatever fashion you choose to seat the brushes is acceptable, but all others are subject to scrutiny. But that's just one racer's opinion.

Locally the faster motors contributed to the death of our mini class. We used to get 20+ racers out there. A few of us had well worn 4-slot motors, and those were the hot ticket. But along came some super silvercans that would mop up our best 4-slots. I tried to bring the class back with the offer of a grab box for motors, but the few fast guys didn't want to bother having to swap motors out during the races, or they were worried that they wouldn't get valuable practice running a motor that much slower than their motors. So mini died, along with our spec class.

But was it cheating, or just creative motor tuning?

Having said that, I have also put one of my own "decent" but totally unmolested silvercan motors in the hands of a great driver and watched him spank the field with it. Could I have done the same? Not a chance! I've finished 2nd to this particular racer in just about every GT2 race I run, and it's not even close. So yes it's ALSO about set-up and driving skills.

My issues are when a car handles so much better on a straight-away that the person can pull you 20 ft. or more. Yeah, a free drivetrain helps, but an extra 5000 rpms doesn't hurt either!

Let the flames begin!
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Old 09-17-2007, 07:36 PM
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Mr Cole I knew your length of time perhaps I should have used Doc as he was around when there was a square box with a donut attached to the face. Or was that before dirt?

Point being time spent knowing your equipment and optimising setup. All the same as the SCCA you came from......
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Old 09-17-2007, 07:43 PM
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Hebiki - Sorry for the confusion. I do tend to ramble. It's my opinion that GT3 should be a sportsman level class where you don't have to know any special techniques for breaking in a silver can motor. They should be handouts and the drivers pay for the motors. I assume the drivers who develop their techniques for breaking the motors would disgree. I beleive driving skill, set up skill should determine performance. I will continue to run GT3. If Tamiya wants to keep it at the current practice that's the way it is. I am relative rookie at the TCS. I have competed for three years. It's also talked about a lot by Tamiya drivers outside the TCS that they would like to run GT3 because they are not novices, but they feel that the GT3 class is not what it was originally intedned.

I don't know if there's cheating in the silver can classes.I am sure there are many very fast drivers who would beat the majority of us know no matter what we did to our motors. I also know that dirvers in the TCS series and professionals in the r/c community have said there is motor cheating in the siver can classes. Are they right, I don't know for sure. I do know that these are people I know to be honest. Are they exaggerating, may be.

It doesn't really make any difference if there are cheaters or not. My goal would be to have a GT3 class or whatever you want to call it that would encourage sportsman Tamiya drivers to participate. I think there is a whole lot of Tamiya drivers who could be participating who don't.
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Old 09-17-2007, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Hebiki
point taken i do run GT2 along side GT3. but also don't miss my point that this is about as much as speed as i can handle. so does that mean i cant run GT3 now? so ill be stuck in GT1 with speeds i cant handle and not having as much fun?

eventually ill get good enough in GT1 (i'll force myself to get comfortable with the speeds)... then some other sportsman driver will say i shouldn't run GT2. where does it end?

if thats the case, if you guys want that just so some "sportsman" drivers can bump up a few spots and i cant race with my friends....you can have your TCS then.
I guess I need to ask why 2 GT classes?
The cool thing about TCS is the variety of classes, why would you want to run pretty much the same class at the same event?
I know the obvious answer is because you can do both with 1 car and just swap the motor.
Look, I am not saying that anyone is cheating, I know that there are alot of good drivers out there that spend a lot of time on their setups. I am not saying that there should be one universal rule that if you win a race you get bumped. I am saying that if you show up and lap the field twice, maybe the fruit is hanging too low. i know I have good equipment, I know that I can drive well, I also know that I don't put as much time in as others do and don't get to the track as much as I would like to, so maybe I am where I am.
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Old 09-18-2007, 08:08 AM
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Ah. Fall approaches, leaves begin to turn (well, at least where they have actual seasonal changes), and talk turns to...silver cans and GT3 and cheaters and "how can that guy be so fast when we have the (supposedly) same motor?"

Bottom line is this, folks: GT3 is all about efficiency. Efficicency in the drive train, a low amp draw motor, low IR cells, light weight electronics, a setup that carries speed through the corners, and a driving technique that is different from every other class out there (closest might be Mini, but that's open to discussion). So those who are used to the point 'n shoot corner-to-corner style of GT1 or GT2 will find themselves toward the back of the pack unless/until they learn to adapt (e.g. Arluck, Tam, Hickman, etc.). So will novice/newbie/spec drivers whose main concern is getting around the track without being marshalled (a worthy goal) and therefore tend to be in the middle of the track- not the fastest way around.

Whether silver/black can tuning should be permitted is up to the organizers, but as long as it is, good racers- dedicated racers- will take advantage of it if they can. I'm all for blind draw motors each round (check out the rules for October's Mini Mayhem Race) and would HAPPILY give up all the nights spent in the Secret Underground Laboratory working on motors if it meant that the next guy's chances of grabbing a slightly quicker motor were the same as mine. But that ain't the way it is. So I continue to put intellectual effort and research into finding ways to make those little demons faster without straying from the rules. And since I'm older than pretty much everybody out there- and definitely older than any other reasonably competitive TCS racer in the country except (maybe) Richter- I'll grab every teeny advantage that I can. Believe it: older is slower.

Meanwhile, I feel that GT3 is already the 'next step' class for former Spec/Novice drivers. They can move into a much more advanced chassis and learn a lot about setup and gearing without breaking many parts or wearing out a lot of tires (Nats aside, lots of GT3 guys run the same set of tires for...months). They will also learn what it's like to lose- and that's an important thing to face, because no matter what class (or what other hobby) you move up to from entry level, you will probably be in the back of the pack until (as others have pointed out) you figure things out. My opinon: the best thing this hobby teaches you is humility.

Meanwhile, just a few corrections to previous posts: 1) yes, there was dirt when I started racing, but it was fairly new dirt, so I'm almost as old as that; 2) I don't blow motors up, I burn them- just ask around.

Love the discussion, please keep it coming. Meanwhile, I'm out here in Glacier National Park. It's gorgeous (see pic below) but I'm really looking forward to the Mayhem race in a few weeks.
Attached Thumbnails Tamiya Championship Series-glacier-national-park-st-mary-resized.jpg   Tamiya Championship Series-black-bear-resized-.jpg  
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Old 09-18-2007, 08:31 AM
  #6644  
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Great pictures. What class does the bear run? I think I saw him at Trackside.
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Old 09-18-2007, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by MD
Great pictures. What class does the bear run? I think I saw him at Trackside.
Nahhh, you just saw me at the Novak race, more likely...LOL
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