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Old 09-13-2007, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Hawk6
I'd disagree Gary. I'd guess 70% or so of TCS participants don't go to the Nationals and never plan to (like me). For at least some of us, the regional TCS race is our "big race" for the year. Hopefully Fred and Co. will remember the low cost aspect of TCS racing for the 70% (or whatever the percentage really is).
I don't disagree with that, but in a way you've made my point. Some people prepare for a regional like some prepare for a nationals. For some the regional event IS their nationals. Before I moved down here for the TCS Regionals at Scotty's I'd practice from Wednesday-Saturday before the Sunday race. And I wasn't alone at the track. I would buy new batteries before the race. I would buy new tires for the event. I would run new tires every other round. Again, I was not alone in this. The point is people have a limited amount of disposable income. IF you remove the costs associated with Motors and Batteries people will have more money to A) race more frequently, B) invest in tires, C) invest in a second class.
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Old 09-13-2007, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by BP SHADOW
The only rant I have about GT3 is that the TQ at Trackside for GT3 would have been 4th on the grid for GT1 at the same event. I am not going to make accusations on this person, but if you can run fast enough to be in the GT1 A, then why are you running GT3. I ran GT3 because I thought I could compete to win, and I got my ass handed to me.
Brad, let me play devil's advocate here. The three years I ran GT3 at Trackside I TQed all three years with a TA-04. My times would have put me top 5 in GT-2 each year and top 10 in GT-1. Should I not have been allowed to run GT-3? And I know I am putting you on the spot because we're friends and all but at the same time who the rule is applied to shouldn't impact how the rule is inforced....

And for the record, I also made the A-2 out of the three years in GT-1, and the other year I ran GT-2 and GT-3 with the same car...
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Old 09-13-2007, 07:59 PM
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RCGaryK - My laast comment was not directed to you. I agree that the Tamiya is not an inexpensive series. I think there is room for both levels of racing investment.

There's no doubt that brushless is the future, but the cost of the speed controls is the killer for me. As far as Lipos, I don't know a lot, but I do know that they can catch on fire. When I worked at a hobby storre we would receive the aircraft lipos that were swollen, and they had to put in the sink in the back room in case they went up. My concern about them is drivers who aren't aware of the dangers.But, I guess it should be the decision of the local track owner.
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Old 09-13-2007, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by MD
RCGaryK - My laast comment was not directed to you. I agree that the Tamiya is not an inexpensive series. I think there is room for both levels of racing investment.

There's no doubt that brushless is the future, but the cost of the speed controls is the killer for me. As far as Lipos, I don't know a lot, but I do know that they can catch on fire. When I worked at a hobby storre we would receive the aircraft lipos that were swollen, and they had to put in the sink in the back room in case they went up. My concern about them is drivers who aren't aware of the dangers.But, I guess it should be the decision of the local track owner.
I didn't take it as such, so no worries

As far as the cost of speedos, they're coming down but you're right they're not exactly cheap. However there's an increase in the number of Brushless speedos at a lower and lower cost now too. And an increasing number of those can do both brushed and brushless motors. For the newcomer it's cheaper to go brushless, especially with brushless systems being included in RTR's!
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Old 09-13-2007, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by RCGaryK
I would buy new batteries before the race. I would buy new tires for the event. I would run new tires every other round. Again, I was not alone in this. The point is people have a limited amount of disposable income. IF you remove the costs associated with Motors and Batteries people will have more money to A) race more frequently, B) invest in tires, C) invest in a second class.
Gotta disagree with you on that Gary.
The batteries, 2 good sets, about $120. motors, 2 about $34.
That's not the big investment, it's the damn tires that jack the cost of TCS up higher than any other race, for a regional it's about $250, for the nats I know guys that were buying $500+ worth of tires.
My tire bill for the ROAR nats including the free set I got for making the A main was less than $150 and I still have 2 new sets left over.
No body around here uses Tamiya tires the rest of the year and when setting a car up for a regional, you end up using another 3 or 4 sets, $200+?

Use the Reedy format of 4 sets of premounts @$30 each for the regionals and nats, use stock 27t motors for GT2 at the nats, very little majic involved and hardly any duds, it was a real shame to see guys that were real fast all week long end up getting duds for Sat and Sun waste $500 worth of tires to end up in the B.
That would bring the cost down to something reasonable.
As far as BL motors, way to difficult to tech, until a quick inexpensive way comes about.

Fred Forg
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Old 09-13-2007, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by C_O_jones
Gotta disagree with you on that Gary.
The batteries, 2 good sets, about $120. motors, 2 about $34.
That's not the big investment, it's the damn tires that jack the cost of TCS up higher than any other race, for a regional it's about $250, for the nats I know guys that were buying $500+ worth of tires.
My tire bill for the ROAR nats including the free set I got for making the A main was less than $150 and I still have 2 new sets left over.
No body around here uses Tamiya tires the rest of the year and when setting a car up for a regional, you end up using another 3 or 4 sets, $200+?

Use the Reedy format of 4 sets of premounts @$30 each for the regionals and nats, use stock 27t motors for GT2 at the nats, very little majic involved and hardly any duds, it was a real shame to see guys that were real fast all week long end up getting duds for Sat and Sun waste $500 worth of tires to end up in the B.
That would bring the cost down to something reasonable.
As far as BL motors, way to difficult to tech, until a quick inexpensive way comes about.

Fred Forg
Maybe that's a point of differentiation then between carpet and asphalt? Sweet spot, even for B3's is the first 3 runs. On carpet you've bearly gotten the mold release off the tires after 3 runs
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Old 09-13-2007, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by MD
There's no doubt that brushless is the future, but the cost of the speed controls is the killer for me.
LRP SPHERE Competition TC-Spec Brushless ESC - $199 at speedtechrc.
Ko Propo VFS-1 C2 - $169.99 + heatsink $14.50 + fan $10 = $194.99 (LRP above comes with both) also at speedtechrc.

the LRP can run BOTH brushed and brushless motors. Ko can only run brushed. With the LRP your covered to run both.

People have to learn how to fish, so they can eat for a lifetime. Not ask for a fish, and only eat for one day.

Last edited by Hebiki; 09-14-2007 at 04:05 PM.
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Old 09-14-2007, 02:47 AM
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May I have a fish, please?

OK, then how about another 200 rpm?
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Old 09-14-2007, 07:21 AM
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You are not putting me on the spot.
I just think that someone that is capable of running up front in GT1 should run in GT1. Its like Michael Schumacher showing up for a Formula Ford race, theres nothing that says he can't, but where is the challenge?. I moved down to GT3 because I was having a hard time being fast consistently in GT1. GT3 is still fast, but it is easier to focus on line than in GT1. I can be more deliberate with where I put the car. I still like the speed of GT1 , but I had to be realistic. GT1 is about as close as you can get to a proclass.
Originally Posted by RCGaryK
Brad, let me play devil's advocate here. The three years I ran GT3 at Trackside I TQed all three years with a TA-04. My times would have put me top 5 in GT-2 each year and top 10 in GT-1. Should I not have been allowed to run GT-3? And I know I am putting you on the spot because we're friends and all but at the same time who the rule is applied to shouldn't impact how the rule is inforced....

And for the record, I also made the A-2 out of the three years in GT-1, and the other year I ran GT-2 and GT-3 with the same car...
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Old 09-14-2007, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by BP SHADOW
You are not putting me on the spot.
I just think that someone that is capable of running up front in GT1 should run in GT1. Its like Michael Schumacher showing up for a Formula Ford race, theres nothing that says he can't, but where is the challenge?. I moved down to GT3 because I was having a hard time being fast consistently in GT1. GT3 is still fast, but it is easier to focus on line than in GT1. I can be more deliberate with where I put the car. I still like the speed of GT1 , but I had to be realistic. GT1 is about as close as you can get to a proclass.
But you didn't really answer my question or I didn't phrase it adequately... Should someone be allowed to run GT3 if they are also going to run GT1? What is the cutoff for how fast someone has to be in GT3 before they are no-longer allowed to run it? For classes like Spec I see that as a reasonable step to make, but for "regular" classes I don't
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Old 09-14-2007, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Hawk6
I'd disagree Gary. I'd guess 70% or so of TCS participants don't go to the Nationals and never plan to (like me). For at least some of us, the regional TCS race is our "big race" for the year. Hopefully Fred and Co. will remember the low cost aspect of TCS racing for the 70% (or whatever the percentage really is).
From what I know Fred does want to keep the "low cost aspect" to TCS racing although in some areas, it could still be lower yet.

Originally Posted by C_O_jones
Use the Reedy format of 4 sets of premounts @$30 each for the regionals and nats, use stock 27t motors for GT2 at the nats, very little majic involved and hardly any duds, it was a real shame to see guys that were real fast all week long end up getting duds for Sat and Sun waste $500 worth of tires to end up in the B.
That would bring the cost down to something reasonable.
As far as BL motors, way to difficult to tech, until a quick inexpensive way comes about.
I would like to see cost control on tires. I know this has been pretty much an annual discussion for many. I remember one Nats when tires were scarce they allowed you to tech 3 or 4 sets of B2 tires. They had a special sticker they signed and you had to mount them in front of tech. The tire issue has been very crazy. I am not one to want to cut up tires after 1 run, usually they work fine for local racing or practice. I know this year I had to to cut a new set to get the inserts, they were slightly blistered tires. Pre-mounts would be an awesome choice too but since Tamiya makes tires and sells quite a bit, I don't see that happening with another brand. The only way is if Tamiya made an A premount and a B premount.

As far as the motors/batteries for GT2 at the Nats. I was somewhat satisfied. My one of two motors was awesome and batteries well they were decent but then again I had no other numbers of that brand to compare them to. Price sure I always like cheaper prices or the best price of all... free but was not as bad as some years. Just wish I did not lose a bearing early in the B-main. . .

Originally Posted by BP SHADOW
You are not putting me on the spot.
I just think that someone that is capable of running up front in GT1 should run in GT1. Its like Michael Schumacher showing up for a Formula Ford race, theres nothing that says he can't, but where is the challenge?. I moved down to GT3 because I was having a hard time being fast consistently in GT1. GT3 is still fast, but it is easier to focus on line than in GT1. I can be more deliberate with where I put the car. I still like the speed of GT1 , but I had to be realistic. GT1 is about as close as you can get to a proclass.
Pretty much my sentiments for why I stepped down from GT1. In addition, I got tired of putting the car on the ragged edge to be fast and chasing the setup all day. I have been wanting some of the latest chassis which I felt running an older car would also put me at a disadvantage. Although some guys still run and win with older cars.


I tend to share many of the thoughts as MD. We have talked many hours over phone, email and in person. It seems especially the past 2-3 years the series has gotten more competitive and harder for the entry level, newer racer and in-experienced racer to fit into TCS. I am a veteran to the series and never ran spec and never will run spec. I like the spec concept of it but feel there needs to be a place for kids to run and lesser experienced racers to run. Really there is not. People like Hawk6 or f1larry and their sons, need to feel like they have a chance and want to keep coming back because they had fun and felt they had a chance at being competitive. Many times if the kids don't have fun, usually their parents will not come back due to fathers trying to create a father/son type of event at TCS. It was that way with one of my friends. That is how he tried to justify annual vacation time that is taken away from family outings in racing TCS, they make TCS into a family outing. Maybe Spec should be you cannot have A-main wins or run a 2nd GT class.. dunno, there needs to be a limitation to keep the experienced-out and in-experienced in.

2008 should be exciting to see what and how they change the rules. . .
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Old 09-14-2007, 11:25 AM
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People like Hawk6 or f1larry and their sons, need to feel like they have a chance and want to keep coming back because they had fun and felt they had a chance at being competitive. Many times if the kids don't have fun, usually their parents will not come back due to fathers trying to create a father/son type of event at TCS.
This was the first year that my son participated in a regional event. He ran the Spec class and had a great time, so much so that he asked if he could attend the Finals. We/I had to be realistic in the fact that he was not nearly good enough to run any of the classes offered in the Finals. GT1, no way, GT2, no way, mini, no way. Yes, we could have run one of the exhibition classes BUT we would have had to buy a new car and you know the rest blah blah blah.

The Finals should and need to have a SPEC class for the people that run it during the regionals, instead of having them jump up a class and not be competitive at all. This is all moot of course if Tamiya is looking to upgrade the TCS racing series event in to something like Reedy or any of the bigger races throughout the country and yes I am aware that in many ways it might be bigger than some of those races.
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Old 09-14-2007, 11:28 AM
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Some simple thoughts from a simple driver......

Doc - I can give you a fish. As for the extra 200 rpm, your on your own there.

Spec class - drivers running spec should only run spec and no other classes. After all, the class is supposed to be for Novice / beginners.

Getting more people in - Start a newbie in spec. If you have a TA05 or TB-02, run GT-3. If you think that for people to keep interest in racing they need a class made for them so they can still win spending little bucks with little talent and little experience, they need to go back to our politically correct schools that teach kids that everybody is a winner and there are no losers. Otherwise, welcome to reality and enjoy racing. Oh yeah, I was in the D main my first year at the TCS Nats in 2003. I did not cry that I was out spent, I got beat by guys that were better drivers and knew how to set-up their cars and motors better. Oh yeah, and some even had better equipment.

Brushless and Lipo - they are the future. I ran this set-up at one of the "fun races" Fred set-up. Not only could I run my car, I also crewed on two TA05's for my G/F and my friends son whom this was his first race. Between the two of them, they managed to break at least one car each run and we had three qualifiers. I had time to fix thier cars and still goof off. No motor and battery maintenance means more driving. The costs in one year for Lipo's and brushless is less than you will spend on brushed and NIMH. Plus, all these people who talk about how expensive it is for newbie's to get into racing, have you noticed how many are buying brushless systems to start because of the lack of work and cost versus a good high end brushed system. Think about it, you can go fast like the big boys without knowing all the vodoo secrets to tuning and you get to run pack, after pack, after pack.....

Guys running GT-3 that could qualify in GT-1 - this will always be a debate with a difficult if not impossible answer. Fred does what he can to keep the guys who are the back door "B" team sponsored drivers in GT-1. But as long as you have prizes at each race and a trip to Japan at the end of the year, you will get people who will push the limit and the rules to win and get those prizes. This is a grey area that will always be as clear as a muddy crystal ball. If you disagree, see the discussion on why sponsored team drivers run stock class at big races.

With that said, I will look forward to practicing tomorrow with my TA05, Novak 13.5 brushless system, Orion 4800 LIPO and used B3's from the Nats and make about 8 or 9 runs compared the the 4-5 I was lucky to make with the NIMH / Brushed combo. Oh yeah, and all the "maintenance" I have done since last weekend running the same car was to charge the LIPO. I love to be able to be so lazy at the track now and use the excuse that I am simply "embracing the future". That sounds so much better.
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Old 09-14-2007, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by minicooper
This was the first year that my son participated in a regional event. He ran the Spec class and had a great time, so much so that he asked if he could attend the Finals. We/I had to be realistic in the fact that he was not nearly good enough to run any of the classes offered in the Finals. GT1, no way, GT2, no way, mini, no way. Yes, we could have run one of the exhibition classes BUT we would have had to buy a new car and you know the rest blah blah blah.

The Finals should and need to have a SPEC class for the people that run it during the regionals, instead of having them jump up a class and not be competitive at all. This is all moot of course if Tamiya is looking to upgrade the TCS racing series event in to something like Reedy or any of the bigger races throughout the country and yes I am aware that in many ways it might be bigger than some of those races.
Admit it Mini, Joshua just did not want to get beat by Tigress in GT-2 !
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:21 PM
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Oh yeah, I was in the D main my first year at the TCS Nats in 2003.
In 2003 was in the E main... Fast forward to this year and I was in the D-main in GT1 (and I wasn't last for a change )
Getting more people in - Start a newbie in spec. If you have a TA05 or TB-02, run GT-3.
yeah, but make SPEC and GT3 available at the finals for the newbies. Bet they'll be back running the other classes in a year...
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