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Old 09-13-2007, 03:39 PM
  #6586  
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Originally Posted by raffaelli
Seems to me that the spirit of the TCS is chassis based with power and motor secondary. Your listing makes no reference to chassis. I suppose under your rules I can bring my 415 to the GT4 party?

I was looking at open chassis for GT1 & GT2 and Tub for GT3 & GT4.
Which is within the spirit of the current rules.
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Old 09-13-2007, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Difuser
As for LiPo costing too much that is just getting old. Jeff you even proved it by stating you had to buy new chargers for your 4200's. If you bought without the thought of LiPo shame on you. That said 1 extra charger and LiPo is not ending a racing budget. You spend more than that yearly to maintain a TA05 and if you don't then don't expect to make the A at Nats.....
Wow, wake up on the wrong side of the coast today. . .

I never said anything in my post about Lipo costing too much
Just said it was another expense I was not into. When I got my red 4200s about 2 years ago my old chargers could not charge them properly, some of my 3800s were even venting. If I was an idiot I would have bought any old charger but instead I actually put thought into it to buy a Lipo charger plus. So shame on you. Later that year I bought a 2nd. Today it really does not matter because Lipo chargers can be bought pretty cheaply.

About making the A at the Nats, I consider the A-B to be very competitive and an honor to be in either. I know this year I was turning times that would have podiumed last years nats. Probably the best I have ever turned period. My preperation was 6 months and running with no certain terms of being able to physically be at the Nats. I did not have 2 or 3 mini's packed away like you did. My efforts went into building and maintaining 1 car. With a vast supply of supporting parts and electronics. I may not have the newest radio, car generation or chargers but I know I did not have to pump my batteries to do what I did, imagine if I did.

Maybe one day I will print out this post and make you eat it... maybe one day when the heavens align, cars run on solar power and I win the Nats.
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Old 09-13-2007, 04:09 PM
  #6588  
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I agree on the voltage part.Very true.Especially if there is a mandatory weight requirement.
Originally Posted by Difuser
BTW--racenut you are spot on. That said I would still take a NiMH cell anyday for it's vltg. Yes it is gonna cost more but the battery is still faster. Now if we change the raceclock..........
LiPo safety is just that safe if YOU the consumer have the equipment and knowledge. My 600 Helis is running 6S 5000mah packs and my 450 is running 3S 2150mah packs way more capacity and Voltage than any Sedan pack.....
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Old 09-13-2007, 04:29 PM
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Now how many of you can say you put that time in for '07?
(raises hand)

But then, I'm old and slow...
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Old 09-13-2007, 04:42 PM
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When we're discussing lipos and brushless systems, then we're not talking about a "low cost" series for the "new or intermediate" drivers. I have nothing against lipos and brushless systems. If people want to eliminate sportsman type drivers that would be too bad. I believe that the biggest buyers of Tamiya cars are the average person who wants to build a car that cost a rerasonable price. At the moment I can see that there are many people who would like to eliminate the average person from participation. I thinks it great that people enjoy putting lots of time and money into their effort, but many people do not participate because they want to compete as Tamiya says in a "low cost" series that "is fun and easy to get into," but there is not such a class. I know GT3 is supposed to be that, but with the time spent on motor prep it's not.
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Old 09-13-2007, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by rccardr
(raises hand)

But then, I'm old and slow...
*raises hand*

i'm the first to praise..and last to criticize... doc, at least you can drive. and to think im not even "older" yet.

i had motor, the car, tires....and i still sucked. thats what i get for going to vegas instead of practice!

FAILURE!
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Old 09-13-2007, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by MD
When we're discussing lipos and brushless systems, then we're not talking about a "low cost" series for the "new or intermediate" drivers. I have nothing against lipos and brushless systems. If people want to eliminate sportsman type drivers that would be too bad. I believe that the biggest buyers of Tamiya cars are the average person who wants to build a car that cost a rerasonable price. At the moment I can see that there are many people who would like to eliminate the average person from participation. I thinks it great that people enjoy putting lots of time and money into their effort, but many people do not participate because they want to compete as Tamiya says in a "low cost" series that "is fun and easy to get into," but there is not such a class. I know GT3 is supposed to be that, but with the time spent on motor prep it's not.
i dont get it? how will implementing BL get rid of sportsman drivers? you ACTUALLY want to deal with tuning a brushed stock motor? instead of using a BL system? down here in socal, BL is widely accepted in all classes. From the Camarillo and BCR tracks to local parking lot tracks. a lot of people are turning to BL so they can learn set up (me included) more. and spend less time d!cking with a brushed motor. more track time

and from a $$$ standpoint. since im on the verge of getting married and buying another house (less racing AND food for me, two things i dearly love )... BL has allowed me to race the same if not more since i dont have to spend $40 in brushes and $80 in motors for a race season. ($120 in brushed motors for one season). i bought a BL system that's going into its second year.

i'll let john hicks chime in about the norcal scene and how many people are running BL up there.

and there's a steady growing class up in seattle that run 13.5.
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Old 09-13-2007, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Hebiki
hey kevin.. i want TCS to have a TA05, silver can, Ferrari Modena body that only allows drivers who are Filipinos born in March class. that way i'll always be in the A-main!

all in jest people.. good discussion here.
And it has to have lightweight suspension and transparent blue gear boxes only. Is there a certain week in March ? We will talk to Fred this weekend for you !

Yes people, Hebiki and I are good friends and this is all in good fun. Long Live TCS !
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Old 09-13-2007, 05:45 PM
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Amen, Chris!

Brushless/Lipo IMO would do more to level the playing field than any spec/silvercan class ever could. That's what I would consider the ultimate goal of a "sportsman" class to be. Sportsman = Spec, right? The GT4/Formula GT class would be the ultimate equalizer for equipment, and is one of the reasons I'm all for it. The lower maintenance is just a bonus.

I picked up Lipos for the F103GT class last year, and I'm hooked. You can charge them before you get to the track, then just recharge between rounds. You can even leave the same pack taped in the chassis. With NiMH batteries you have to take them out, equalize them, let them sit to cool, grab a second pack, then time your next charge cycle perfectly to get the maximum peak. Don't forget to hold your breath while they charge. Remember Laurel? BOOM!

Racing is racing, and it's never "cheap" to be competitive. Close competition is what most racers would like to see. Put it in the driver's hands: chassis balance, set-up, driving skills, and that little "edge" with special inserts or sauce. Keep the horsepower close and leave the voodoo magic motor doctoring to Mikey Wall-drip!

I'm not talking about a "novice" or "rookie" class.....That's another debate all together.
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Old 09-13-2007, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Hebiki
hey kevin.. i want TCS to have a TA05, silver can, Ferrari Modena body that only allows drivers who are Filipinos born in March class. that way i'll always be in the A-main!

all in jest people.. good discussion here.
Hey, I was in the Philipines in March once, does that count?

Fred
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Old 09-13-2007, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by MD
Kevin CBR - I don't mind being in a C or D main, but for sportsman like myself, I would like to run against drivers who have a limited budget. I don't care what kind of car it is. If not Tamiya should not state that the TCS is a "low cost" program for "new or intermediate" R/C racers. If they provided a sportsman class it would help grow the whole series. As it exists right now many drivers are discouraged from competing because the money they have to pay to compete at a higher level. I don't care what batteries people want to run, but the higher the cost the fewer average drivers like myself will participate. Even in the Novak race at Trackside there's a sportsman class. I think there's a sportsman class in many races and series throughout the country. I think it would be great to see more young drivers who grow into TCS champions, but you have to open it up to more people, or make it an elite series. The TCS is a very good series, but it has room for participation.
So, how much was the entry fee for the Novak race ? How much is the entry fee for a TCS race ? And of the A main drivers in the Novak Sportsman class, how many were running brand new batteries, new tires, cutting thier motor every run ? I don't expect an actual answer, the point is racing is racing. Peope will spend money at any level. If you want to have fun and spend very little, expect to be at the back unless you have uber talent. That is why racing is known as a "competitive" sport. Tamiya is already spending more money to "open the sport" to new drivers than any other manufacture with the TCS series.

I recently built a full TA05 with electronics from spares and gave it and an old controler, charger and batteries I don't use any more and 2 or 3 run tires to a best friends kid. He goes out to Tamiya N/A track with us on some Saturdays and is hooked. At the local parking lot races, we made friends this last year with some other Tamiya drivers and talked them into coming out to run TCS. That is how you get new blood into TCS.
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Old 09-13-2007, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by raffaelli
Seems to me that the spirit of the TCS is chassis based with power and motor secondary. Your listing makes no reference to chassis. I suppose under your rules I can bring my 415 to the GT4 party?
Sorry for not saying this, but I would say keep the chassis rules as they are, so dual deck/any chassis for GT-1, Tub Chassis for gt-2, gt-3, and gt-4.

MD, the TCS series hasn't been "Low Cost" in many, many years...some would argue due to the cost of kits and to make them competitive/handle well that it's always been a costlier series. In terms of initial investment, yes there is a little more where brushless is involved but there is no need for a comm lathe, brushes, comm wear, and there is a ton of time saved where you're not wrenching on motors. By encouraging the use of Li-Po and Brushless, while costing more initially, will save racers money as the cost is spread over numberous events and time. And as Dan said, for those who are looking for an edge, right now at least, NiMH batteries have a voltage advantage. But for those of us who only race TCS really for electric events, it is more advantageous to go Li-Po as they won't degrade like NiMH will.
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Old 09-13-2007, 07:14 PM
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I work with a student R/C club and we get kids nvolved by making it affordable. This is an expensive hobby. I appreciate all that Tamiya does. i realize the R/C racing like any other contest is competitive, but again I quote Tamiya "low cost" series for "new and intermediate drivers." That's Tamiya's stated philosophy. If you look around at a Tamiya race there is a very small percentage of younger drivers. I am guessing that a very high percentage of the Tamiya kits sold in the U.S. belong to younger drivers. If you look at the novice class there are very few young drivers or new drivers. You often see the same drivers each year. I guess your answer to people who want to compete on a tight budget is to go to the end of line. I disagree. A sportsman class with battery limits is a good a idea to get more people involved. If you want the Tamiya series to become like other highly competitve racing series, I guess that's o.k., but you will lose a lot of potential racers and customers for Tamiya.
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Old 09-13-2007, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by RCGaryK
MD, the TCS series hasn't been "Low Cost" in many, many years...some would argue due to the cost of kits and to make them competitive/handle well that it's always been a costlier series.
I'd disagree Gary. I'd guess 70% or so of TCS participants don't go to the Nationals and never plan to (like me). For at least some of us, the regional TCS race is our "big race" for the year. Hopefully Fred and Co. will remember the low cost aspect of TCS racing for the 70% (or whatever the percentage really is).
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Old 09-13-2007, 07:32 PM
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WOW!! I'm out of breath from reading all the stuff above.
First off, I know I am somewhat known for being arguementitive and tending to bitch alot. I am going to try and refrain from both.
As far as the Lipo controversy, I have converted and if I can help it will never go back to the old style cells. Most of the Lipo capable chargers do the guess work for you, as long as you know what battery you have. I have both the Orion Flight charger and the Checkpoint ICE charger, and both do an awesome job of charging the Lipo packs, the packs don't even get warm during charging.
Now on to brushless. I am planning to go BL over the winter, I don't know much about them, but the little that I do know makes them very attractive to me. I am at a point in my life where I dont have time to screw around turning comms and cycling cells. I want to pick up and go, not be sitting in the basement trying to find 200 more RPM. The only rant I have about GT3 is that the TQ at Trackside for GT3 would have been 4th on the grid for GT1 at the same event. I am not going to make accusations on this person, but if you can run fast enough to be in the GT1 A, then why are you running GT3. I ran GT3 because I thought I could compete to win, and I got my ass handed to me. I won the B, but there was a bit of dejection as I podiumed the year before, and made alot of improvements to the car hoping to be more competitive. I like the idea of BL/Lipo. I think the real area that needs to be addressed is the speed similarity between classes. I think that GT1 should be left alone. GT2 and 3 should keep the same motor rules, but maybe should move to Lipo. The biggest change I would make is in tires and bodies. GT3 should run 26MM treaded rubber (M2 Radials or Super Grip Radials) and true sedan bodies . GT2 should run the 26MM Type A Slicks or M2/ Super Slicks and run the same body rules as the Nats. I believe this would give a true speed differential, as well as making it more interesting for the spectators. As it is now, unless you are following along, you don't know what class you are watching. Finally, Let the M-Chassis guys run the Orion 3200 Lipo. Just my $.25
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