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Old 08-27-2006, 12:53 PM
  #3976  
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Many good and cool idea's, but any added complication for us typical R/C racers usually ends in disaster. I spoke with Gary K yesterday and he explained his idea. I think it could lead to meltdown of the event unless it is further tweaked.

Here is my tweak idea: Qualifying heats set up like they were a few years ago. Each driver has run a regional. Take their best regional finishing position and give them a point for that position, ie, 1 for first, 2 for second...and so on. Arrange the qual heats using their finish number. All the 1st and maybe some seconds together. You get it. Second classes or additionl regional finish's could be a tie breaker, rewarding those who support the series. That should place drivers of similar talent together.

Now, keep the same 5 min. qualifying heat format as far as track time. (don't want to reinvent the wheel) Drivers schedule their battery peak, go though tech, line up for driving spots, and marshal all the same. The DIFFERANCE is only count the top X (10 or 7 or 5) laps for each driver. Your position is determined by your average (or total) time for X laps for that round. This way one or two mishaps or getting stuck behind a slower car will not dash your qualifying run. You can simply back off of a slower group of cars if you want and blow only one lap. Drivers will be more agreable to letting others by for clear track or to not have someone hound you from behind. You would still have lots of time to get in your fast clean laps. That is how the 1:1 cars approach a qualifying session.

I think the qual point system worked great this year to equalize track conditions thoughout the day. I suggest the qual points per round stay for 2007.

Don't judge it until you think about it. Program and track time remains the same. Tech doesn't need to worry about cars returning to the pits. We still ahve corner marshals (thanks again for all those who pointed me in the right dirrection). No added time to the day. No need to have people waiting for their frequence clips during qualifying because the heats are set up just like now. IT JUST PLAIN WORKS! If you want some new twist, this could be it with little effect on the program timing but making it totally fair for the guy who got (unfortunatly) hacked.

I checked the GT-1 qualifying results. The top five guys would have qualified in the same positions and the others would have been very similar.

Fred could even try it out at a regional or two or all.

Marty
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Old 08-27-2006, 01:37 PM
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I like the pre-qualifying idea based on finishes in the regionals. However, how do you handle someone that finished in an A-main at a regional in a class such as GT3 or Spec, but runs mini or GT2 in the Nats? Do you get bumped to the back of the class? I suppose a ranking system would force drivers into the class they plan to race at the Nats for each regional race they attend. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it may prevent people from playing in different classes at the regionals (ex. F103GT or F201 if it survives another year).

This also puts a greater importance on running the regional races with the same motor rules as the Nats. This would have helped me get a better feel for those odd ball 23-turn motors BEFORE qualifying on Saturday. I had monster rip at the regionals (thanks EA!), but I was a slug at the Nats this year. I just couldn't find the sweet spot for those motors.

Keep it the same or change it up......No matter what happens I'll be back next year. I enjoy these TCS events more than any other organized racing I've been involved with. Just like your job, it's the PEOPLE that keep you around regardless of what gets tossed your way. I've made several friends in this series, and as long as they're willing to travel around racing toy cars, I'll try to be there with them!

Thanks again Fred, Gary, Phil, and the rest of the Tamiya gang! You give up your weekends and take time away from your families so we can have a good time. And to repay you we toss around a zillion ways to "make it better" on this message board.
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Old 08-27-2006, 05:31 PM
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A bone stock (other than springs) 414M purchased new in 2001 for $300 on Three run old B3's. That's what it took to get you in the GT-1 A main.
Marty, you forgot to mention the super-expensive customized body work on that 414 (see attached)
Attached Thumbnails Tamiya Championship Series-marty-car-front-end-damage.jpg  
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Old 08-27-2006, 06:00 PM
  #3979  
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Originally Posted by 414MPH
Many good and cool idea's, but any added complication for us typical R/C racers usually ends in disaster. I spoke with Gary K yesterday and he explained his idea. I think it could lead to meltdown of the event unless it is further tweaked.

Here is my tweak idea: Qualifying heats set up like they were a few years ago. Each driver has run a regional. Take their best regional finishing position and give them a point for that position, ie, 1 for first, 2 for second...and so on. Arrange the qual heats using their finish number. All the 1st and maybe some seconds together. You get it. Second classes or additionl regional finish's could be a tie breaker, rewarding those who support the series. That should place drivers of similar talent together.

Now, keep the same 5 min. qualifying heat format as far as track time. (don't want to reinvent the wheel) Drivers schedule their battery peak, go though tech, line up for driving spots, and marshal all the same. The DIFFERANCE is only count the top X (10 or 7 or 5) laps for each driver. Your position is determined by your average (or total) time for X laps for that round. This way one or two mishaps or getting stuck behind a slower car will not dash your qualifying run. You can simply back off of a slower group of cars if you want and blow only one lap. Drivers will be more agreable to letting others by for clear track or to not have someone hound you from behind. You would still have lots of time to get in your fast clean laps. That is how the 1:1 cars approach a qualifying session.

I think the qual point system worked great this year to equalize track conditions thoughout the day. I suggest the qual points per round stay for 2007.

Don't judge it until you think about it. Program and track time remains the same. Tech doesn't need to worry about cars returning to the pits. We still ahve corner marshals (thanks again for all those who pointed me in the right dirrection). No added time to the day. No need to have people waiting for their frequence clips during qualifying because the heats are set up just like now. IT JUST PLAIN WORKS! If you want some new twist, this could be it with little effect on the program timing but making it totally fair for the guy who got (unfortunatly) hacked.

I checked the GT-1 qualifying results. The top five guys would have qualified in the same positions and the others would have been very similar.

Fred could even try it out at a regional or two or all.

Marty
http://www.wisconsinrctouringcarseries.com/
I think simplicity is best and a change is needed. A minor flaw in my system mentioned or Garys is getting marshals to go out and watch the track.

A regional point system for best results would probably work best. Go by your best finish and organize the heats with that method that you mentioned. If racers goto many races the extra races could be used like a tie breaker type scenario for best finishes.

If people only run the F103GT and F201, they would not have any points towards GT1 and GT2. Which brings back the importance of running certain classes for regionals per individual if they want to race the Nats. If a person sucked miserably running GT2 at the regionals, then they might want to look at another race to goto if they plan on running at the Nats with a good pre-sort.

On taking the best laptimes I would be in favor than that but would rather up the % from 50 or below to around 70% to 80% of the laptimes. You want to help the drivers that have clean runs and a few mishaps. Although with a pre-sorted qualifying with using the regional race points any mishaps will be diminished, hopefully.

We can learn a lot from 1:1 racing. I keep thinking about the SCCA and their GT1, GT2, GT3, GT4 and GT5 (fastest to slowest) classes. . .would be cool with TCS although some classes do not seem to have staying power to justify change.

I think it is good to talk about this stuff, do some mental bench testing, find flaws that would not enable a given system to work. Who knows if it is deemed really cool then maybe it will trickle to the regional races.
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Old 08-27-2006, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by rccardr
Marty, you forgot to mention the super-expensive customized body work on that 414 (see attached)
I missed that spy photo. . . taking notes

back to my b-day. . .
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Old 08-27-2006, 07:33 PM
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The fact that there is a healthy debate about this is good, and the idea sharing. I think it gives us all a sense of ownership in the series rather than just the like it or lump it mentality. Fred is a creative guy and he will disseminate the good parts and the bad parts and make something work. I believe that there are many functions already built into the scoring software that we are not aware of, because every track goes straight to the IFMAR format as a default. There has to be a way to get racers involved on a local level, to feed the regionals, and in turn feed the nats to keep this whole thing going. Not that TCS is in trouble, I think many events broke attendance records, but as we all know you cant rest on your laurels.
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Old 08-27-2006, 07:45 PM
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I'm sure many of the software packages out there have something different. Fred is already looking into options in RC Scoring Pro, and I'm sure Doug would be willing to develop something if needed. I know Jlap has a driver ranking system that can be turned on to set the heats, but we never use it because we rarely bring in more than 10 drivers in a class. Problem is, each track provides their own scoring/timing system and they may not be compatible. That is unless Tamiya brings "THE OFFICIAL TCS LAPTOP SCORING SYSTEM" to each venue.

They can ship it in the same box as all of the spec batteries, motors, tires, etc.......
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Old 08-27-2006, 08:00 PM
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i thought that Tamiya brought their own computer in the first place, at least they used to. If expense is an issue, they could always throw it on the Factory Team Hickman Transporter that goes to every race. It would be available for pick up at the Hickman Memorial Staging Area at each event.
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Old 08-27-2006, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by BP SHADOW
i thought that Tamiya brought their own computer in the first place, at least they used to. If expense is an issue, they could always throw it on the Factory Team Hickman Transporter that goes to every race. It would be available for pick up at the Hickman Memorial Staging Area at each event.
So Brad,
You shot down my idea of the Season Points accumulation like F1, I do not think the 15 min sessions like the current F1 program would work with electric cars? now if we were running gas cars I think it would work since you would have a pit man to assist you. I believe we should just stay with the IFMAR type grid staggard start for quaili but determine the grid order by a ranking system based on the drivers performance from previous races. The Mains would be heads up racing as usual. We could all just line up on line (like the old days and go for it and sweep up the carbon shards in the 1st corner)???

By the way, we did have the "Hickman Staging Area" for this years race but even with all that tons of equipment I was "BACK IN THE "B" MAIN AGAIN.
I really struggled to get a grip on Running those "Black Can Missles" my TAO5 just had no acceleration or punch with that motor. I was chasing the gearing torque curve all weekend. It did not help running the whole season with "Monster and CO27" horsepower in the car just to get to the Nats and run those motors, all 3 of my spec motors were "Barking at the Moon" down the front straight. When the fast guys would pass me down the straight like I had a boat anchor strapped to my rear bumper the turbulent air from there car would cause a "Buffeting Effect" on my car and push me off the track!!!!
Oh well back to the printer in the basement and print some more money for next season.
Steve.
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Old 08-27-2006, 08:44 PM
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I allready see a flaw, don't know if or how it could be corrected, in the national ranking system.
Take the Seattle TCS, I was there so I will use it as an example.
GT1: 1st Arron from cal. 2nd Juan from cal. 3rd Ty Follis local, 4th Chris Lim Canada and 5th Fred Forg (me) local

GT2: 1st Juan from Cal, 2nd Chris Lim from Cal (ya there were 2 Chris Lim's) 3rd Kevin M local

So I finished 5th, but was the second local in GT1, and in GT2 Kevin M finished 3rd but was the fist local.
With my finish, would I be down in the lower ranks of qualifying ratings, or since I was second local would I be ranked higher.
This same scenerio was also in GT3 and Mini
How will the traveling racers be figured into the system? They are fun to hang out and race with and bring a lot to the series. But not all of us can afford the traveling. I and my son went to the Reedy Race again this year and ran the practice, run in a qual format that I know works great for all, same group for practice and quals till the resort.
The 2 days of this format alowed all 10 drivers to work together and made the first quals before the resort into high speed qual sessions. Travis was in my group and I think he did his TQ during one of those runs.
Make Fri into 4 or 5 run practice/qual groups, you get to know each other and who's fast instead of everyone going for broke and not letting passes happen, that way all the times improve.
We plan on being back next year!
Fred Forg
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Old 08-27-2006, 09:51 PM
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Steve,
I was not/ did not shoot down any of your ideas, I was simply poking fun at the F1 reference come on lighten up will ya (jeez)
@ C_O - If I had to guess I think they would give you so many points for an A main appearance in class and maybe bonus for wins and podium finishes, then you go down the list and people who ran multiple regionals would probably occupy the fast quals and on down the line. I think it would even itself out because as they say the cream always rises to the top or something, so the fast guys will find their way to the front. It will be pretty cool if any or all of this comes to fruition, it will be a nice change from the typical way of doing things. Although I have been out of action for 2 years from the nats and am about to go through a major life event shortly, I am already setting the wheels in motion for next season including the nats.
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Old 08-27-2006, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by C_O_jones
I allready see a flaw, don't know if or how it could be corrected, in the national ranking system.
Take the Seattle TCS, I was there so I will use it as an example.
GT1: 1st Arron from cal. 2nd Juan from cal. 3rd Ty Follis local, 4th Chris Lim Canada and 5th Fred Forg (me) local

GT2: 1st Juan from Cal, 2nd Chris Lim from Cal (ya there were 2 Chris Lim's) 3rd Kevin M local

So I finished 5th, but was the second local in GT1, and in GT2 Kevin M finished 3rd but was the fist local.
With my finish, would I be down in the lower ranks of qualifying ratings, or since I was second local would I be ranked higher.
This same scenerio was also in GT3 and Mini
How will the traveling racers be figured into the system? They are fun to hang out and race with and bring a lot to the series. But not all of us can afford the traveling. I and my son went to the Reedy Race again this year and ran the practice, run in a qual format that I know works great for all, same group for practice and quals till the resort.
The 2 days of this format alowed all 10 drivers to work together and made the first quals before the resort into high speed qual sessions. Travis was in my group and I think he did his TQ during one of those runs.
Make Fri into 4 or 5 run practice/qual groups, you get to know each other and who's fast instead of everyone going for broke and not letting passes happen, that way all the times improve.
We plan on being back next year!
Fred Forg
It would be straight forward scoring. So you would get 5 points for GT1. In Memphis I got TQ and 3rd, which should be 2 points towards GT3. Which presents a minor flaw of what to do with GT3 and GT2 for the Nats. I would guess you would funnel them into 1 class for the Nats as far as points go. The advantage of going to more than 1 race a year is you get more chances to better your position or generate more points for breaking ties. I don't see National Points as a big deal, just an aid in filtering like drivers.

Seperating locals from travelers or those who goto the Nats vs those who don't just makes it more complicated. It really does nothing other than to complicate the job for Tamiya who collects the points.

The National resort only helps put like drivers together for the Nats. I know my Round 1 I could have used it. I got hacked twice which could have been the one of the factors to keep me out of the bottom of the A. Some racers are still learning finess on the track and at a big race I would rather be with like abilitys which a national scoring would offer.

Looking back at your 5th. It is not bad, you might endup in the A or B main sort of drivers. Which would mean little to no hacking for you. . .
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Old 08-27-2006, 11:13 PM
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Aren't the Nats allready "A" main drivers with a few walkups? I know that participating in a TCS regional lets you become a walkup, but how many are there?

With the closest other TCS 1,000 miles away its not easy to travel to.
Here in Seattle we also have Canadian drivers that are not eligable for our TCS qual, 2 in GT1 main alone. One poor finish could drop you way down the list.
The Tamiya class is not very large and only at one track here in the NW.
The GT3 class was up until right before the TCS open chassis and tires, same with GT1&2.
Onother option is to do a Pre-qual qualifier, most if not all people show up on Fri, have one round qual at the end of the day to set the sort for Sat.
Fred Forg
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Old 08-27-2006, 11:15 PM
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There were alot of walk ups at the Nats...I would estimate more than 50 in all of the classes.
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Old 08-27-2006, 11:25 PM
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Didn't relize that there were that many, then just goup them together, the rest of the A mainers should be OK together.
At the Reedy, the first quals where everybody had spent time together were pretty smooth, it did get hairy in the faster groups after the resort.
One day of controlled practice when you know when your up,10 cars on the track,car teched, batts peaked, tires prepped and no freq clip to wait for makes things a lot smoother on Sat when it all counts.
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