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Old 08-25-2006, 03:47 PM
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Fred - you did a great job on parity in '06 and like the idea of playing with new ideas. Short and quick thoughts for '07:

Bodies - GT-2/3 Regional and Nationals no NSX or Ferrari. The various bodies made it more fun to watch.

Motors - regional 19T and stock might be interesting. If we are trying to mimick Japan, they only have 23T and open mod. Various options ?

National motors - Silver cans for GT-2. Since everyone is so worried about "costs" why is it not a concern to by motors you will never use again ? AT least a silver can can be used at next year's regionals.

Tires - leave as is. Spec tire / tire limits. This is the Nationals, right ? No one has ever mentioned a tire limit for regionals. Run what you want. I guarantee there are people running 1-run tires at regionals. Leave the cost effectiveness, keep it cheap to bring in new blood attitude for the regionals. If there is such a concern about keeping it spec to level the field and keeping costs down, then how about TEU speed controls that can't be adjusted. For such a big race, it gets tiring after awhile to hear people constanly pound the how do we limit the costs and how do we make everyone equal drum.

Qualifying - with the limited power that silver and black can motors have, a turn one cluster pooch almost guarantees a bad qualifying run as close as the competition level is at the front. If there is any question about turn one, just look at a lot of the past champs race starts at this last Nationals. With every thing being done in the interest of a "level playing field", IFMAR starts are the most level way to run qualifying.
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Old 08-25-2006, 04:17 PM
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There should be a new rule regarding motor throwers though. Anyone caught throwing a motor gets buried up to his neck and has motors thrown at him. Just a thought
ouch
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Old 08-25-2006, 05:27 PM
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[QUOTE=Kevin CBR]Fred - you did a great job on parity in '06 and like the idea of playing with new ideas. Short and quick thoughts for '07:
Tires - leave as is. Spec tire / tire limits. This is the Nationals, right ? No one has ever mentioned a tire limit for regionals. Run what you want. I guarantee there are people running 1-run tires at regionals. Leave the cost effectiveness, keep it cheap to bring in new blood attitude for the regionals

Thats easy for you to say when you live an hour away by car, but for those of us that spend $300-$400 in airfare to come out there it is a big deal. Add another 300 + for hotel and rental car and keep going. I am not saying that I mind spending money, but the line needs to be drawn somewhere. I have not attended the nats for two years now for various reasons , but most of all because of money, and if the trend continues to be 1 run rubber to be competitive, im out for good. I believe I have attended 7 or 8 of the 12 national events , and I like doing them but as I said at some point enough is enough, and I will not come out just to drive around in circles in the E main ( there ya go Katzer open season) If you want to make it the TCS California Nationals and just have locals come thats the perfect way to do it. The TCS is the best and pretty much only one of its kind, and if it falls off because of overindulgence, it would be a shame. Yeah you could say im a bit fired up
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Old 08-25-2006, 08:25 PM
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In SCCA (that would be 1:1 scale racing) The National Championships were held for 20+ years at Road Atlanta in Georgia. Now factor the cost to trailer a car back East, lodging and misc for a full week, tires that were $ 500 per set, and you still got drivers from all around the US racing against the locals. Why, it was the AMATEUR road racing championships. Oh yeah, 1st place got you a checkered flag and a trophy, not a trip to Japan. Racing costs money. Even using the Nascar limited tire rule, look at the cost for that series. TCS is a great series and the Nationals attract top drivers from around the US (and in case of our now current GT-2 NA champion, Canada. Congratulation Keith !). But where does all this "spec" and "limit the cost" banter get us ? Hand out TA05's with no hop-ups, bearings only, 1 motor and 1 set of tires for the weekend ? Hey, that would really put an emphasis on driving, tuning and parts management.

Last edited by Kevin CBR; 08-26-2006 at 09:03 PM.
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Old 08-25-2006, 08:48 PM
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Dude you should hook up with hickmiester, next stop Monaco ! or Fantasyland
TCS Nats is a prestigious event , I dont think anyone would argue that . But it is still a toy car. The SCCA runoffs are real cars, and amatuer or not alot of those guys have some sort of sponsorship deals, it is not the same and not even near comparable. I used to crew in World Challenge and that is another spendfest, I know that speed costs money. Your last statement was right on the money and it is what TCS started out as; you buy the kit, you build it, you race it and you can hop it up if you want. There are plenty of other series and events out there where you can spend till your broke, this shouldnt be one of them. The whole concept of TCS is to promote attention to detail, car set up , and driver skill. If you look at what killed other classes such as 12th scale and oval, it is this exact issue. People got tired of remortgaging their houses to compete with toy cars. I dont want to see that happen to TCS, and if things continue people will lose interest in it and you sure wont attract any newcomers to it because they wont want that kind of financial burden for a hobby.
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Old 08-25-2006, 10:16 PM
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FM, Since when did TCS became so complex? Stay with the basics, keep everything tamiya, spec it to the max and let the driving do the talking. Let it stay for amateurs. You want to mix up pros, manufacturers, owners, make a class for them. Maybe this is one reason why we can't get a win at JP because we get so used to all this tecnicalities we panic when we find out your running a 2400 stick pack at the worlds. Did any of you get the KO Propo DVD for Free?
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Old 08-25-2006, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Kevin CBR
In SCCA (that would be 1:1 scale racing) The National Championships were held for 20+ years at Road Atlanta in Georgia. Now factor the cost to trailer a car back East, lodging and misc for a full week, tires that were $ 500 per set, and you still got drivers from all around the US racing against the locals. Why, it was the AMATEUR road racing championships. Oh yeah, 1st place got you a checkered flag and a trophy, not a trip to Japan. Racing costs money. Even using the Nascar limited tire rule, look at the cost for that series. TCS is a great series and the Nationals attract top drivers from around the US (and in case of our now current GT-2 NA champion, Canada. Congratulation Tony !). But where does all this "spec" and "limit the cost" banter get us ? Hand out TA05's with no hop-ups, bearings only, 1 motor and 1 set of tires for the weekend ? Hey, that would really put an emphasis on driving, tuning and parts management.
kevin.. KEITH YU won GT2
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Old 08-26-2006, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by BP SHADOW
Thats easy for you to say when you live an hour away by car, but for those of us that spend $300-$400 in airfare to come out there it is a big deal. Add another 300 + for hotel and rental car and keep going. I am not saying that I mind spending money, but the line needs to be drawn somewhere. I have not attended the nats for two years now for various reasons , but most of all because of money, and if the trend continues to be 1 run rubber to be competitive, im out for good. I believe I have attended 7 or 8 of the 12 national events , and I like doing them but as I said at some point enough is enough, and I will not come out just to drive around in circles in the E main ( there ya go Katzer open season) If you want to make it the TCS California Nationals and just have locals come thats the perfect way to do it. The TCS is the best and pretty much only one of its kind, and if it falls off because of overindulgence, it would be a shame. Yeah you could say im a bit fired up
It adds up pretty quick. The only thing that kept me going back each year was by staying with a friend. If I did not I probably would have missed more Nationals due to price. If I was in driving distance then it would be a different story. Until some of you guys fly to an annual race annually, price is not a big deal to you. . .

Tires
Regionals - I don't think there is a need to mandate a spec tire or quantity at the regionals. Most tracks I have been to (except Tamiya) you usually can run all weekend on 1 or 2 sets and be competitive.

Nationals - I can see how after every run you would want new tires. Under 06 rules If I made the AAAs we are looking at 7 sets plus sets for practice. I would be in favor to limiting a checked in sets to 3. Everyone would be on the same playing field and tire management and selection would be critical.

Motors
Regionals - I do like the GT1 19t/GT2 27t/GT3 Mabuchi classes. The 19t and 27t are common at most tracks and easy to get. If we went to all Tamiya motors that could hurt the series because you cannot run what is widely available. In the past years there have been shortages just before regionals races, that could happen to motors as well.

Nationals I applaud a motor change because it levels the playing field and lessens the advantage.

Batteries
I did not mind the rules for regionals or Nationals in 06. Yeah the National batteries needed some cycling. Maybe allow us to pick up the Batteries on Thurs and motors on Friday would make things easier, with the same return policy.

Bodies
I did like the rules for no ferrari or nsx for GT2. I would be happy to trickle that down to the regional level. Although with 3 GT classes I wonder if;
GT1 should be any body
GT2 No Ferrari or NSX
GT3 No Ferrari or NSX maybe add no skyline/r34?

Mini
Do we really need 2 classes?
03s were big the 04s were kinda small.
Maybe keep the gearing rules and combine them.

07 Nats Racing
I like the idea of a National Resort for 07. Either by how you do in 07 or maybe number of TCS races you have been in Nationally or to that effect.

My thought for qualifying was have the National resort setup round 1.
Round 1 would be IfMAR with resort after round 1.

If you totally booched Round 1 and were a A-main driver/qualifyer by National Ranking, instead of falling to the F main give that person the bottom of the B main for round 2. After each round you will start according to how you finished in the previous race for all races.

Round 2 - 4 would be heads-up racing with 06 scoring the best 2 of 3 races. Perhaps have a resort for Sunday's round 4.

Triple A Mains, etc. . .

I was thinking of other ways to run the racing but simplicity seemed best.


Past Chumps heads up all the time with Reedy scoring or 06 scoring.

It would be interesting to align with Japan but, really only 3 get to go a year so pushing everyone else through those rules may not be very practical.

Sorry for the novel TCS racing is in my blood. . .
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Old 08-26-2006, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by A-Ko
It adds up pretty quick. The only thing that kept me going back each year was by staying with a friend. If I did not I probably would have missed more Nationals due to price. If I was in driving distance then it would be a different story. Until some of you guys fly to an annual race annually, price is not a big deal to you. . .

Tires
Regionals - I don't think there is a need to mandate a spec tire or quantity at the regionals. Most tracks I have been to (except Tamiya) you usually can run all weekend on 1 or 2 sets and be competitive.

Nationals - I can see how after every run you would want new tires. Under 06 rules If I made the AAAs we are looking at 7 sets plus sets for practice. I would be in favor to limiting a checked in sets to 3. Everyone would be on the same playing field and tire management and selection would be critical.

Motors
Regionals - I do like the GT1 19t/GT2 27t/GT3 Mabuchi classes. The 19t and 27t are common at most tracks and easy to get. If we went to all Tamiya motors that could hurt the series because you cannot run what is widely available. In the past years there have been shortages just before regionals races, that could happen to motors as well.

Nationals I applaud a motor change because it levels the playing field and lessens the advantage.

Batteries
I did not mind the rules for regionals or Nationals in 06. Yeah the National batteries needed some cycling. Maybe allow us to pick up the Batteries on Thurs and motors on Friday would make things easier, with the same return policy.

Bodies
I did like the rules for no ferrari or nsx for GT2. I would be happy to trickle that down to the regional level. Although with 3 GT classes I wonder if;
GT1 should be any body
GT2 No Ferrari or NSX
GT3 No Ferrari or NSX maybe add no skyline/r34?

Mini
Do we really need 2 classes?
03s were big the 04s were kinda small.
Maybe keep the gearing rules and combine them.

07 Nats Racing
I like the idea of a National Resort for 07. Either by how you do in 07 or maybe number of TCS races you have been in Nationally or to that effect.

My thought for qualifying was have the National resort setup round 1.
Round 1 would be IfMAR with resort after round 1.

If you totally booched Round 1 and were a A-main driver/qualifyer by National Ranking, instead of falling to the F main give that person the bottom of the B main for round 2. After each round you will start according to how you finished in the previous race for all races.

Round 2 - 4 would be heads-up racing with 06 scoring the best 2 of 3 races. Perhaps have a resort for Sunday's round 4.

Triple A Mains, etc. . .

I was thinking of other ways to run the racing but simplicity seemed best.


Past Chumps heads up all the time with Reedy scoring or 06 scoring.

It would be interesting to align with Japan but, really only 3 get to go a year so pushing everyone else through those rules may not be very practical.

Sorry for the novel TCS racing is in my blood. . .
i agree with everything that is here but i think that gt2 should be stock for the nats because it was stock for the regionals
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Old 08-26-2006, 09:12 AM
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So I'm sitting here, watching F1 qualifying (gotta love TiVo ) and thinking about TCS qualifying, and then I kinda started thinking if we could incorporate an "F1-Style" qualifying format. What about this....

4 15-Minute qualifying sessions... I know, just stay with me...

3 on Saturday, 1 on Sunday....

In that 15-MInute session, ANYONE in that class may go out and turn laps...

Your top ten laptimes in that session are combined to determine your qualifying position....OR your best cumulative 3-minutes...or 3 consecutive minutes....

No limit on the number of car's on the track at one time...

Battery changes/wrenching on the cars would be legal during the 15 minute period...

If you figure either 3 minutes or 10 laps, you should have 4 real shots at turning in a flying run...

RC Scoring Pro already has a "Practice" program in it. Perhaps Doug could re-write that into something that could be used for this purpose...

I think this could be a very cool and exciting qualifying format. It would take a lot of give and take amongst the drivers, but at the same time it also bring a lot of strategy into the mix too:

Do you go out first in the first qualifier when the track is cool or do you wait for the sun to come out???

How do you time when you go out the best traffic-wise?

Do you go out and run lap after lap after lap and just run for as long as you can or do you stop and make changes?

Motor and Battery changes folks?

I know some have suggested fastest single-lap for qualifiers, but I think something like this would reward consistency more, plus bring back some of the ties to full-scale racing we used to have in TCS. I dunno, it just sounded like a fun idea to me.

For tires, I say 4 sets would be sufficient. 3 sets of B3's, 1 set of A's, you're golden.

Classes for next season:
GT1- Open Modified, any tire, any body, LiPo's legal. This could help reduce costs in some senses by allowing people to run BRUSHLESS!

GT2- 23T Type RR, No Ferrari's, No NSX's, no LiPo

GT3- Black Can's, same body rule as GT2, no Lipo's, I'd like to say un-matched stick packs only, but since someone could just peel off the matcher's stickers, I dunno if that would work. Perhaps a handout battery, but that's a financial cost that Tamiya would have to decide on.

GT-4- New class developed around the F103GT class. Silver Can Motors, any sedan body or the Courage body

Mini- Re-combine M03 and M04

Spec- TT-01's, TL-01 (any variation), TA-01, TA-02, TA-03 chassis- Any sedan body, Silver Can motors, modify exsisting tire rule to allow either 24mm A's or B3's. Tire rule to be announced before the sign-up begins and is at the combined disgression of TA/the host track. By changing the tire rule, you give these starting drivers who need all the help they can get to find grip a hand up instead of handicapping them.
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Old 08-26-2006, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by RCGaryK
So I'm sitting here, watching F1 qualifying (gotta love TiVo ) and thinking about TCS qualifying, and then I kinda started thinking if we could incorporate an "F1-Style" qualifying format. What about this....

4 15-Minute qualifying sessions... I know, just stay with me...

3 on Saturday, 1 on Sunday....

In that 15-MInute session, ANYONE in that class may go out and turn laps...

Your top ten laptimes in that session are combined to determine your qualifying position....OR your best cumulative 3-minutes...or 3 consecutive minutes....

No limit on the number of car's on the track at one time...

Battery changes/wrenching on the cars would be legal during the 15 minute period...

If you figure either 3 minutes or 10 laps, you should have 4 real shots at turning in a flying run...

RC Scoring Pro already has a "Practice" program in it. Perhaps Doug could re-write that into something that could be used for this purpose...

I think this could be a very cool and exciting qualifying format. It would take a lot of give and take amongst the drivers, but at the same time it also bring a lot of strategy into the mix too:

Do you go out first in the first qualifier when the track is cool or do you wait for the sun to come out???

How do you time when you go out the best traffic-wise?

Do you go out and run lap after lap after lap and just run for as long as you can or do you stop and make changes?

Motor and Battery changes folks?

I know some have suggested fastest single-lap for qualifiers, but I think something like this would reward consistency more, plus bring back some of the ties to full-scale racing we used to have in TCS. I dunno, it just sounded like a fun idea to me.

For tires, I say 4 sets would be sufficient. 3 sets of B3's, 1 set of A's, you're golden.

Classes for next season:
GT1- Open Modified, any tire, any body, LiPo's legal. This could help reduce costs in some senses by allowing people to run BRUSHLESS!

GT2- 23T Type RR, No Ferrari's, No NSX's, no LiPo

GT3- Black Can's, same body rule as GT2, no Lipo's, I'd like to say un-matched stick packs only, but since someone could just peel off the matcher's stickers, I dunno if that would work. Perhaps a handout battery, but that's a financial cost that Tamiya would have to decide on.

GT-4- New class developed around the F103GT class. Silver Can Motors, any sedan body or the Courage body

Mini- Re-combine M03 and M04

Spec- TT-01's, TL-01 (any variation), TA-01, TA-02, TA-03 chassis- Any sedan body, Silver Can motors, modify exsisting tire rule to allow either 24mm A's or B3's. Tire rule to be announced before the sign-up begins and is at the combined disgression of TA/the host track. By changing the tire rule, you give these starting drivers who need all the help they can get to find grip a hand up instead of handicapping them.
15 mins of runing time... never heard that before, but change is always good.
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Old 08-26-2006, 09:21 AM
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Oh, and the beauty of the 15-minute session would still be done faster than running 4 5-minute qualifiers. Do the math..

5 minute heat...
Plus 1 minute to complete the heat because of IFMAR qualifiers...
Plus another minute for the drivers to leave the stand and the next heat to get on the stand...
2 minutes between heats...

9 minutes a heat x 4 heats...

36 minutes.

Only concern would be having to tech the cars to get on the track for the flying laps, but that's something you'd have to figure into your strategy. Perhaps have a class staging area near Tech? Or simply do a post-run tech/car impound post qualifying?
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Old 08-26-2006, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by izzyracer
FM, Since when did TCS became so complex? Stay with the basics, keep everything tamiya, spec it to the max and let the driving do the talking. Let it stay for amateurs. You want to mix up pros, manufacturers, owners, make a class for them. Maybe this is one reason why we can't get a win at JP because we get so used to all this tecnicalities we panic when we find out your running a 2400 stick pack at the worlds. Did any of you get the KO Propo DVD for Free?
Thats why my vote is for the 103gt. Spec motor, spec batts, spec tire and insert. Now instead of buying 8 sets of tires I can spend the cash during the Nats sale.

Last edited by tomdav; 08-26-2006 at 07:25 PM.
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Old 08-26-2006, 11:32 AM
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A local club used the F1 qual system as a way to have triple a's without spending all day doing qualifiers. I think we had 10 minutes to put in three fast laps. Worked great and we had more fun running triple A's without spending all day at the track.
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Old 08-26-2006, 12:22 PM
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I think we need a TRUE midwest TCS date for 07...Tamiya used to come to Kansas for at least 5 years, and the Tamiya crowd in this area is growing and growing...please!!!
Originally Posted by FMW
Hello Friends,

I hope you all had fun this year. It's pretty much my goal to make this series as fun and exciting as possible while keeping cost and fairness at a level that is as equitable as we possibly can make it. I tried some things this year and for the most part I think it worked out. I heard about the number of the motor that was tossed. Sadly we didn't keep all the motor records to be able to know for sure who that was. From the records we did find the motor in question did not belong to who you think. The person who shall remain nameless did not have the motor in question as that person's motor records were found. This is not to say that they couldn't of chucked a buddy's motor or something like that.
I really wished I knew of this incident right away and that more witnesses were available. Regardless, we will be keeping an eye out now more than ever about these kinds of behaviors. I have been involved in these incidents before and sometimes with people that I have known for years. I can't say enough how that bums me out to have to step in and become that person I don't like to be.
As far as 07 goes I have a list that I completed that has some things I'd like to impliment or change or even add.
I have been toying around with a TCS national ranking system and in 07 I will use it.
Spec batteries will be back for TCS NAF 07. I think that worked out. I know alot of you had false peak issues when you initially charged them, but it was reported to me that after the second or third charge the battery was good to go.
Spec battery and motor collections will be back.
The body rules will be back. I dug seeing all the different bodies.
Recognition for all the mains will be back. I admit I have neglected the lower mains and this is a bad thing on my part.
I think there is a better and more exciting way to qualify. I know James A. likes IFMAR and I understand why alot of people do. It makes sense. I will say this. It doesn't teach new and even vets how to race. I talked to Doug Hay (my hero) Best Industry scoring program on the planet!!!!!!! He said if I design the qualification system, he can put it in the program. Doug P and I talked during the race and he agrees. There's got to be a better way. Let's just say I have all fall and winter to test my theory.
What do you guys think of a TCS spec 19T and Stock motor for regional races? Now before anyone gets all excited I'm just thinking about it. There are pros and cons and I'm eager to here any comments.
I think a spec tire for GT-1 and GT-2 is a good idea and a limit is good too. I am thinking about this as I have read all your pros and cons on this thread.
Congrats to all the winners and I thank everyone for coming out to play. I have a job that very few people get to say they enjoy and I appreciate all your guys business.
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