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Old 03-24-2019, 06:42 PM
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The only tire that’s legal for mini is the S-grip tire with swift wheel. There was an older grey premount version that Fred has allowed that’s essentially just an older version of the same tire/wheel. No other tires are allowed.

I completely agree on the max weight on euro truck...the added weight was just plain silly. My truck was at 1460 with no weight added and absolutely stock truck with Buggyra. I should’ve added weight because it handles like crap but it is possible.

Also the complete lack of parts was crazy...that’s a huge issue. Typically tracks don’t get TCs races that don’t have a pretty big Tamiya following and have an already large volume of tamiya kits/parts/tires. This was a new one for me...I’ve never seen that before.

As for the motors...I agree the supply was low but they were available last week directly from Reedy and they had plenty. I think the bigger concern there is people getting crazy with gearing...that’s completely on them. That’s always the case with overgearing.



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Old 03-24-2019, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Core Creations View Post
The only tire thatís legal for mini is the S-grip tire with swift wheel. There was an older grey premount version that Fred has allowed thatís essentially just an older version of the same tire/wheel. No other tires are allowed.
If it's legal, it should be in the rules. I have s-grips on grey wheels, and they're ~not~ legal. How can you tell the difference? I should have just run those... because who would have known? It's a PDF, re-publishing isn't exactly expensive. When I last checked, there was a couple different versions of the rules in different formats on the website... But that's ~another~ issue.

I completely agree on the max weight on euro truck...the added weight was just plain silly. My truck was at 1460 with no weight added and absolutely stock truck with Buggyra. I shouldíve added weight because it handles like crap but it is possible.
There was a guy with a 120g machined metal plate in his battery slot... Yeah, something ain't right there.

Also the complete lack of parts was crazy...thatís a huge issue. Typically tracks donít get TCs races that donít have a pretty big Tamiya following and have an already large volume of tamiya kits/parts/tires. This was a new one for me...Iíve never seen that before.
Premier facility. And given we got... 50+ drivers and something like 120 cars.. well it was quite the weekend. People had lots of fun. The primary supply of tamiya parts was "someone who had a bunch". Suppliers aren't being nice to small shops, (this includes tamiya supply...).

As for the motors...I agree the supply was low but they were available last week directly from Reedy and they had plenty. I think the bigger concern there is people getting crazy with gearing...thatís completely on them. Thatís always the case with overgearing.
They were sold out ~early~ last week. I ordered mine the moment they showed up on reedy's website, and even ordering ASAP, I still didn't have a motor until sunday. But importantly, none were available at the track. Burning them out... eh. But just a supply at all. We'd been assured by others who've gone to races that motors have ALWAYS Been available. ... well that's now not true. In my eyes, that's a break of trust. There was the suggestion that you could depend on motors being available. Well.. they're not. That's going to take ~years~ to repair the damage on. And will dent the number of signups for races.
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Old 03-25-2019, 04:35 AM
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There also needs to be a ride height spec for euro truck.
And a spring length spec so some one doesn’t squash the springs down to make the right height way lower Then the stock
ride height.
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Old 03-25-2019, 04:44 AM
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The way this is going we might as well run a euro gt style class allowing hop ups like shocks springs and durability items or tune ability parts for those that want to break the bank.
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Old 03-25-2019, 08:08 AM
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Thank you Windy City for a great event
Big thanks to all involved with running the event
What a GREAT facility, Top notch
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Old 03-25-2019, 11:19 AM
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Default TCS Windy City

What a great turnout for a great race at Windy City RC. 62 drivers with 116 entires for the first time the location held a TCS event. I believe that may be the largest number of entries for the series this year.

I'd like to contribute my two cents to the issues mentioned above.

TCS rules have always been an interesting subject. I agree that they could use some tweaking. For example, for Mini, it said white suzuki wheels with S-grips and your choice of hard or super hard Tamiya inserts, yet Fred Medel had clarified in this thread that people could use up their supply of the Tamiya mini premounts as well, as the premounts were exactly the same tire, the same wheel (except for color) and the same insert (the hard Tamiya insert). That clarification should have been promptly made official in the PDF rules. As there were no tires to be had in stock at the event, it was good that the premounts were still OK, I was loaning/giving out my extra pairs so people could run.

Ride height at carpet tracks - that's something that should be in the rules so there is no confusion - track owners need to protect their facility's investment in that carpet.

As for Eurotruck, which turned out to be the largest class with 26 entries, the rules need help. I did not run that class. The class is supposed to be built per the kit bone stock. Given everyone is using the kit supplied motor and ESC, so there should be very limited weight variables without added weight pieces: the difference in body weights between the Fox body and the original bodies, the weight differences of batteries (maybe the biggest potential variable), the weight difference of what one chooses to fill the diffs with, if anything, and the weight differences of servos. 2S batteries generally run from 230 grams (shorties) to 330 grams (8400s), about a 100 gram difference, but since the rules require a rounded stick pack. the pack weight probably isn't even that much. Tamiya rules that try to leave it to the judgment of the volunteer tech people as to what is weight added for "balancing" versus what is added for "ballast" and illegal are weigh to loose and subject to arguments, and arguments are the last thing we need in a fun race TCS event. Tech didn't have a 4-corner scale system available to test out the claim that the aforementioned 125gr weight under the battery was there to "balance out" the chassis electronics side. For the ease of the tech people, I'd suggest that Tamiya establish the Eurotruck rule as a Weight minimum of XX (set at the weight of the typical built to instructions kit with the heaviest body + the weight of typical off the shelf cheap $29 rounded stick pack (in keeping with the intended low cost of this class) and a Weight maximum of YY (the weight of a completed chassis with motor, esc, + something like 330 grams for the heaviest of the batteries out there (again, in keeping with the intended low cost of the class - use the batteries you already have, which might be an 8400mah). Pull from the rules the subject to debate language distinguishing "balancing from ballast weight". As for wheels, running front wheels is the back should be easy, that's not "built per the instruction manual". To prevent alteration of parts without tech having to get out a caliper and measure something like a shock spring (which if put in a vice and compressed for a long time can be shrunken, and ride height in that class can be critical), maybe emphasize in the rules shocks springs must be xx mm in length, and a minimum ride height specific to that class.

It may not be logistically easy for Tamiya to pull off, but I agree that it sure would be nice if Tamiya could arrange for a traveling box of "typical" replacement parts and consumables (like tires) circulate through the TCS event locations. The host location can sell out of that box, and pay Tamiya for what they sell. The box gets shipped back to Tamiya to be restocked and sent out to the next race location. Such a system would have a couple of advantages:1) a relative assurance that parts will be available at an event, and 2) an assurance that the host location won't get stuck with excess inventory of parts that end up "Celebrating a birthday" at the host location. But that traveling box concept requires some extra work by both Tamiya and the host locations in shipping and tallying inventory. But a display of lots of Tamiya parts would be a good thing, and clearly one reason for having TCS events is to promote TAMIYA products.

The Reedy motor availability situation is a problem. I was pulling my hair out trying to make sure I would have a 21.5 to race at Omaha, and Hobbyplex ended up having motors arrive just in time and in more than sufficient quantity for that race. And I was surprised to see that while Reedy motors popped back into stock at Associated and online locations just after the Omaha race, they popped right back into out of stock status within mere days. Thankfully, I don't think the WCRC event had anyone smoke a motor, but it was still a problem of having racers assured of at least one motor to run their class before traveling to the the event.

I do think having a single allowed motoring a class is a positive for the TCS series, SO LONG AS THEY ARE READILY AVAILABLE. If the manufacturer can't give a reasonable continuing assurance that motors will be available, then maybe that's not the right manufacturer, or maybe (and I don't like this second choice) the rules need to provide for a second allowable motor that is of very similar performance/price characteristics. The fixed timing motor option seems to have caught on at tracks, and the tracks running the fixed timing motors seem to be finding that the Reedy and the Hobbywing motors are performance equivalent, their pricing is the same, and those tracks allow a class to have either motor variety. I've been doing TCS racing since 1995, have attend many regionals and nationals, and I just don't seem to recall having the great situation we had at WCRC in terms of motor power equivalency. You didn't see one car having a clear power advantage over the field. That was borne out by the numbers in the qualifying in GT1, for example, where the top 5 drivers, after 3 rounds of qualifying, had a separation of a mere 1.2 secs in total between 1st and 5th qualifiers (27 laps, 5:09.3 to 27 laps, 5:10.5). I don't ever recall that close of a qualifying in the big motor class.

David Weir



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Old 03-25-2019, 12:54 PM
  #21892  
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Good points David...I'll just say two things about the motors and the rules.

As far as motors, racers and the host tracks need to understand that they can not make changes last minute to any rules without Fred's OK. Any and all variances need to be made 100% clear far in advance of race week. You can't on practice day before the event decide to include a second option for motors. I've heard several say the performance is very close between the HW and Reedy and I've heard just as much or more that the HW is hardier and has a slight advantage overall. Now we all know in spec racing even a tiny advantage can have a huge effect. Plus now the racers that were proactive and prepared and had motors are now potentially at a disadvantage for following the rules and being prepared. I have never waited hoping the host shop would have what I needed to race. I would simply pick another class and not chance it. We drove 10 hours to be told that the motors we left at home (old spec M3 21.5) that would absolutely be faster even with the timing turned down, would be allowed in mini if you didn't get a legal Reedy FT motor. It may be crass to say, but sometimes things don't always go your way...if you didn't get a motor then you aren't going to be able to race. Those that were prepared and have the legal motors should never be penalized for following the rules. I get trying everything to get maximum numbers to show the "big turnout"...but that can't be at the detriment to the series.

As far as the rules...the only real issue was everything euro truck and gluing tread. Otherwise tech was pretty straight forward. The euro truck class has been turned into a cluster F and the inability to stick to the concept of "box stock", "build per instructions" and "no ballast" has ruined the class. A max weight would fix a lot of it as well as actually making the trucks be built per instructions...no oils, grease, lube, clay etc...built exactly like the manual says with zero deviation. Otherwise it will never end and the class will eventually die off as those that push every possible grey area and role the dice on getting away with things with tech will kill it.

I'm sure my point of view will rub some folks the wrong way, but I say what I feel will keep the series integrity not what won't hurt feewings.

For those thinking about Nats...you need to read and re-read the rules as all these shenanigans will not make it through the Tamiya tech...these guys are good!
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Old 03-25-2019, 01:40 PM
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Are they allowing the grey swift wheels at the race?

Also tamiya name brand hop ups only on the cars?
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Old 03-25-2019, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Core Creations View Post
Good points David...I'll just say two things about the motors and the rules.

As far as motors, racers and the host tracks need to understand that they can not make changes last minute to any rules without Fred's OK. Any and all variances need to be made 100% clear far in advance of race week. You can't on practice day before the event decide to include a second option for motors. I've heard several say the performance is very close between the HW and Reedy and I've heard just as much or more that the HW is hardier and has a slight advantage overall. Now we all know in spec racing even a tiny advantage can have a huge effect. Plus now the racers that were proactive and prepared and had motors are now potentially at a disadvantage for following the rules and being prepared. I have never waited hoping the host shop would have what I needed to race. I would simply pick another class and not chance it. We drove 10 hours to be told that the motors we left at home (old spec M3 21.5) that would absolutely be faster even with the timing turned down, would be allowed in mini if you didn't get a legal Reedy FT motor. It may be crass to say, but sometimes things don't always go your way...if you didn't get a motor then you aren't going to be able to race. Those that were prepared and have the legal motors should never be penalized for following the rules. I get trying everything to get maximum numbers to show the "big turnout"...but that can't be at the detriment to the series.

As far as the rules...the only real issue was everything euro truck and gluing tread. Otherwise tech was pretty straight forward. The euro truck class has been turned into a cluster F and the inability to stick to the concept of "box stock", "build per instructions" and "no ballast" has ruined the class. A max weight would fix a lot of it as well as actually making the trucks be built per instructions...no oils, grease, lube, clay etc...built exactly like the manual says with zero deviation. Otherwise it will never end and the class will eventually die off as those that push every possible grey area and role the dice on getting away with things with tech will kill it.

I'm sure my point of view will rub some folks the wrong way, but I say what I feel will keep the series integrity not what won't hurt feewings.

For those thinking about Nats...you need to read and re-read the rules as all these shenanigans will not make it through the Tamiya tech...these guys are good!
If Tamiya is going to require a certain motor then they have to be sure there is more than enough supply to meet the the demand. This is not a new problem. There should be an alternative motor such as the Hobbywing. To allow a motor that has adjustable timing is wrong. But, at the same time there are people who decide to participate at the last minute for a variety of reasons. There should be an adequate supply. I agree with your comments on about the Euro Truck Class. Although, gluing the sidewalls makes the vehicle more drivable on black carpet and has been done in other classes for a long time. The other things take away from the original intent. Racers push the envelope, but it's unnecessary in this class. When the truck first came out and people were racing it basically box stock there was a lot of laughing. and kidding on the drivers stand and people just had a good time. That's not the case any more.
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Old 03-25-2019, 08:27 PM
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Default Reedy 21.5 FT back in stock at Team Associated

And of course, Reedy FT 21.5's are back in stock at Team Associated.
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Old 03-26-2019, 08:04 PM
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Hello everyone,

Thank you all for the continued support of the TCS series. While we never profess to be perfect, we strive to make it the best series for hobbyists. I hope the racers enjoyed Windy City. It's a great facility and a fun group. With that said, I want to make everyone aware of two addendums I have made to the rules. It's posted on our website in the PDF and the HTML page. TCS Rules page

I have removed the Minimum weight rule to the EURO TRUCK class. My intention to prevent something I saw at IIC a couple of years ago did not pan out. The new weight rule reads:

12. No Minimum or Maximum Weight: No weights of ANY KIND may be put on the truck for ballast.

This is a BOX Stock Class. The minimum weight made racers get too creative in playing with the tuning of the truck. Build the car per the manual with the parts supplied. It's that simple.

I have expanded the General Rules to expand on the illegality of modifying both stock and option parts. I'm talking to the Euro Truck Characters who are shortening the stock truck springs to lower the Euro Trucks. The general rule reads:

4. It is strictly forbidden to re-engineer or modify the car in any way other than with Tamiya Hop-Ups or kit supplied accessories. (this rule already in document)

5. It is strictly forbidden to re-engineer or modify Stock or Hop-Up-Options parts. (this rule added to document)
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Last edited by FMW; 03-27-2019 at 09:15 AM. Reason: clarification
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Old 03-26-2019, 09:47 PM
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so were the A main Eurotrucks legit builds?
did they get by with glue on sidewalls only?
were there motors hitting the 23,000 rpm limit? if so, impressive.
and lube on the shocks and in the diffs is legal per the rules, right?
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Old 03-26-2019, 10:06 PM
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First off, Fred, you're doing a good job, at least with running the race, and the rules package. Any of these arguments are in the edges, in the weeds, and not huge deals. It's supposed to be fun, rather than a serious thing.

Motors were a problem. I'd love to hear something about that. An excuse? I dunno.

Shop parts support... didn't look good. I had the proper compound tires, and wheels, but it was only through good planning I was able to have the right tires for my mini. "You can't race without these parts" should be available on site. Also, parts for the euro trucks were in short supply.

You're gonna have some arguments with the rules lawyers. People will talk about "weights for balance" versus "weights for ballast". Why did you go with the no weights at all, instead of a maximum weight? I'm not exactly concerned about removing the 10g I have next to my battery. But the "other result" of that rule, could be the search for heavy batteries, putting balast inside stick packs (there's a lot of room..) Or light batteries (as the case may be) finding plastic case shorty servos, and a wide variety of other potential weights gaming. Or going the other way, full size metal servos, and getting sloppy on solder joints.

... now i'm wondering if anyone's swapped out the FET's on the ESC for lower on resistance. .... oh digikey.....

Did anyone get torn down? I was enjoying my time with other drivers, so I wasn't watching tech.
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Old 03-26-2019, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by F N CUDA View Post
so were the A main Eurotrucks legit builds?
did they get by with glue on sidewalls only?
were there motors hitting the 23,000 rpm limit? if so, impressive.
and lube on the shocks and in the diffs is legal per the rules, right?
The truck I was responsible for, came in 6th in the main. It was glued on sidewalls only. Motor was brand new, taken out of the box, friday night at 10pm. The motor was un-tested. The truck had 4 bushings in it, as I didn't have a full bearing set. By the time it got to the mains, it had 40k in the dampers, 1m in the front diff, and 200k in the rear diff. And no ballast at all.

So.. "at least one" truck in the A main was a legit build. :-) And it did it with some bushings in the drivetrain!
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Old 03-27-2019, 02:28 AM
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I would like to see no gluing of sidewalls on euro truck
and a ride height spec.
I had a great time
Thanks
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