Go Back  R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Racing Forum
Tamiya Championship Series >

Tamiya Championship Series

Like Tree832Likes

Tamiya Championship Series

Old 12-09-2013, 08:29 AM
  #18511  
Tech Master
iTrader: (94)
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,422
Trader Rating: 94 (100%+)
Default


Last edited by Markus; 12-13-2013 at 09:07 AM.
Markus is offline  
Old 12-09-2013, 09:57 AM
  #18512  
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Kaohsiung City, Taiwan
Posts: 1,570
Default

Originally Posted by robk
If cost is the biggest issue then let silver cans run with bl as anybody who just wants to run inexpensively is going to get blown out by tuned up 540s as badly as bl motors.
Like your thinking.

I'm ok with the rule changes, I assume it has been in the works for some time?

However, I also believe it is time for Tamiya to start designing mini's with more adjustable gearing, like the TA05 M Four I posted previously.
JiuHaWong is offline  
Old 12-09-2013, 10:20 AM
  #18513  
Tech Master
iTrader: (65)
 
billjacobs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Rockville, MD
Posts: 1,415
Trader Rating: 65 (100%+)
Default mini

I have participated in Tamiya TCS for over a decade. Mini is almost always the biggest class by far, and usually has the most diverse racers (novice to champions.)

The constant rule changes seem to be a reaction to the direction of the wind and need to stop. We went from open silver can (4-hole, 2-hole, etc,) to 2 hole only, then to rpm limits, then to premount tires, and now to brushless. Almost all of the mini's that do well are fully hopped up, costing at least $300 + electronics. (I am not even talking about the silver can tuning, etc that went on, pushing mini racing to $500+.)

If mini is expected to revive TCS racing, either make it box stock, or make it more open. The more consumable restrictions you put in place (premount tires, etc,) the more money everything costs to compete (unless it is 100% box stock.)

As for motors, a 21.5 is rated at about 2,100kv. At 7.2v, that is 15,120rpm. The last rpm limit on silver can motors was 18,750 at 7.2v. This is not even close. You can of course advance the timing to 55', and get it to closer, but a broken in silver can is still faster. I would suggest going to a fixed timing 17.5 which will be close to a silver can and present less issues

I will continue to participate in TCS races, but with all of the annual rule changes, it is getting more expensive for what is supposed to be a fun class.

Last edited by billjacobs; 12-09-2013 at 10:59 AM.
billjacobs is offline  
Old 12-09-2013, 10:28 AM
  #18514  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (32)
 
Carl Giordano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Upper Saddle River, NJ
Posts: 2,514
Trader Rating: 32 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by Markus
I played around with my 21.5 bl mini this past weekend at my local track MRH. Small, indoor, med grip carpet. close to 1/2 the size of TQ racing in CA.
I used a Novak Ballistic, Tekin Pro (lockdown blinky), M05 silver spec 225 length, 20 tooth pinion, old hard s-grips. the usual TCS trim money setup (with a 18,500 silver can).
The car was so slow... our normal mini racer group with silvercans would have blew me out of the water!
No problem, I've got timing and brushless to the rescue...
I cranked the timing to max. the temp was fine (maybe 100 degrees?) but the car was only starting to be fast at the end of the straight which btw is not good (because of the added timing). maybe I'd need a 16 tooth pinion but I can't see that would be enough to keep up with our local group.
I'm sure big tracks would be different.
planning to make the first TCS race at MadRiverHobbies come January 19th... now all you need is a high torque rotor and cracked timing. Thanks for the feedback and guess i need to get down there early for some track testing.

Based on the feedback recently provided by a few members of RCTech I'm curious if Tamiya will augment the rules for Mini. Some suggestions are as follows:

- do nothing and deal with it and hope there is a long term benefit
- allow 21.5 brushless and silver cans (with 18,750 limit) to run together
- TCS to select a spec motor / speedo combo with a low cost budget in mind
- eventually come out with a Tamiya brand brushless system which makes its way into kits for RTR purposes

I'm going to try and remain optimistic and assume 2014 shall be test year that hopefully leads to a level playing field for all. I just can't help remembering how PO'd I was being a devoted Reedy 17.5 user and racing against those who were using a 17.5 Trinity D3.5.
Carl Giordano is offline  
Old 12-09-2013, 11:08 AM
  #18515  
Tech Champion
iTrader: (110)
 
Core Creations's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Back in the booth
Posts: 6,300
Trader Rating: 110 (100%+)
Default

Id be ok running 21.5 and rpm limited silver cans together...racers choice.
Thats whats allowed in GT3.

Rollouts between GT3 and mini running 21.5 are worlds apart...GT3 will be in the 50-60+mm and mini is in the 32mm area...thats a LOT!!
Core Creations is offline  
Old 12-09-2013, 11:22 AM
  #18516  
MD
Tech Champion
iTrader: (136)
 
MD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Illinois
Posts: 5,723
Trader Rating: 136 (100%+)
Default

If I want to get involved in the TCS, I can buy a mini kit for about $120 with an esc and motor and I can race. If it goes 21.5, I will have to spend more money on an esc and motor no matter what brand is legal.
MD is offline  
Old 12-09-2013, 11:23 AM
  #18517  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (22)
 
CraigMBA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Valley of the Dirt, CA
Posts: 2,838
Trader Rating: 22 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by Carl Giordano

- TCS to select a spec motor / speedo combo with a low cost budget in mind
- eventually come out with a Tamiya brand brushless system which makes its way into kits for RTR purposes
This (either one).
CraigMBA is offline  
Old 12-09-2013, 12:40 PM
  #18518  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (32)
 
Carl Giordano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Upper Saddle River, NJ
Posts: 2,514
Trader Rating: 32 (100%+)
Default

Question: Since the MadRiverHobby race is quickly approaching (January 19th) Does the track have a "final" say if TCS mini rules are going to be closely followed? It would be helpful if someone watching this message board and local to MRH inquiry for out of town travelers. I'd hate to spend money and make changes to a chassis to learn the house is making certain concessions. I remember one year traveling to VA and learning red dot motors were allowed.. at least all i had to purchase was a new motor.
Carl Giordano is offline  
Old 12-09-2013, 01:00 PM
  #18519  
Tech Initiate
 
Shane Parker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Perry, GA
Posts: 42
Default

Ok let’s see, if the average Johnson motors runs around 16,500 to 17,500 rpms at 7.2v. So, we would need a 21.5 brushless motor to be the same if we want the speeds to stay the same. Right… I am not a mathematician but I believe the formula to convert Kv to rpm is Kv x volts = rpms. So, a Trinity Monster Horsepower D3 21.5T ROAR Spec (example motor) Kv is 2000, therefore 2000Kv x 7.2= 14,400. Well that seems much slower than a Johnson motor at 7.2v. Not surprising since brushless motors are known for having more torque instead of high rpms. That is why you gear down.

I have never driven a 21.5 brushless motor in a mini so, this is all an assumption. I assume Tamiya has done R&D on the situation and compared 2013 finals lap times with a mini with a 21.5 brushless motor and found them to be similar.

I do not like the new rule for one reason. I assume this year at the Finals you can bring you're on 21.5 motor. This will make it harder to police motors. In the past, Tamiya provided your motor. This keeps the field level. Brushless motors work in other classes because you can adjust the final gear. Let’s face it you have one choice in mini and it is to use the 20t pinion gear. So it is down to motor, driver skill and familiarity to the track if you want to be competitive.
Shane Parker is offline  
Old 12-09-2013, 01:09 PM
  #18520  
Tech Adept
 
Morbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 171
Default

Just Do It
Morbo is offline  
Old 12-09-2013, 01:13 PM
  #18521  
Tech Initiate
 
Shane Parker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Perry, GA
Posts: 42
Default

Originally Posted by Morbo
Just Do It
Is this a advertisement for Nike?
Shane Parker is offline  
Old 12-09-2013, 02:10 PM
  #18522  
Tech Regular
iTrader: (8)
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Valencia, CA
Posts: 376
Trader Rating: 8 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by Shane Parker
Ok let’s see, if the average Johnson motors runs around 16,500 to 17,500 rpms at 7.2v. So, we would need a 21.5 brushless motor to be the same if we want the speeds to stay the same. Right… I am not a mathematician but I believe the formula to convert Kv to rpm is Kv x volts = rpms. So, a Trinity Monster Horsepower D3 21.5T ROAR Spec (example motor) Kv is 2000, therefore 2000Kv x 7.2= 14,400. Well that seems much slower than a Johnson motor at 7.2v. Not surprising since brushless motors are known for having more torque instead of high rpms. That is why you gear down.

I have never driven a 21.5 brushless motor in a mini so, this is all an assumption. I assume Tamiya has done R&D on the situation and compared 2013 finals lap times with a mini with a 21.5 brushless motor and found them to be similar.

I do not like the new rule for one reason. I assume this year at the Finals you can bring you're on 21.5 motor. This will make it harder to police motors. In the past, Tamiya provided your motor. This keeps the field level. Brushless motors work in other classes because you can adjust the final gear. Let’s face it you have one choice in mini and it is to use the 20t pinion gear. So it is down to motor, driver skill and familiarity to the track if you want to be competitive.
If this rule change will slow you down and make me catch up to you then I'm all for it. LOL How are you brother

Danny R
fx35rc is offline  
Old 12-09-2013, 02:51 PM
  #18523  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (61)
 
SMcD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2,090
Trader Rating: 61 (100%+)
Default

Increasing the mechanical timing of the motor increases top speed (RPM) at the expense of torque. You guys get that, right?

Oh, we played this game on the mini thread --> Who here running mini class has less than $300 in their car not including electronics?
SMcD is offline  
Old 12-09-2013, 03:23 PM
  #18524  
Tech Master
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: West of Crook County Illinois
Posts: 1,979
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

There is no easy answer to rule changes. I don't see mini as a big draw unless you go to Tamiya races. Usually on a club level it gets momentum, then disappears. Then after a hosted Tamiya race it gets some momentum, followed by a disappearing act. Maybe in SoCal it is different.

What if these mini changes effect that, better that?

There will never be a "perfect" motor/esc system that people will be happy with. Racers will always find a way to take said motor/esc/battery and find an advantage.
A-Ko is offline  
Old 12-09-2013, 03:47 PM
  #18525  
Tech Initiate
 
Shane Parker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Perry, GA
Posts: 42
Default

Originally Posted by A-Ko
There is no easy answer to rule changes. I don't see mini as a big draw unless you go to Tamiya races. Usually on a club level it gets momentum, then disappears. Then after a hosted Tamiya race it gets some momentum, followed by a disappearing act. Maybe in SoCal it is different.

What if these mini changes effect that, better that?

There will never be a "perfect" motor/esc system that people will be happy with. Racers will always find a way to take said motor/esc/battery and find an advantage.
Great point!!! That happened in Alabama after the regional race. I do not think going to brushless will make people attend more mini races. It will add to the cost for the novice driver. To be competitive in the mini class you need oil filled shock and ball bearing. Now you are add at least $100 for a brushless system that has to be ROAR approved.
Shane Parker is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Your Privacy Choices -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.