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Old 12-08-2013, 11:59 AM
  #18496  
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I am so glad they are going to brushless for minis. Me and my brother have been racing for 20 plus years and racing minis for the past 3 plus and with the silver cans there was such a big difference. We could have two run the same rpm and be half a second different a lap on the track. Not to mention all the voodo u had to get these motors run. Just to compete we ran motors that sometimes we did not know if they were going to be over. Now there is no need to buy 10 motors for that special one. I can say that in 17.5 tc racing I was never beat buy a better motor but in mini that was the norm.
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Old 12-08-2013, 01:36 PM
  #18497  
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A "tuned" 21.5 is no different than buying a "red dot" silver can motor.

I'm glad Tamiya is changing to brushless. Just wish they'd update the cars to reflect those who want to race them.

Cuda is right, you can easily get slightly used ESC's and Motors if you take a few minutes to look. For those who want new:

http://www.amainhobbies.com/product_...e-Sensored-ESC

http://www.amainhobbies.com/product_...ess-Motor-215R

$110 total to update your machine. That's almost as much as a mylaps transponder!
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Old 12-08-2013, 02:06 PM
  #18498  
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Originally Posted by JiuHaWong
A "tuned" 21.5 is no different than buying a "red dot" silver can motor.

I'm glad Tamiya is changing to brushless. Just wish they'd update the cars to reflect those who want to race them.

$110 total to update your machine. That's almost as much as a mylaps transponder!
Sorry, dont take my responding to your quote As confrontational but couldn't disagree with you anymore. TCS racing in the US thrives because of the RPM. Using a highly tuned RedDot is useless at a TCS race. There does not appear to be ant restrictions with the brushless motors, in fact you're allowed to tune the motor using different Rotors ( albeit must use the same manufacturer).

The motor limit is the equalizer! Trust me, this from someone who's motor teched after a race t 18,830 and gladly accepted a disqualification.

All I'm suggesting from Fred is to consider an addendum to the motor / speedo ruler that encourages a resonable spec type format at a reasonable budget.
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Old 12-08-2013, 02:25 PM
  #18499  
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Originally Posted by BrowniesHobbies
First I want to say that I aplaude Tamiya in thier efforts to keep their product and racing programs on the forfront of our industry. Also want to thank Fred and all the behind the scenes personel that work so hard to keep the TCS racing program running. I know it's not easy to do.

I'm just sitting here shaking my head with what I'm reading. I've been promoting Mini or M-chassis for all of the 20 plus years of TCS and always made this class grow. As a hobby shop owner and race promoter I don't know what I'm going to tell all my customers/racers to do. Many of these guys have just purchased thier equipment and have made a few of the TCS races, some with great success and some not so much. Still having fun. Somehow I'm going to have to find a way to get these guys to continue racing.

We saw a drop last year in VTA when we finally started to enforce the 25.5 rule! I waited 2 years plus to change our rules. Many of the same guys run these two classes and now to run in the TCS regionals they will have to purchase a brushless esc and motor to continue running another class that they love. We're not just talking about a guy here or there. Some father and son teams will have two of each to buy!

I know that Tamiya is just trying to make better races and racers. Is it perfect with the silver can motors? No. Too many guys have figured out how to "cheat". So we enforce an rpm rule. This seems to work as long as the venue has a dyno and uses it. I myself don't even break my motors in anymore because the newer 540J motors are so good. I also encourage my guys not to as well. Whether they listen to me or not is another story. I will tell you at our last two TCS races I had to tell more then a couple of guys that they could'nt use a motor that was above the rpm limit.

Will it be better with brushless? I think where you have competition you will always have someone who figures out how to "cheat" or bend the rules. I couldn't feel good about myself if that's how I won a race. I guess we will have to wait and see what becomes of our beloved M-chassis A.K.A. MINI.
John is a great ambassador in promoting TCS for his customers and making certain everyone is playing by the rules. It the reason why i specifically attend his events. Some racers will push their equipment to the limit and the problem is inbrushless the limits are more broader than silver can. In silver can the only variable is the motor but at least there is a safety net to catch someone with an RPM limit. The way the brushless rules are written, there are too many limits to play with. It not cheating in brushless to spend a small fortune for the best motor and speedo to have the best equipment. This is how the Mini class will be damaged

I'll be the first to admit i push everything to the limit, but I'm advocating that Tamiya helps to minimize the variables prior to the start of 2014 season. I hope others agree with me and voice the same concern. I'll be the first to applaude a spec speedo/ motor combo...otherwise it's all in for me.
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Old 12-08-2013, 02:31 PM
  #18500  
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Originally Posted by Carl Giordano
Sorry, dont take my responding to your quote As confrontational but couldn't disagree with you anymore. TCS racing in the US thrives because of the RPM. Using a highly tuned RedDot is useless at a TCS race. There does not appear to be ant restrictions with the brushless motors, in fact you're allowed to tune the motor using different Rotors ( albeit must use the same manufacturer).

The motor limit is the equalizer! Trust me, this from someone who's motor teched after a race t 18,830 and gladly accepted a disqualification.

All I'm suggesting from Fred is to consider an addendum to the motor / speedo ruler that encourages a resonable spec type format at a reasonable budget.
Not confrontational at all! I enjoy a good conversation... I recall the guy who does the "red dot" motors making TCS-specific motors (RPM limited). He also had ones that exceeded the TCS spec.

My post was more to point out that you can get "tuned" of either motor type.

My hope is that Tamiya contracts with Speed Passion or Hobbywing to produce non timing (on the motor or ESC), TCS-specific combo's that have tamiya-branding. That should level the playing field and if the price is right, easy on the racers.
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Old 12-08-2013, 03:14 PM
  #18501  
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As one previous person wrote, the mini class is the only class where a non-novice can go out buy a car with a speed control and motor and run the TCS race. I have heard all the arguments for brushless and those against silver cans.There is just as much doctoring of the brushless motors as with the silver cans.It will eliminate a lot of people who might consider participating. If they want to make it mostly for the hard core racers then 21'5 will be what is chosen.
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Old 12-08-2013, 03:35 PM
  #18502  
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Fred does write "interesting" rules at times, but he eventually gets it right. This next season for TCS Mini racing is going to be difficult and expensive. For those who believe that the conversion to 21.5 B/L motors is going to "level" the playing field are in for a rude awakening.

I'm an old hand with Silvercans, but a newcomer to B/L technology. However, I'm a quick study. My initial research tells me that there are over a dozen motor manufacturers, with some that have more than one model of 21.5 motors. There are variations in the amount of maximum advance markings on the cans. Then there are the tuning rotors where again a manufacturer may have several different specifications. If you don't have the "right" motor, you will be down on speed.

I've established a set of parameters that have narrowed my search to 4 or 5 manufacturers motors. Then there are the tuning rotors to consider. Not all 21.5 motors have the same "speed". Unfortunately, you have to put them in the car to find out. Fortunately, the esc I think is the best for my purposes was the first one purchased.

I was happy with the rules before, but understand the reasons behind changing them.
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Old 12-08-2013, 03:57 PM
  #18503  
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I have been racing brushless since 2008 w the southwest tour guys. Forgive me, but I've heard this argument before. IMO this is not going to be a big deal after the first race. I'm not sure it's a big deal now.

In oval, you kept the throttle wide open from the tone to tone. In a mini? Nah.
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Old 12-08-2013, 05:20 PM
  #18504  
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My opinion is that the current rpm rules has made for the best, closest racing in mini for years. When we ran mini pro a couple years ago there was a larger gap between racers. On carpet the brushless was downright "not fun" to race. In f1 it's pretty different as f1 can adjust gearing as needed. Last year in mini in Omaha I think there was maybe 2 seconds between the top 5 or 6 in mini during qualifying. And anymore most racers are plenty willing to help others get there silver cans up to snuff, which takes vey little to do.

I'm hoping we can figure it out either way. I'd like to think the Tekin Spec could be used as it's super smoothness might help in mini.
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Old 12-08-2013, 08:45 PM
  #18505  
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Jethroz - never meet you and probably never will but I am 100% in agreement with everything you have said on the brushless vs. silver can change. I think the key word that is causing the biggest issue from the mini die hards is one word... "change". Look who are the regulars who are always at the top of the mini A mains. Guys with at least 2-3 minis who have run the same M03 or M05 chassis for the last 5 to ten years with the same esc so they have come up with the best settings and know how to massage silver cans or who to buy them from to get the most (dare one say "advantage") out of them. For 2014, the people that can figure out how to set-up their esc to the motor they are running for optimum performance and adjust the set-up to a heavier front end will do well. Oh yeah, and maybe even driver skill might still be a factor ? All you keep hearing is "wanting to run an inexpensive class and have fun". The part people are leaving off is "have fun = winning". If it really is about "just having fun", why can't a person have fun in the C or D main ?

All the talk about "voodoo" with brushless esc's and motors is just that, talk. Same sky is falling doomsday talk when brushless was added to the TCS sedan classes and turns out people are running different brand esc's and motor's and getting similar performance. Usually what turns out to be the difference in the end is set-up, preparation and driver skill. Best I can remember, it was usually a better driver that beats me, not a better motor. And every brushless motor I have raced have lasted at least a year or more. Well, except for the one I learned that "max timing" is not always faster. It was ballistic until the smoke came out.

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Old 12-08-2013, 09:50 PM
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As I said previously, the key thing for me is that if I want to race TCS and I am not a novice I can buy a mini kit which includes a silver can and an esc cheaply and race. There is no other class like that. If want to a it strictly hard core racer series then that's ok, but you won't get as many new racers. That's ok for some people. I think it was 2007 in Memphis there were around 50 minis. People had a lot of fun. What kind of series do the people making decisions want? Some people like an exclusive club.
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Old 12-08-2013, 10:15 PM
  #18507  
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Originally Posted by Kevin CBR
Jethroz - never meet you and probably never will but I am 100% in agreement with everything you have said on the brushless vs. silver can change. I think the key word that is causing the biggest issue from the mini die hards is one word... "change". Look who are the regulars who are always at the top of the mini A mains. Guys with at least 2-3 minis who have run the same M03 or M05 chassis for the last 5 to ten years with the same esc so they have come up with the best settings and know how to massage silver cans or who to buy them from to get the most (dare one say "advantage") out of them. For 2014, the people that can figure out how to set-up their esc to the motor they are running for optimum performance and adjust the set-up to a heavier front end will do well. Oh yeah, and maybe even driver skill might still be a factor ? All you keep hearing is "wanting to run an inexpensive class and have fun". The part people are leaving off is "have fun = winning". If it really is about "just having fun", why can't a person have fun in the C or D main ?

All the talk about "voodoo" with brushless esc's and motors is just that, talk. Same sky is falling doomsday talk when brushless was added to the TCS sedan classes and turns out people are running different brand esc's and motor's and getting similar performance. Usually what turns out to be the difference in the end is set-up, preparation and driver skill. Best I can remember, it was usually a better driver that beats me, not a better motor. And every brushless motor I have raced have lasted at least a year or more. Well, except for the one I learned that "max timing" is not always faster. It was ballistic until the smoke came out.

Panda
Kevin, can't argue with your logic, but you may have missed the point I was trying to make. What I was trying to point out was that we were going from relatively stable motor rules where very little "voodoo" was being done to the motors to a situation where the playing field is not level.

I have over $500 invested in this B/L motor stuff. 2 Minis equals 2 escs ($180) 4 B/L motors ($360) so far. That's not including an extra sensor wire and misc plugs and wires. You can talk to me all day about how even the motors are, but lap times will just drown you out. There is nearly a full second difference between the fastest and slowest of the motors in my possession in the same "friggin" car. In fact it may have been over a second. What's interesting is that the slowest motor in my Mini is well thought of by some TC drivers.

I also wasn't opposing the rules change, but was pointing out a few things that some were ignoring in their euphoria. This rules change will initially be frustrating and expensive to those adapting to the change. True, this will all level out as people figure out which motors will work the best. Then Brand X will be the motor next year or month or week or day. I have 15 or 20 year old Silvercans that hit the rpm limit on the button.
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Old 12-09-2013, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by MD
As I said previously, the key thing for me is that if I want to race TCS and I am not a novice I can buy a mini kit which includes a silver can and an esc cheaply and race. There is no other class like that. If want to a it strictly hard core racer series then that's ok, but you won't get as many new racers. That's ok for some people. I think it was 2007 in Memphis there were around 50 minis. People had a lot of fun. What kind of series do the people making decisions want? Some people like an exclusive club.
The only thing that keeps new people from joining in on the FUN of the TCS is all the regulars bitching about Doom And Gloom of the rules. In my 10 plus years of racing in the TCS I have had nothing but fun. I never have the best equipment but I have been i have been in D-mains and A-mains and still have had fun. I talk to other racers at club races and they always say the TCS looks fun but they don't want to do it because all they hear from some of the racers or read online that they will have to spend a ton of money because of the rules. After that they just say forget it. I have been racing at the Trackside and The Track at Harbor Hobby, 2 of the largest attended locations every year they hosted.

The winners of these events have always been and always will be the Drivers that put the most time into their setup, preperation, and driving skills. If you are just a novice or intermediate racer you will never beat those guys no matter how much you spend.

Buy what you want spend a ton or spend a little the only way you will ever have a chance to win is if you invest in yourself and practice, work on your setup, and maintain your car.

We need to try and get new people into this series to keep it growing. It is a fun series and I think it is now even better because of brushless in all the classes. I will now have more time to watch some of the outstanding races throughout the day instead of working on motors all day. Setup tinkering will always need to be done but it is no way as time consuming as always changing a motor.

We all do have to remember these are free events to promote Tamiya Products. I think if Tamiya only allowed their own motors and ESC's turnout would be lower.

So we all need to stop scaring new people away and find ways to bring people in by talking about the fun we all have. After all if we did not have fun how many of would be coming back year after year.
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Old 12-09-2013, 06:22 AM
  #18509  
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Originally Posted by MD
As I said previously, the key thing for me is that if I want to race TCS and I am not a novice I can buy a mini kit which includes a silver can and an esc cheaply and race. There is no other class like that. If want to a it strictly hard core racer series then that's ok, but you won't get as many new racers. That's ok for some people. I think it was 2007 in Memphis there were around 50 minis. People had a lot of fun. What kind of series do the people making decisions want? Some people like an exclusive club.
In 2006 in Memphis there where 75 minis I think it was due to cost also
Hardcore racers will always find a way to be fast. Brush less maybe better
In the long run but the cost will drive some away from racing.
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Old 12-09-2013, 07:57 AM
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If cost is the biggest issue then let silver cans run with bl as anybody who just wants to run inexpensively is going to get blown out by tuned up 540s as badly as bl motors.

As far as the $150 bl motors that's more of an oval thing where .1 of a seco d is couple laps at the end. You have about 2-3x the number of opportunities (i.e. corners) to lose your small horsepower advantage on a roadcourse. If you think it will help you, you need to be putting in spotless perfect runs since the advantage is not that big if its any help at all.
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