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Old 12-07-2013, 08:25 AM
  #18481  
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Has anyone run a 21.5 and compared lap times to a silver can?
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Old 12-07-2013, 09:06 AM
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All this voodoo talk is no different with brushless than it was with silver cans. 99 out of 100 times you are still going to get beat by the person with the most efficient drive-train, setup, and mistake-free driving style. Work on setup, replace those crunchy bearings, balance the tires. Those huge blobs of solder on your esc/motor or the tightly folded excess wire zip tied and stuffed into the recess of your chassis will hurt you more than any brushless motor/esc setup ever will. (seen it, heard the accusations, the rest of the day)

A 2-pole brushless motor has a mechanical limit of physical timing. Anything more than 60* is going to result in major power loss, cogging at low rpm, and likely will burn your motor up. (Killshots at 57*+ anyone?). 55* is pretty much where you want to stop with mechanical timing on the motors unless you like burning $100 bills. Playing with rotors will be no different than the high torque craze in TC, except your now looking at RPM based solutions instead (1/12 scale).

Last edited by Jethroz; 12-16-2013 at 07:25 AM.
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Old 12-07-2013, 09:12 AM
  #18483  
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Originally Posted by Carl Giordano
Has anyone run a 21.5 and compared lap times to a silver can?
Yes. A 21.5 set to the max timing mark, absolutely runs away from a TCS legal Silvercan. There are exceptions to this, cause the 21.5s with the max timing mark set at 40 degrees are no faster and may be slower. Sorry, but this with a small sample of B/L motors. There may be other manufacturers with the max timing at 40 degrees that turn higher revs.

The above comments are for Minis only. Besides, I've been informed that the timing marks on the motors may have no relation to the actual amount of timing. That info was posted on this thread a page or two back.
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Old 12-07-2013, 09:29 AM
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Here's my take on the 21.5 brushless in Mini class.

F1 has just recently been able to use all of a 21.5 motor due to tires actually working on these now.
It is still the perfect motor for that class because up until recently the motor has been just more than we could use but not so much that it makes em stupid fast and out of control.

In a Mini, using a 21.5 with fixed gearing will unarguably be a major motor and fresh battery war.
High amp discharging followed by hi amp charging is what wakes them right up for "stock/slow" motors and is very dangerous, ambient temp rules to catch this are in place. Fred knows, good job.

My argument is to use 17.5 motors as this was tested once at Tamiya Aliso Regionals and in my opinion was nearly equal to how F1 is while using 21.5 motors.
Horsepower is just barely more than we could use and even older motors and batteries were competitive.
I know this because that is what I used with a mediocre setup and average sportsman driving skills to win the 17.5 Mini event.
Some others were also competive with this combination and were actually running less than the maximum gear ratio, ranging from 16 to 20 tooth pinions.
And even others were unnecessarily putting so much timing in their motors anyway that they killed their stuff before figuring out we had just more than was usable.

I vote 17.5 again and no more messing around with buying motors, rotors, batteries, discharging and charging hazards etc.

Cannot think of a single argument besides we may use an extra set of tires, maybe, however I came home with my original set after racing was over that was still in very good condition. I did use 1 extra set just for practicing after I had the race set broken in and set aside for race day.
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Old 12-07-2013, 10:02 AM
  #18485  
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Perhaps tamiya should stop making fixed gear cars? If they can make this:



which has adjustable gearing; then they can certainly make the adjustable gearing an option on their M07 chassis.

As for the motor wars, TBH, you can get a pretty nice 21.5 from a few of the motor tuners that will get you the speed you need.
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Old 12-07-2013, 01:20 PM
  #18486  
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Originally Posted by F N CUDA
Here's my take on the 21.5 brushless in Mini class.

F1 has just recently been able to use all of a 21.5 motor due to tires actually working on these now.
It is still the perfect motor for that class because up until recently the motor has been just more than we could use but not so much that it makes em stupid fast and out of control.

In a Mini, using a 21.5 with fixed gearing will unarguably be a major motor and fresh battery war.
High amp discharging followed by hi amp charging is what wakes them right up for "stock/slow" motors and is very dangerous, ambient temp rules to catch this are in place. Fred knows, good job.

My argument is to use 17.5 motors as this was tested once at Tamiya Aliso Regionals and in my opinion was nearly equal to how F1 is while using 21.5 motors.
Horsepower is just barely more than we could use and even older motors and batteries were competitive.
I know this because that is what I used with a mediocre setup and average sportsman driving skills to win the 17.5 Mini event.
Some others were also competive with this combination and were actually running less than the maximum gear ratio, ranging from 16 to 20 tooth pinions.
And even others were unnecessarily putting so much timing in their motors anyway that they killed their stuff before figuring out we had just more than was usable.

I vote 17.5 again and no more messing around with buying motors, rotors, batteries, discharging and charging hazards etc.

Cannot think of a single argument besides we may use an extra set of tires, maybe, however I came home with my original set after racing was over that was still in very good condition. I did use 1 extra set just for practicing after I had the race set broken in and set aside for race day.
Yes, Mini PRO, at it's inception, was perfect for mini class. Should not have changed anything other than Mini rules (aka, 17.5 brushless blinking systems only). Cheap, never burn up, never die electronics/batteries. Mini (safe - race winning) speed is limited by it's own chassis and tires. You can only use so much torque or speed in a mini.

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Old 12-07-2013, 01:49 PM
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Again...so I know FF03 is an exhibition class...is 1/12 gt too?
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Old 12-07-2013, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by FMW
Dear TCS racers,

The 20th Anniversary TCS season is upon us! . . . . .
Thanks a lot for everything that you do for us Fred!
I don't think that gets said often enough in between all of the discussions and opinions about the classes and events.
It just shows that we all have a lot of passion about the TCS events.

So once again, THANK YOU!
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Old 12-08-2013, 12:02 AM
  #18489  
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Originally Posted by Granpa
Okay, I'm very new to the B/L motor scene so will defer to my more experienced friends.

With that being said, does anyone know which motors have their timing marks at 50 degrees. I've already spent enough $$$$ on B/L motors to have purchased 20 Silvercans. Crap, $90 for the motor then another $40-50 for a tuning rotor. This is not turning out to be cheap.
Exactly! The primary reason I'm disappointed in this ruling to go brushless in Mini is going to be the additonal costs. Regretably many will feel the need to spend 3x the cost of a complete kit on motors and a speedo. I only wish that Tamiya would have contracted with a vendor to product a cost effective brushless system that at some point would make it into their kits for us to purchase.
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Old 12-08-2013, 12:08 AM
  #18490  
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Last year at Jackson they ran a heat of 17.5 blinky and the lap times were only a few 10 tha faster than silver can. Having a hard time understanding how with advanced motor timing in 21.5 is going to be any faster? Will try and run some tests using Reedy and Orca motors against my silver cans. With that said does anyone know if silver cans and brushless will be allowed to compete together
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Old 12-08-2013, 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Carl Giordano
Last year at Jackson they ran a heat of 17.5 blinky and the lap times were only a few 10 tha faster than silver can. Having a hard time understanding how with advanced motor timing in 21.5 is going to be any faster? Will try and run some tests using Reedy and Orca motors against my silver cans. With that said does anyone know if silver cans and brushless will be allowed to compete together
Carl,

Mini is 21.5 brushless only. No more silver cans in mini so no worries about running them together.

The 2012 Jackson race only had 3 of us running. Ed smoked his old Novak motor (bearing seized), Randy broke out, and Dave coasted to the end. All 3 were having traction roll issues so it's understandable the lap times were displayed as not much faster, but they were a bit faster than silver cans. If I recall, nobody ran a 20-tooth pinion either.

As far as costs - please, don't go there. A basic brushless ESC can be had new for ~$50 (Hobbywing, Speedpassion) and a used 21.5 motor can be picked up on the forums or at the track for under $50 if you just want to have fun. If you want to compete, be prepared to shell out more money. It's no different than the people buying 10+ silver cans and picking the best 1-2 for the racing. People were easily dropping $100 on just silver cans - those same people were competing in the A-main. The $25 esc/motor guys were back in the C/D-main having fun.
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Old 12-08-2013, 07:20 AM
  #18492  
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But if want to buy new look to spend 200.00 easy.....
Guess its the price you pay to play..
2013 maybe my last mini year
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Old 12-08-2013, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Jethroz
As far as costs - please, don't go there. A basic brushless ESC can be had new for ~$50 (Hobbywing, Speedpassion) and a used 21.5 motor can be picked up on the forums or at the track for under $50 if you just want to have fun. If you want to compete, be prepared to shell out more money. It's no different than the people buying 10+ silver cans and picking the best 1-2 for the racing. People were easily dropping $100 on just silver cans - those same people were competing in the A-main. The $25 esc/motor guys were back in the C/D-main having fun.
Exactly the reason I'm disappointed that Tamiya has not contracted with a low cost brand to enforce a speedo / motor that could retail for less than $100. The value of Mini is its attractiveness to a budget racer. Those who know me know I'm never one to have a budget when it comes to racing and cool stuff. But the fact is my m05 is in its 5 th season of racing with a 7 year old KO speedo. The only items I purchase for mini each year are 2 new motors and tires. Less than $50 and there is never a need to work on it as much as other classes. I've been collecting equipment since my boys have expressed and interest in racing. Would be nice if Tamiya produced a system in its RTR mini that would be compatible to race. This is where I feel there is a disconnect. With silver can system one could purchase an RTR mini and with just bearings shock upgrade actually have fun racing. This rule change prevents this.

So lets put it this way.. There are brushless tuners who sell 21.5 motors for $149 on the Internet and ROAR legal. This seems to ruin the spirit of mini racing.
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Old 12-08-2013, 10:01 AM
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If the motor size stays too small for an average system to be competitive, the cost will stay high in order to have the best stuff.
I race F1 with 21.5 with average well used electronics and it's still competitive.
That equipment is a Novak GTB 5+ years old and a Ballistic motor a couple years old.
In offroad 2 wheel drive buggy I run 17.5 with same speed control and same motor only 17.5. Not a Novak fanboy but just sayin it keeps working and is still competitive.
In my VTA car I run a Tekin RS that I bought used and an LRP X12 21.5 that may have even been given to me? and that is also very competitive.
Those are just a couple of examples of how brushless will be very affordable IF the motor size isn't undersized as the 21.5 in Mini seems to be, in my opinion of course.
I also have several other models that I also run with non state of the art equipment and they too are very competitive and those include:
2 wheel drive Short Course Trucks modified used 8.5 turn motor
4 wheel drive Short Course Trucks used 550 can motor 4.5 turn
8th scale electric Buggy also used electronics right down to the hi torque servo
My mini in exhibition 17.5 that won was all used stuff.
The list goes on but I'll stop and thanks for reading.
I had to make the point that when the correct motor size is chosen for a class, the cost can be a one time only cash output.

Last point is that 17.5 Touring Car is just the opposite and is where 21.5 Mini is gonna end up.
Best motors, best batteries and best esc will be needed and of course will also need to be constantly renewed in order to have the speed to even be close to being competitive and that is before the chassis tuning even comes into play.
No one wants to get blown away in a drag race lap after lap not to mention corner to corner. Getting around the corners is still gonna be up to the suspension tuner as it should be.
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Old 12-08-2013, 11:35 AM
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First I want to say that I aplaude Tamiya in thier efforts to keep their product and racing programs on the forfront of our industry. Also want to thank Fred and all the behind the scenes personel that work so hard to keep the TCS racing program running. I know it's not easy to do.

I'm just sitting here shaking my head with what I'm reading. I've been promoting Mini or M-chassis for all of the 20 plus years of TCS and always made this class grow. As a hobby shop owner and race promoter I don't know what I'm going to tell all my customers/racers to do. Many of these guys have just purchased thier equipment and have made a few of the TCS races, some with great success and some not so much. Still having fun. Somehow I'm going to have to find a way to get these guys to continue racing.

We saw a drop last year in VTA when we finally started to enforce the 25.5 rule! I waited 2 years plus to change our rules. Many of the same guys run these two classes and now to run in the TCS regionals they will have to purchase a brushless esc and motor to continue running another class that they love. We're not just talking about a guy here or there. Some father and son teams will have two of each to buy!

I know that Tamiya is just trying to make better races and racers. Is it perfect with the silver can motors? No. Too many guys have figured out how to "cheat". So we enforce an rpm rule. This seems to work as long as the venue has a dyno and uses it. I myself don't even break my motors in anymore because the newer 540J motors are so good. I also encourage my guys not to as well. Whether they listen to me or not is another story. I will tell you at our last two TCS races I had to tell more then a couple of guys that they could'nt use a motor that was above the rpm limit.

Will it be better with brushless? I think where you have competition you will always have someone who figures out how to "cheat" or bend the rules. I couldn't feel good about myself if that's how I won a race. I guess we will have to wait and see what becomes of our beloved M-chassis A.K.A. MINI.
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