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Old 10-31-2012, 06:04 PM
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David, I hope you didn't take offense at my comment. I guess what I was trying to say is we racers can and will take advantage of any ambiguity and/or grey area and that the skill levels are subjective. For example, we've got some very fast TC drivers here, but I've never seen Hara or Groskamp race live, so my perspective is limited. The other side of it is race directors who get duped by unscrupulous sandbaggers. Some people will do anything to win, even though cheating isn't winning.

I've seen some interesting things while doing tech that made me admire how the rules can be interpreted. EG: M06 rear lower shock mounts/suspension pivots used on all 4 corners of an M03. It fit within our rules that allowed any M chassis kit part or hop up. Looks like I accidentally deleted the line about re-engineering and suspension geometry. The car is incredibly smooth, btw.

It really is impossible to please everyone, all of the time, or to catch every last thing. You just have to plug the holes as you go.

Jim
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Old 10-31-2012, 06:24 PM
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David,
I still question why can't mini run 21.5 and silver can as one class. We are running it that way now and the speeds are very comparable. If mini pro is an inactive class why even try to have the regional host tracks encourage people to run it. One mini class open to both motors would be a huge and competitive class and also give people who have converted their cars to BL a competitive class to run in.
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Old 10-31-2012, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by David J.
Because the TCS web site has not been fully updated yet, there was so way for anyone to see what is active and inactive. I hope to have everything up to date by tomorrow or early next week.

However, to answer your question, F1/F1 Foam, GT-1, GT-2, GT-3, Spec, Mini and 1/12th GT are the active classes for 2013.

Also, you can now use any Brushless ESC (non boost profile) on the approved TCS ESC list for any class allowing brushless systems. That list has been expanded (will be posted by next week). The motor list remains the same for the 2013 season but likely expanded for 2014.
Can someone confirm esc's don't get removed from the list? Eg I am definitely safe running an esc which currently shows on the tcs website?
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Old 10-31-2012, 08:17 PM
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DavidJ

If enough guys show up at a reginal even to run FF03, since it is not an "official" class can it be counted as a 3rd class so as not to sacrifice one official class for an unofficial? If guys do run it perhaps give them credit on the website for their finishing position.

For mains structure. There needs to be something about mentioning the structure for the mains. Traditionally most TCS races has been raced as 10 car mains (which most of us who go to a TCS race would assume). Yet if a race director decides different, they can adjust to their interests.
Like if I am a solid 8th place and know it is pretty safe in the A, I might explore more aggressive setup that lets say does not work out for the final Q round, keeping me 8th. Then when the mains print find out that the A cutoff was 7th place, leaving me BTQ.
I would think that either the race director should state the A cutoff in the drivers meeting or Tamiya should mandate a 10 car A minimum. I have seen 2 car Bs or even a 11 car A to compensate for a smallish class. The A is the defining factor to racing.
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Old 10-31-2012, 09:07 PM
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EDIT

I forgot to quote:

*fistfull of popcorn - stuffs into pie-hole - chewing* Reading and watching the thread...


Last edited by SMcD; 10-31-2012 at 09:23 PM.
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Old 10-31-2012, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by A-Ko

For mains structure. There needs to be something about mentioning the structure for the mains. Traditionally most TCS races has been raced as 10 car mains (which most of us who go to a TCS race would assume). Yet if a race director decides different, they can adjust to their interests.
Like if I am a solid 8th place and know it is pretty safe in the A, I might explore more aggressive setup that lets say does not work out for the final Q round, keeping me 8th. Then when the mains print find out that the A cutoff was 7th place, leaving me BTQ.
I would think that either the race director should state the A cutoff in the drivers meeting or Tamiya should mandate a 10 car A minimum. I have seen 2 car Bs or even a 11 car A to compensate for a smallish class. The A is the defining factor to racing.
I hear what you are saying. unfortunately it's up to the race director to determine the number of cars in the 'A'.
At the 2012 TCS Finals, the F1 A main only ran 9 cars. One person in the top 10 was absent and I was the 11th qualifier. I was not allotted that 10th position and remained the BQ. I was off the pace and would have yielded to the faster cars but it would have been nice to run in the A since I traveled across the US to participate.
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Old 11-01-2012, 01:49 AM
  #17452  
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So Grandpa,
Next birthday I'll be 70, which will qualify me for the True Idiot driver class, a rather exclusive TCS group. And you are our leader, king of the IDIOTS. Long live the Idiots...
Does this mean I can race GT3 again?

Last edited by Laguna Bozo; 11-01-2012 at 10:33 AM. Reason: stupid poster
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Old 11-01-2012, 03:54 AM
  #17453  
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Originally Posted by f1larry
David,
I still question why can't mini run 21.5 and silver can as one class. We are running it that way now and the speeds are very comparable. If mini pro is an inactive class why even try to have the regional host tracks encourage people to run it. One mini class open to both motors would be a huge and competitive class and also give people who have converted their cars to BL a competitive class to run in.
Larry, I know it works for us at Harbor hobbies, but I think with the timing adjustments for brushless and the fixed gear ratio 6.0 on minis. I feel to be near the top you will need to invest in a novak ballistick 21.5 or the reedy sonic. the timing is almost infinite on those motors and the silvercan motors will be limited to 18,750 rpm. no limit for brushless. if the gear ratio was adjustable then I would agree with you 100%. But if they did have mini pro as an active class I would consider the investment to run both classes.
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Old 11-01-2012, 04:13 AM
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Mike
,
If I remember right you were running a silver can last time and after I turned up my timing on my ballistic I still don't think I was as fast as you on the straight. Last year the 17.5 was faster than the silver cans but I think the 21.5 with timing are real close to a good silver can.

Originally Posted by mike.a
Larry, I know it works for us at Harbor hobbies, but I think with the timing adjustments for brushless and the fixed gear ratio 6.0 on minis. I feel to be near the top you will need to invest in a novak ballistick 21.5 or the reedy sonic. the timing is almost infinite on those motors and the silvercan motors will be limited to 18,750 rpm. no limit for brushless. if the gear ratio was adjustable then I would agree with you 100%. But if they did have mini pro as an active class I would consider the investment to run both classes.
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Old 11-01-2012, 05:00 AM
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Hi David,

Any thoughts on updating the ESC rules to mirror the ROAR approved list of "Blinky" / fixed timing ESC's?

Thanks,
Jimmy
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Old 11-01-2012, 07:32 AM
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According to the rules in the Tamiya web site, Mini Pro is a 17.5 class. Saw no mention of 21.5. I may have missed something or went to the wrong set of rules.
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Old 11-01-2012, 08:23 AM
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I believe David J. said previously that the Mini Pro class will be inactive for 2013.
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Old 11-01-2012, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by monkeyracing
David, I hope you didn't take offense at my comment. I guess what I was trying to say is we racers can and will take advantage of any ambiguity and/or grey area and that the skill levels are subjective. For example, we've got some very fast TC drivers here, but I've never seen Hara or Groskamp race live, so my perspective is limited. The other side of it is race directors who get duped by unscrupulous sandbaggers. Some people will do anything to win, even though cheating isn't winning.

I've seen some interesting things while doing tech that made me admire how the rules can be interpreted. EG: M06 rear lower shock mounts/suspension pivots used on all 4 corners of an M03. It fit within our rules that allowed any M chassis kit part or hop up. Looks like I accidentally deleted the line about re-engineering and suspension geometry. The car is incredibly smooth, btw.

It really is impossible to please everyone, all of the time, or to catch every last thing. You just have to plug the holes as you go.

Jim
Jim, no offence taken at all, but youíll have to trust me when I say I understand and Iím aware of racers tendency to take advantage of anything they can to gain an advantage. Iíve seen my fair share of fast drivers in my day, including Hara and Groskamp so I feel fortunate to be able to apply what Iíve experienced to the TCS series.
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Old 11-01-2012, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by MD
I believe David J. said previously that the Mini Pro class will be inactive for 2013.
True, and I did see that. But, the question was, where did 21.5 appear in the rules???? Just wanted to make sure I was reading the right version of the rules.

My mistake. i read one of the posts wrong.
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Old 11-01-2012, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by f1larry
David,
I still question why can't mini run 21.5 and silver can as one class. We are running it that way now and the speeds are very comparable. If mini pro is an inactive class why even try to have the regional host tracks encourage people to run it. One mini class open to both motors would be a huge and competitive class and also give people who have converted their cars to BL a competitive class to run in.
Cost. As technology progresses, the cost of brushless systems is going down but it is still not as affordable as the 540-J motors long term or short term. Silver can motors used in Mini last for quite some time, the ďtweakedĒ ones donít which is why the 18,750 RPM limit is in place and also why we use hand out motors for the TCS Finals. Speaking of these handout motors, I personally dyno each one and I can tell you the variance so small, you canít detect it on the track. This and the fact that the silver can tech is ďstableĒ which means you donít have to buy a new version silver can motor on a regular basis, everyone is running the exact same thing. It is the most level, fair and low cost form of racing in the TCS series (perhaps any series).

Brushless is without a doubt the future. But for now in TCS, Mini, and GT Spec are categories where racers donít have to deal with stator matching, rotor tuning and keeping up with the newest ESC or motor technology.
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