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Old 10-27-2012, 10:59 AM
  #17386  
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Originally Posted by Markus
I guess we are all getting a taste of "A Day in a Life of Fred Medal concerning TCS Racing" and can now appreciate even more the choices that he had to make.
This is getting crazy now. GT5? why don't we have a GT6, GT7, and GT8 that way we can have 3 cars per qualifiers and almost everyone can beat someone...
Don't we play with our toy cars to Race against other people with their toy cars? why would we add classes to dilute the competition?
Hell, leave the rules the same as last year and just show up and race the class you have gear for!
TCS is becoming a race series little league.... shall we all get trophies at the end of the year for participating like little kids tee-ball, peewee football?
Can't agree more. You hit the nail on the head. Everyone wants a class built around what they have so they can be competitive and win.
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Old 10-27-2012, 07:37 PM
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I really don't think anyone is proposing classes based on what they have so they can win especially the classes I proposed. I know there are differences between the West Coast and the rest of the country. In the Midwest GT1 is never a big class with the 13.5. Maybe GT1's motor could change based on what type of track the race is on. If you look at my idea it is the same number of classes run now just trying to phase out the old and bridge to brushless which is the present and future. It probably will not be long that the Tamiya kits will start to be sold with some sort of a brushless systems. Look at hobby wing and speed passion they have BL ESC and Motor combos for less than $100.
How about the following
GT1 - BL 17.5 or 13.5
GT2 - BL 21.5 or silver can (more of a advanced class)
GT3 - silver can for those stepping up from spec
FF03 - BL 21.5 or silver can
Mini - BL 21.5 or silver can (separating BL form silver can dilutes the class and the cars are comparable in speed).
F104 - BL 21.5 or silver can (185mm width only with the new rubber tire,maybe even open it up to the F103 cars with the F104 front end and f104 rubber tires)
1/12th - BL 17.5
Spec TT01 - silver can beginner class
Originally Posted by Kevin CBR
Can't agree more. You hit the nail on the head. Everyone wants a class built around what they have so they can be competitive and win.
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Old 10-29-2012, 12:00 AM
  #17388  
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Originally Posted by Kevin CBR
4 brushless sedan classes plus spec/rookie is diluting too much. Plus, 25.5 may be popular in Mid West and East Coast but almost non-existent on the West Coast.

13.5 for GT-1 and 17.5 for GT-2 are good combos for speed and the challenge to learn to drive better to be faster. I notice a lot of the Eastern side tracks, especially carpet tracks have very few GT-1 and GT-2 entries but lots of silver can GT-3 and mini entries. Our local carpet track in So Cal is going 13.5 for expert stock (GT-1 cars) and Sportsman sedan will stay 17.5. 21.5 in a GT-2 car is too slow, even on small tracks. What's the fun in driving full throttle the whole lap and never lifting ? Is that really challenging ?

GT-3 is supposed to be the intermediate level drivers stepping up from spec class. If gearing is a concern, the idea of a spec gearing rule would not be bad. And once you buy the brushless esc, you can buy a top of the line brushless motor for the price of two "hot" silver can motors without all the cleaning and tuning hassles.

Panda
I did not state that we should have 4 BL sedan classes, only that there are 4 different ones that are popular, depending on where you live, the track you race, etc. . .

21.5 is not as you state, if it was, then perhaps the guys that don't lift at your track are pretty slow, geared wrong or you have no experience running it. Even the 25.5 class you still have to lift at some point which it is comparable to GT3 silvercan racing.

Perhaps the Gt1 & Gt2 classes should be left up to a survey for those who have raced it in what they would like. If it changes every year, that could be left up to the racers from each event. I don't really care to comment about F1 or Mini due to I only dabble in it locally, not really in TCS.

GT3 already has an RPM rule, by adding a gear ratio rule you just add to tech something that may or maynot be something that would be enforced properly. Is tech really going to check pulleys and calculate ratios, maybe if it was one car, isnt that what spec is? I would rather see a list of names of people who cannot run GT3 (like myself). Depending on the track the GT3 can be interpeted differently. Guys who are skilled to run in the top of the A for Gt1 or Gt2 for example should not be in GT3. Have seen it in 2012 and don't think it is fair for true GT3 people. Even told one of the guys who did win GT3 you are too advanced for it when he asked me about it before registration, the track owner had the final say after this person begged and pleaded his case. Having a published list would help Tamiya police this.

I believe Tamiya needs to state that the A-main should be 10 car which has been traditionally that, yet can be and has been changed in 2012, with no warning until the mains were printed out. This was across the all the classes.


As usual Tamiya does a great job at organizing the series and keeping many of us interested in the TCS racing. I don't envy their position in keeping on top of the rules each year yet do appreciate all they have done in the past.
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Old 10-29-2012, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by A-Ko
I did not state that we should have 4 BL sedan classes, only that there are 4 different ones that are popular, depending on where you live, the track you race, etc. . .

21.5 is not as you state, if it was, then perhaps the guys that don't lift at your track are pretty slow, geared wrong or you have no experience running it. Even the 25.5 class you still have to lift at some point which it is comparable to GT3 silvercan racing.

Perhaps the Gt1 & Gt2 classes should be left up to a survey for those who have raced it in what they would like. If it changes every year, that could be left up to the racers from each event. I don't really care to comment about F1 or Mini due to I only dabble in it locally, not really in TCS.

GT3 already has an RPM rule, by adding a gear ratio rule you just add to tech something that may or maynot be something that would be enforced properly. Is tech really going to check pulleys and calculate ratios, maybe if it was one car, isnt that what spec is? I would rather see a list of names of people who cannot run GT3 (like myself). Depending on the track the GT3 can be interpeted differently. Guys who are skilled to run in the top of the A for Gt1 or Gt2 for example should not be in GT3. Have seen it in 2012 and don't think it is fair for true GT3 people. Even told one of the guys who did win GT3 you are too advanced for it when he asked me about it before registration, the track owner had the final say after this person begged and pleaded his case. Having a published list would help Tamiya police this.

I believe Tamiya needs to state that the A-main should be 10 car which has been traditionally that, yet can be and has been changed in 2012, with no warning until the mains were printed out. This was across the all the classes.


As usual Tamiya does a great job at organizing the series and keeping many of us interested in the TCS racing. I don't envy their position in keeping on top of the rules each year yet do appreciate all they have done in the past.
Best way to prevent a sandbagger in GT-3 is peer pressure. If the person is known and willing to put up with the taunts and teasing just to win a car kit, that says a lot about their character.

We have tried 21.5 4wd sedan at some tracks, geared properly and with some good drivers (A-Main GT-1 and GT-2 drivers). Alas, it was (yawn) slow and went away. I just don't understand the big attraction to 21.5 and 25.5 motors in 4wd sedans. I know a lot of people will say the "tight racing" but it is easier to drive a slow car faster. If people who have been racing 5 or 10+ years want to run slower cars, that is their choice. Just don't hold everyone back and push for a 21.5 GT-2 class as you will noticed is only suggested by the Midwest and East Coast driver. 17.5 is standard "stock" class nation wide and where GT-2 should stay, just like it was back in the 27T motor days.

As for the A main rule, I have raced at smaller carpet tracks that have run 8 cars in the A main and also seen 11 cars in an A-main because do you really want to see just one person not get to run because they are the only person in the B ? Also seen bump-ups from the B winner into the A. There is more flexibility track to track at regionals. At Nationals this year, there were 11 GT-1 drivers and the 11th guy did not run because they stayed with 10 in the A.

Panda
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Old 10-29-2012, 10:14 AM
  #17390  
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Did you know?.......a 21.5 sedan does similar lap times to an F1.
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Old 10-29-2012, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by robk
Did you know?.......a 21.5 sedan does similar lap times to an F1.
That sounds about right, as F1 rubber on our carpet track is about 1s off the pace of 17.5 sedan

I have run 21.5 FWD and it was actually a lot of fun

No dog in this fight on sedan motor options, as I'm a pan car dude

that's just my
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Old 10-29-2012, 11:08 AM
  #17392  
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Originally Posted by Kevin CBR
Best way to prevent a sandbagger in GT-3 is peer pressure. If the person is known and willing to put up with the taunts and teasing just to win a car kit, that says a lot about their character.

We have tried 21.5 4wd sedan at some tracks, geared properly and with some good drivers (A-Main GT-1 and GT-2 drivers). Alas, it was (yawn) slow and went away. I just don't understand the big attraction to 21.5 and 25.5 motors in 4wd sedans. I know a lot of people will say the "tight racing" but it is easier to drive a slow car faster. If people who have been racing 5 or 10+ years want to run slower cars, that is their choice. Just don't hold everyone back and push for a 21.5 GT-2 class as you will noticed is only suggested by the Midwest and East Coast driver. 17.5 is standard "stock" class nation wide and where GT-2 should stay, just like it was back in the 27T motor days.

As for the A main rule, I have raced at smaller carpet tracks that have run 8 cars in the A main and also seen 11 cars in an A-main because do you really want to see just one person not get to run because they are the only person in the B ? Also seen bump-ups from the B winner into the A. There is more flexibility track to track at regionals. At Nationals this year, there were 11 GT-1 drivers and the 11th guy did not run because they stayed with 10 in the A.

Panda
I don't believe peer pressure works. I attended a TCS where a guy won the novice class the previous year. His picture was on the website. He raced Mini for years. I went and talked to his friend and they wouldn't do anything. The person from Tamiya obviously didn't care. He won again, imagine that. If you travel to a race out of your area who's going to know your past experience? in the Novice/Spec all kinds of hop ups are allowed. So, it becomes a money race like the other classes. Unfortunately, we cannot depend on the honesty of many people today.

To me the Novice/Spec Class should be a FWD Mini. There would few if any hop ups allowed. Then the person has a car they can move up the next year to the regular Mini Class, and buy hop ups. Tamiya Mini Classes are run all over the country. So, it's a car that can be used at other tracks. It's one of the most popular cars in the world. With the TT01 used in the current Novice Class/Spec most people cannot compete with the more expensive chassis allowed in the other classes. If they race in TC classes in their own area it's not going to be as competitive for most people. So, people often don't want to buy a car that they are going to use for one race, one time.
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Old 10-29-2012, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by robk
Did you know?.......a 21.5 sedan does similar lap times to an F1.
Maybe at your track with your crop of drivers. At our local track carpet track, there is a noticeable separation. Fastest laps for our current track layout:

Expert sedan 17.5. - 10.9
Sportsman sedan 17.5 - 11.3
F1 21.5 - 11.7
FWD (silver can) - 13.0.
We do not run 21.5 or 25.5 sedan. In fact, our rookie sedan class runs 17.5. What motors does your local track use for rookie sedan ?

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Old 10-29-2012, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Kevin CBR
Maybe at your track with your crop of drivers. At our local track carpet track, there is a noticeable separation. Fastest laps for our current track layout:

Expert sedan 17.5. - 10.9
Sportsman sedan 17.5 - 11.3
F1 21.5 - 11.7
FWD (silver can) - 13.0.
We do not run 21.5 or 25.5 sedan. In fact, our rookie sedan class runs 17.5. What motors does your local track use for rookie sedan ?

Panda
Our separation is almost exactly like yours, slightly less than 1 second. The 21.5 cars sometimes are a couple tenths quicker, depending on the layout. In fact one of the guys who races 17.5 went 9.9 and then went 10.5 in 21.5. That's pretty much the same 17.5 hotlap as Brad Johnson and Josh Hohnstein in the same race, who both made the 17.5 A main at the IIC.

As far as "rookie", most of the newer guys run VTA or mini.
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Old 10-30-2012, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by f1larry
I really don't think anyone is proposing classes based on what they have so they can win especially the classes I proposed. I know there are differences between the West Coast and the rest of the country. In the Midwest GT1 is never a big class with the 13.5. Maybe GT1's motor could change based on what type of track the race is on. If you look at my idea it is the same number of classes run now just trying to phase out the old and bridge to brushless which is the present and future. It probably will not be long that the Tamiya kits will start to be sold with some sort of a brushless systems. Look at hobby wing and speed passion they have BL ESC and Motor combos for less than $100.
How about the following
GT1 - BL 17.5 or 13.5
GT2 - BL 21.5 or silver can (more of a advanced class)
GT3 - silver can for those stepping up from spec
FF03 - BL 21.5 or silver can
Mini - BL 21.5 or silver can (separating BL form silver can dilutes the class and the cars are comparable in speed).
F104 - BL 21.5 or silver can (185mm width only with the new rubber tire,maybe even open it up to the F103 cars with the F104 front end and f104 rubber tires)
1/12th - BL 17.5
Spec TT01 - silver can beginner class
Well since it looks like we should have rules very soon I think after seeing all the comments posted I will put in my 2 cents as well

I think the idea of spec, sportsman, or rookie classes is fading away (sadly) I propose that this year we blend TTO1 and Mini together in the spec class. Here is my logic
1. the cars in the hands of beginners will be about the same speed.
2. it will bring in kids and beginners that race mini and know they are not quite ready to run with the big boys and do not want to spend the money on a TTO1 for 1 race a class for them.
3. it gives beginners the choice of sedan or mini when they move up to gt3, mini , or mini gt.

so this is what I would see as classes:

spec.= mini or TTO1, silver can ( weight limit around 1400 grams so they are close in weight) a mini with a nimh will make this no problem.

mini.= same as last year silver can, spec tires ( mabey open tire for carpet tracks)?

gt3= same as last year a place to step up from spec. with tub chassis legal and silver can.

gt2= 21.5 and then the same as last year with chassis rules.

gt1= 17.5 and then any double deck or tub same as last year ( 13.5 is just to fast for most smaller indoor tracks and I think 17.5 with the right gearing should be plenty fast outdoors).

f1= 21.5 and same as last year.

fwd= 21.5 and same as last year.

mini pro= 17.5 and same as last year.


I hope I did not forget a class, but I think this keeps people legal with what they have and really might bring in more beginners. I have 3 boys myself and want to continue TCS for as long as we can. Hope to see you all out there, and as a side note we saw no problems last year with the 18,500 rpm rule, this seems to be perfect for silver can.
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Old 10-30-2012, 10:51 AM
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in my opinion, the best thing to do for 2013 TCS rules is:


LEAVE IT ALONE!!!!!!


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Old 10-30-2012, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by teamstrc
in my opinion, the best thing to do for 2013 TCS rules is:


LEAVE IT ALONE!!!!!!


+1
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Old 10-30-2012, 10:58 AM
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+2
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Old 10-30-2012, 11:34 AM
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+3
The only thing I could possibly think to change would be 21.5 in FWD.
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Old 10-30-2012, 11:40 AM
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I agree with Mike.a that mini would be a good choice for the Novice/Spec Class.
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