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Old 12-14-2011, 04:35 PM
  #16531  
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Originally Posted by OSherman
then EVERYONE but Novice/SPEC would be running GT1.. i like the sound of that..
Exactly. If someone can claim novice after 5 trips to NAChamps then they should be bumped up. That would mean they would have to good enough to compete at the regional events (quite competitive) and qualify at the top of their class just to qualify for the Nats. And to complete regionally and race at the Nats for 5 visits. I think that is a strong indicator they are out of the 'novice' years. If they make the "A" at the Nats they should be moved up the following years.

Granted some racers are just happy to be there. That said, race in a class that challenges you and give the opportunity to the up and coming talent for a chance to win the lower divisions.

My 2 cents, then again I already earned it
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Old 12-14-2011, 05:29 PM
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Orlando,
Does this mean your going to move up from silver can to 13.5?
Something just doesn't sound right about that? Not to say your not an expert driver, I want to make that perfectly clear but it's just strange to hear someone having to be bumped up from Johnson silver can to 13.5 brusless.

I myself want to run 13.5 also, I want improve my driving and the only way to do that is to compete with the best out there,ie. Orlando, Rod, etc.etc.
Also, since I'm not an expert I will also run 17.5 but I'm wanting to move up from there, I just need a win or podium to get there. Close but no cigar!
I have a feeling there's also going to be a lot of 17.5 racers bumped up from silvercan class because of GT-3 class eligibility requirements!

Then there's also Pro Mini class and that's going to be interesting with 17.5 brushless!
Many,many choices!!
Just my 2$ (Just haven't earned it! YET!)
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Old 12-14-2011, 06:15 PM
  #16533  
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I have been wanting to get away from silvercans since BL was introduced. But my goal is to make the trip, so I 'played the game' like everyone else.. And still got my perverbial 'expert-arse' handed to me..

Fred hasn't officially told me that I had to run expert only.. But I was 'recommended' o do so at the SpeedTech race.. I'm sure people are watching and with my recent luck, well...
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Old 12-15-2011, 09:23 AM
  #16534  
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Since TCS initiated silvercan rules (to combat 'White' motors), the problem has actually gotten WORSE. The spread between SC 'haves' and 'have nots' has become greater. The tuners figured out how to increase the torque without going over RPM limits. They are just too smart...

Everyone wants to get away from silvercans (even most of the 'haves'), and it was a big disappointment that FWD retained silvercans this year. Next year we will probably be posting similar complaints about brushless tuners, but at least we're going into this knowing 'tuning rotors' are legal.

Now hold your line!! And if you hit from the rear etc, etc, etc...
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Old 12-15-2011, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Laguna Bozo
....
Everyone wants to get away from silvercans (even most of the 'haves'), and it was a big disappointment that FWD retained silvercans this year. ...
Huge letdown!!!


i was soooo looking forward to it, trip or not..
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Old 12-15-2011, 05:05 PM
  #16536  
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Hi guys (and gals). Just got in some new and not so new goodies

new Audi R8 body
not so new
2005 NSX body

Mini and B3 premounts
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Old 12-15-2011, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by stitchy
Hi guys (and gals). Just got in some new and not so new goodies

new Audi R8 body
not so new
2005 NSX body

Mini and B3 premounts

You got PM..

thanks
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Old 12-15-2011, 10:00 PM
  #16538  
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Wow, I can not believe the banter still going on after Fred "clarified" the class recommendations. As a refresher - Novice / spec and GT-3 are the ONLY classes that will be "policed" to keep sand baggers, cherry pickers and campers out of the classes. All other classes were "minimum recommendations". Fred even mentioned that if an Intermediate wants to run in GT-1, they can, just don't cry if you get lapped five times in a 6 minute race.

As for the "sportsman / expert" concerns, personally, I am with Mark Dawson (aka: a past TCS National Champion who won in GT-1) that drivers should pick a class that challenges them.

As for the Speedtech race, I was originally signed up for Sportsman 17.5 because I did not want to buy a 13.5 motor to run "expert" class until I saw what was legal for TCS. When I saw the entry list, I felt I would be cherry picking in Sportsman and felt better to be in a challenging class so I contacted Albert from Speedtech (while I was in China) to please move me to mod if a spot opened up and please drop me from Sportsman. A spot opened so I ran mod. If no spot opened, I would have run 4wd mini only. Yeah, maybe I was only 5th in the B main for open mod but I sure had a blast.

Why no brushless in FF03 ? Maybe because Fred saw the same problem I had trying to put a Novak Ballistic in mine. Bending tabs over just to fit in the chassis is not cool.

With that said, I am looking forward to the January Regional at Tamiya. Only problem I have is not knowing what to choose as my second class. GT-1 will be my #1 choice but I also have a GT-2, F104 and FF03 all good to go. Decisions, decisions......
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Old 12-15-2011, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Kevin CBR
Wow, I can not believe the banter still going on after Fred "clarified" the class recommendations. As a refresher - Novice / spec and GT-3 are the ONLY classes that will be "policed" to keep sand baggers, cherry pickers and campers out of the classes. All other classes were "minimum recommendations". Fred even mentioned that if an Intermediate wants to run in GT-1, they can, just don't cry if you get lapped five times in a 6 minute race.

As for the "sportsman / expert" concerns, personally, I am with Mark Dawson (aka: a past TCS National Champion who won in GT-1) that drivers should pick a class that challenges them.

As for the Speedtech race, I was originally signed up for Sportsman 17.5 because I did not want to buy a 13.5 motor to run "expert" class until I saw what was legal for TCS. When I saw the entry list, I felt I would be cherry picking in Sportsman and felt better to be in a challenging class so I contacted Albert from Speedtech (while I was in China) to please move me to mod if a spot opened up and please drop me from Sportsman. A spot opened so I ran mod. If no spot opened, I would have run 4wd mini only. Yeah, maybe I was only 5th in the B main for open mod but I sure had a blast.

Why no brushless in FF03 ? Maybe because Fred saw the same problem I had trying to put a Novak Ballistic in mine. Bending tabs over just to fit in the chassis is not cool.

With that said, I am looking forward to the January Regional at Tamiya. Only problem I have is not knowing what to choose as my second class. 1/12GT will be my #1 choice but I also have a GT-2, F104 and FF03 all good to go. Decisions, decisions......
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Old 12-16-2011, 08:42 AM
  #16540  
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Originally Posted by Kevin CBR
Wow, I can not believe the banter still going on after Fred "clarified" the class recommendations. ....

....Why no brushless in FF03 ? Maybe because Fred saw the same problem I had trying to put a Novak Ballistic in mine. Bending tabs over just to fit in the chassis is not cool....

.....
acccording to this page GT2 is "closed to EXPERT racers". That statement alone doesnt sound like a 'reccomendation'. I take it as LAW. Can someone post a link to this 'clarification'?
i missed that part

as far as FF03 goes $6.00 can fix the motor fitment. An 'option' to run a brushless would have been nice..

$0.02

Last edited by OSherman; 12-16-2011 at 08:54 AM.
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Old 12-16-2011, 09:44 AM
  #16541  
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Off topic, but am posting just for my Mini racing cohorts. BL motors seem to be more plentiful now, so have been able to do a few on track comparisons. These observations are from relatively limited number of trial runs and the car used in these tests was an M03, equipped with a KO BLZ 350 and a Novak Ballistic 17.5. The timing on the motor was at 30 and 35 degrees.

The above set up is a bit slower than a "good" TCS legal Silvercan. It is about the same as a run of the mill Silvercan. If the timing was limited to 30 degrees, they could run comfortably together with no advantage one to the other.

Advancing the timing will make car faster, but not uncomfortably so. I tested several runs with a Mini with the timing cranked a bit, and was slower. My guess is that equal drivers, you're looking at .5 to maybe .8 sec. per lap. This seems about the right speed differential between the 2 classes.

Just some thoughts off the top of my head, but my feeling is that the BL class should be faster than the Silvercan class. Trying to make them the same speed serves no real purpose. My bottom of the line BL system costs more than twice what my Silvercan set up costs and I'd like to have a little more speed for my investment. Frankly, one of the suggestions to slow the BL Minis down, would have made them slower than a SC Mini.

This makes absolutely no sense to me. Why do the 2 classes have to run at the same speed?????? Makes about as much sense as having GT1 and GT2 be the same speed.
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Old 12-16-2011, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Granpa
Off topic, but am posting just for my Mini racing cohorts. BL motors seem to be more plentiful now, so have been able to do a few on track comparisons. These observations are from relatively limited number of trial runs and the car used in these tests was an M03, equipped with a KO BLZ 350 and a Novak Ballistic 17.5. The timing on the motor was at 30 and 35 degrees.

The above set up is a bit slower than a "good" TCS legal Silvercan. It is about the same as a run of the mill Silvercan. If the timing was limited to 30 degrees, they could run comfortably together with no advantage one to the other.

Advancing the timing will make car faster, but not uncomfortably so. I tested several runs with a Mini with the timing cranked a bit, and was slower. My guess is that equal drivers, you're looking at .5 to maybe .8 sec. per lap. This seems about the right speed differential between the 2 classes.

Just some thoughts off the top of my head, but my feeling is that the BL class should be faster than the Silvercan class. Trying to make them the same speed serves no real purpose. My bottom of the line BL system costs more than twice what my Silvercan set up costs and I'd like to have a little more speed for my investment. Frankly, one of the suggestions to slow the BL Minis down, would have made them slower than a SC Mini.

This makes absolutely no sense to me. Why do the 2 classes have to run at the same speed?????? Makes about as much sense as having GT1 and GT2 be the same speed.
I'm surprised by your findings. I would've figured that 17.5 BL (blinky ESC) would be considerably faster than a TCS legal SC. In F1 we arrived to a similar conlcusion but it was with a 21.5 BL/blinky ESC setup. That being said, the tests were on two different cars so the outcome may not be the same.
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Old 12-16-2011, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by John.C
I'm surprised by your findings. I would've figured that 17.5 BL (blinky ESC) would be considerably faster than a TCS legal SC. In F1 we arrived to a similar conlcusion but it was with a 21.5 BL/blinky ESC setup. That being said, the tests were on two different cars so the outcome may not be the same.
Fixed gearing in a Mini, remember???? As i said in my post, Mini only.
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Old 12-16-2011, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Kevin CBR
Why no brushless in FF03 ? Maybe because Fred saw the same problem I had trying to put a Novak Ballistic in mine. Bending tabs over just to fit in the chassis is not cool.

Novak SS Pro motors fit perfectly, just solder the wires vertically to the tabs at the butt side of the motor. Those are in the list of allowed BL motors.
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Old 12-16-2011, 12:33 PM
  #16545  
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Originally Posted by Granpa
Off topic, but am posting just for my Mini racing cohorts. BL motors seem to be more plentiful now, so have been able to do a few on track comparisons. These observations are from relatively limited number of trial runs and the car used in these tests was an M03, equipped with a KO BLZ 350 and a Novak Ballistic 17.5. The timing on the motor was at 30 and 35 degrees.

The above set up is a bit slower than a "good" TCS legal Silvercan. It is about the same as a run of the mill Silvercan. If the timing was limited to 30 degrees, they could run comfortably together with no advantage one to the other.

Advancing the timing will make car faster, but not uncomfortably so. I tested several runs with a Mini with the timing cranked a bit, and was slower. My guess is that equal drivers, you're looking at .5 to maybe .8 sec. per lap. This seems about the right speed differential between the 2 classes.

Just some thoughts off the top of my head, but my feeling is that the BL class should be faster than the Silvercan class. Trying to make them the same speed serves no real purpose. My bottom of the line BL system costs more than twice what my Silvercan set up costs and I'd like to have a little more speed for my investment. Frankly, one of the suggestions to slow the BL Minis down, would have made them slower than a SC Mini.

This makes absolutely no sense to me. Why do the 2 classes have to run at the same speed?????? Makes about as much sense as having GT1 and GT2 be the same speed.
The findings are not too surprising and will probably vary with track size and driver skill (already pointed out). The fixed gearing makes a differences for sure. However, on smaller indoor tracks, I would think the brushless will win out as it can get to speed quicker and can be tuned with timing. The last few races I attended the tracks were not big enough to show the advantage of a +18,000rpm mabuchi. Most of the winners in each classes were around 16500 and lower. I would guess the goal is to combine 540J and BL, similar to F1, but some trial races are needed to find out what is best. Lowering the RPM limit on 540J to the 17500 originally used at the first 3-4 2011 TCS races might do it.
The first race will be an interesting show to say the least.

I did recently test a 540J and 21.5 F1 car with the same gearing - the 21.5 was much faster (especially off the line), had stronger brakes and was fade free - the 540J loses speed quickly as it heats up. That doesn't mean it will be the same in an M03/M05 or M06, but just another data point. I plan a similar comparising in the upcoming weeks with my M06 to double check.
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