Modified .21 engines for the cheap - lets disrupt the market >:)
 

Back in the ol' days of just a few years ago , Kyosho was the dominant leader in 1/8th off-road buggies and there were no decent competitors.

Fast forward to present time. Now, manufacturers from China, Taiwan are able to produce similar quality kits for much less.

Novarossi has and always been the dominant engine manufacturer since time began. They charge high dollar for their engines - let alone the modified line.

Look folks, engines are engines, the theory of its inner workings and its science has been known for decades. Everyone in the know (and there is many) understands what makes more power within a particular engine design - its not a mystery anymore.

Our national champion, Michael Kerr is hoping Sirio to get their act together and try to beat this towering behemoth and hopefully bring cost down.

Why not then, the asian manufacturers take this into their own hands and produce highly cost effective modified engines that equals or rivals Novarossi's line? (both in terms of performance, build quality and reliability) They are already well known for copying items from software, to handbags, to clothes and god knows what else and boy do they do it well.

Novarossi's current market standing is as any greedy businessman would say "If we can charge more, why not?"

We have private citizens that can modify engines for U$80-90. There is no doubt computerised CNC machines can be bought for just a few thousand dollars and mass production can reduce the cost of modification substantially.

Why not take a few sample of everyone's line of modified engines - i.e. Lelasi's, Rody's, Mario's, JP's - use a 3D laser scanner and have a CAD model they can work with.

This is a relatively inexpensive investment which does not require much R&D work and it would be great to get some brand reliability from the East. Since they are known for copying everything from wallets to clothes and god knows what else - surely they can do engines as well :nod:

O.S. engines can sell VZ-B/V01Bs for U$185 from HK (retail price) - surely with a cad drawing of a JP Black RX P5 motor for example, they can make new moulds and produce the same replica for the same price (or slightly higher) as their VZ-B/V01b line?

U$500-600 for an engine and U$200 for replacement P/S is outright robbery.

Comments? :D

Its way more than just a few thousand dollars, believe me.

I think you have the right idea, and its pretty much what everyone thinks should happen,or hopes would happen.

We dont live in a perfect world, and what you are saying needs a perfect world.

The truth is that its not as easy as you make it sound. Everything requires a large amount of money. I agree than in asia the needed molds and such can be done for a lot less, but its not for free. Its also very diffucult t break into the market and become profitable. I mean, Nova has built its reputation over a lot of years, to the point where other brands are as good ot better but most of us will still go with a Nova based engine because its done by them. Would you buy an engine done by me? I could copy all the desings in the world, but it doesnt mean that my engines will even run, let alone compete with stablished brands.

Theres a lot more to design than copying what someone else has done. I mean, look at just a few years ago, today's NS12s are far ahead of yesterday's MT12s. And that was done with major R&D. They didnt look at the MT12 and said we will change this here, and that there and it worked. No, the changes were made with years of knowledge and with tons of hours of testing. All this cost money and some companies just dont have it.


IMHO, you are making it sound a lot simpler and cheaper than it is. If were that easy everyone and their brother would be doing it.

I think you misundersood my point.

The idea of these asian manufacturers is not to design and R&D engines but to do what they do best - copycat design.

Anything that it close to the real thing but not that close that it will infringe international copyright laws.

This is obviously not a normal you and me job - its the engine companies that have to take the step up. I repeat - I didn't ask for an engine modification done by A person. I am concentrating on MASS market.

With regards to CNC mills for a few thousand dollars - I was referring to consumer or a small shop lathe connected to a Unix PC. It was simply a reference that these lathes can be bought these days at a very reasonable price - i.e. equipment is not a problematic factor to cut and mill engines.

Today's equipment are more than accurate enough to reproduce an exact working replica - with the size of these RC model motors - its not hard to have it laser scanned in 3D and have the model input inside a CAD program.

The idea was never to compete with Novarossi's line of motors - but to give a high performance, high reliability, ease of tuning modified motors which are (give or take) copies of, say, JP Black lines at a very reasonable price rance of $200-$300.

I'll give you a quick example:

* O.S. .21 VZ-B can be bought for U$185 in HK - this is retail price not wholesale.

* Take a look at the older V01B - still similar price (cheaper) but look at the engine's power and reliability. No question it puts out serious power and super reliability and easy to tune.

* Now look at the JP Black RX 21 P5 of engine, material wise - certain components are slightly different. Scan the JP engine + its components using 3D laser scanner - and have a CAD drawing out of it.

* Tell me O.S. could not make an exact copy of JP's work for the same price as its V01b/VZB line if O.S. use the same material as its V01B/VZB motors.

* O.S. have the tools & skill to do so. It can cut/mill its own engine to whatever way it likes. All it needs are NEW MOULDS - THATS IT.

* NO R&D are needed. O.S. can slightly modify various parts of the engine to make it their own specifications and still it will be legal to sell and have not broken any copyright issues.

* Bring those equipment to China/Taiwan and employ the workers there. Surely the price can only go down?


The O.S. example is just that - an example. I don't recommend them doing so - I prefer the other Asian manufacturer get their act together (i.e. Force engines) and have the slice of the pie.

Since China/Taiwan manufacturer's can't even design their own buggies and copy Kyosho's Inferno instead - why not take this method to their engine line?

Whatever new engine Novarossi produce, they produce something similar that can compete with it.

Sooner than later, Novarossi or JP will be forced to lower their exuberant prices as dollar to performance ratio. As who wants an engine that is probably only 5% better but cost twice as much?

There are several reasons this has not already happened. But other than infringements you are forgetting that even changing the material alters how the engine performs.

Each engine is designed with a certain material and blueprint to obtain the desired effect. If you change anyone of these areas you alter the characteristics of the engine and it probably wouldnt produce the same qualities as the original.

Besides, I dont believe OS are completely interested in out and out race car engines. They have established themselves as one of the best aero engine producers and the car engines is a bonus. Probably the best OS car engine you will find is for the 1:8th Off-Road Buggies simply because they have the same running characteristics as an aero engine.

As for a small workshop cnc machine. I dont think you could pick up a new CNC Machine for under $25000 that would be capable of producing the high quality required for the performance you are talking about.

Interesting point - in that case, if the same materials were to be used in the replica - you won't be looking at more than a U$50 hike in price which is already super generous at 30% extra cost being allowed.

Also, no need to make the engine pretty in terms of JP's anodizing the case and various other touches. Make the inside work - thats all that matters. As for the outside, it has to be clean and professional - just like any typical O.S. engine - standard finish.

With the O.S. example - I said that I didn't want them to change - but it was a simple model example that if a large company like O.S. can do it for the U$200-300 price range - surely the Asian companies are able to accomplish this feat for even less. ;)

I was comparing off-road as an example as well. I am more concerned for the market to be broken in the 1/8th On-road arena as this is where the engines are most expensive.

Hopefully, the 1:8th on-road engine market will be broken very soon. It truely is the best class available. But copying is not the answer. Revolution - Not evolution.

Just take a look at our Palmaris .12 to see what I mean.

When you get the coming STS 21 Buggy engine,you will forget this thread.

I am looking at a replica engine that yields power no more than 5% less than the JP line.

If this article is to be true, the performance difference would be too great and its not a direct competitor to JP themselves.

I'm not saying the STS engine are not good at all - it most likely is a good engine. But the point of the thread is to bring JP performance caliber motors in the U$200-300 range. :)

Looks good Dino. About time a new make was released to take on the off-road world. Lets hope it can do the same as the STS on-road engines.:nod:

Finally, someone to topple the OPS/Nova stronghold on 1:8th Off-Road Racing. You could nearly twist my arm into racing off-road again. Been a long time since I ran one of those (1991).:D

Whats your take on this new law for California regarding banning all 2-stoke engines. Are you guys going to jump on the 4-stroke band wagon or fight for the right to cheap and powerful motors instead of expensive chuggers.

Come on man,this not the real reason. People do believe more cost same as more power. And more cost they will treat it more well.

I can run STS to smoke any expensive modified engine. Why I can but someone can not? When someone can't win,they will start to blame his kit;engine;even radio system. After he change his equipment form this to that,they still believe that using the same equipment with champion's,you are half way there. Finally he buy the most expensive one and know the true problem is all on himself.

Why those champion engine is so expensive? The real reason is they have to sponsor many racers to keep the honor. Personnel expense cost much. It is all about marketing. When your engine win World Champion,would you still want to sell it with reasonable price? Think about it!

Of course I can sign with some great racers. Pay them to promote STS and try to win WORLDS. I can modify engine for them. Also rise the price up from $150 to $250. Is that what you want? I never want STS give me a champion engine to sell mass,I only want STS can supply me a engine which has reasonable and affordable price also competitively power. I have the same pain with you before I work for STS. That was why I stop my programer job to work for STS.(only half income compare to before)

In my opinion,those mfgs are killing themself slowly but they dosen't know. When the prices are higher and higher,many young boys(new blood) would rather play PC or TV GAME than R/C car. Our most competitor are not each other. The biggest competitor is virtual game market. When you hit any wall in PC Game,all that you need to do is.....reset it!cost?NO!

Muahhahahh! Since you work for STS - mind giving us RCTech folks some access to discounted motors?? :D :D :D

Back to your point. STS obviously isn't targetting the upper end of the market. That is the only way to dethrone Novarossi/JP.

You may claim STS can smoke a JP but so far its just your claim. I am not saying you have no skill - you must have very good skill to claim so.

But on the track (forget sponsorship for the time being), it has been proven that JP is the fastest line of factory modified engines and they do give you that extra punch and screaming top end. Don't put in lack of driving skill in the equation. We are comparing engine to engine where driving skill used to control it will be more than ample - i.e. world champion standards.

With winning championships and charging top dollar for the engines thats the model Nova/JP has been adopting but guess what - not many people own a JP due to that high cost.

If I was in this line of business and I am O.S. engine (for example) - I would prefer to sell decent priced modified engines comparable to JP for $200-300 and sell MORE units and in the end, I get considerably more profit due to my greater turnover. In this situation, its a win-win scenario, you win the brand recognition of your engines and you win with the profits it generates.

Screw marketing - if your engine is THAT good and is damn affordable - it doesn't take long at all for word to get around.

Actually with the TV/PC game thing - thats true. My first hobby was nitro RC but because I didn't have a job that could afford running the hobby. My cars became expensive model on a stand. Now I have a decent paying job - I can afford to go back to this fun hobby again. :)

I really have to disagree with you on this. JP were always quick but I dont think they were ever the best modded engine available and it was never actually proven as such (other than a couple of the .21 on-road engines). I believe the late Ron Paris prepped a far better modded engine and so did Mario Rossi.

As for STS. They have a huge following already and have produced some real good engines. Granted they may not be as fast on high end as other modded engines but then again you have to look a little further.

The STS is designed for ultimate torque to get best results around shorter twisty tracks whereas the JP is designed to produce high revs for the larger flowing European tracks. So in the right environment both engines will come into their own.

As for selling engines at $200 - $300 that can compare with the JP or other modded engines, that is already beginning. And you can be assured they are stock out of the box.

Engines.
 

It is very interesting descusion is in here.:nod:
You guys are forgetting the fact in airmodeling and boating hobby. In 1970's Rossi and OPS was dominating and it was realy hard for avarage soviet union guy to buy one of those, but technology was available all over the place. So A lot hobby guy there stop chasing that expencive "mamas" and start making their own. It was long way before that guys proove they are realy good and look it what is happepening now. All champions in all classes in airmodeling are using engines produced in former soviet union. Even world record on control line .15 engine was set on "Irwine special" with all internal parts made in Russia.
All world champions for last years in "pilon" using Russian engines.
So you can name any of hobby beside RC cars and you will see what I am talking about. This is the reason why Rossi offer to one of the best engine desiner from Russia couple years ago to work together, but for some reason he refuse to do so.
In RC cars there is hole, for some reason RC cars isn't popular there and nobody was making any engines for this aplication. But now I activated all possible my connections and friends and we are working on all directions for RC cars.
We are working right now on .21 engine which will be made on the same concept as Palmaris PS12, also PS15 is almost done in design.

the only way that Nova based modifieds such as JP,Collari, M.rossi
prices will go down in price is if another engine manufacturer can
come up with a fast quality engine at a lower price. Ive seen
faster engines than the novabased mods ive mentioned but
haven't seen one that ran as consistent and have the quality
of the novamods out there.

What happened to the Richey engines that were supposed to be available soon?

Denis and RDlogics is working hard at it and both parties don't
want to release an engine that is not up to thier standards. they
are making sure the qc in manufacturing and making sure that
the engine will hold up to torture more than a regular customer
would put it through.

If I have this kind of financial support from any of manufacturer or anybody who will invest some moneyI will have at this point all three sizes and all kind up running.:nod: But I do eveything by my self, so takes 6 weeks to design and build the unit. Which I think is pretty fast.

It is actually very easy to get top end out of the STS D3 and D5 engines by changing their crank timing.

If you compare a STS to a higher revving NR, you'll know exactly why it has no top end.....

My D3 has as much top end than any of my NR based engines, but it still has awesome bottom end.

Re: Modified .21 engines for the cheap - lets disrupt the market >:)
 

Very interesting.
I don't want to say you are not expert in engine's design and manufacturing, but defenetly you have not too much knowlodge in engine design and manufacturing, but I can be wrong.
It is not to just make copy of the mold and let's pump it. It took years to get to the point where we are right now and belive me, if it is that easy, tomorrow it will be hundreds of companies making engines equile to JP, MS, Sirio etc. It is not only cheap labor, also it is years of expirience, years of experiments and developments. You can easy copy cloth or other consumer product, but when it comes to high perfromance devices-it is not working.
I agree with you that $600 for .21 JP or similar is reducilous, but this is free market and demand dictate the price. Also good financial politic and marketing do part of work too.
But to develop piston material and technology how to make it will cost to anybody at list $50-60k and this is almost the heart of engine. Engine isn't that easy device you can easy scan and copy.
Sorry may be I put something realy strong, but just want to try to warn you, if you don't know how the engine work, don't try to waste your money and time-it will be real waste.
Comments?

I don't want to open a can of worms or start arguing. Lets get down to basics.

2 stroke engine contain few parts. The critical parts are:

* engine crankcase
* piston
* sleeve
* crankshaft
* carburettor

Engine modification will only involve those parts - nothing else (forget the heatsink for now).

Have a quick read of the laser scanning machine below and note its accuracy and what institutions make use of it.

There is no need to purchase this equipment - renting it or have someone that owns the equipment to do the scanning job for you is very cost effective.

I will repeat again - O.S. engines has the capability to produce high quality, excellent tolerance engines and the results speak for themselves.

If a V01B can retail for U$185 in HK and this engine has gone through distributors, etc. - how much effort does it take to clone a JP replica?

With their own milling/cutting machine and a CAD drawing with a JP engine in front of their face - you are saying they CAN'T do it?

I DON'T SUGGEST O.S. to perform cloning/copying - I am referring to other engine manufacturer's to do so - i.e. Force engines.

If a company in Japan can succeed, there is no reason a company in China/Taiwan shouldn't.

PLEASE UNDERSTAND: I am not asking for the asian engine manufacturers to go and develop (R&D) their own engine. Do a copy or a similar copy to JP or the like - stellar performance at a very reasonable price ($200-300).

I don't ask them to break copyright laws either - but since they are already notorious to copy other people's products - surely this is just another drop in the bucket for them.

With regards to JP's demand/price figure - tell me if JP can sell $300 Black lines, their demand will not soar.

The reason there is little demand is due to their current pricing strategy.

If a company were able to do that and sell engines that are equal in quality and performance to Novarossis, Novarossi would go out of business, and then who would they copy? Part of the reason Novarossi engines cost so much is like the others said, the development and hours of R&D time.

leave it or live with it ! unless you can make an engine yourself just like our great TG777 ! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

It seems that we cant get into your thick head:) You make it sound way too simple. You cant just build an engine and it will work, you NEED R&D.

But all of these parts are critical to the proper function of the engine. Lets take TopGun's engines. He makes it seem, to any person who doesnt know him too good, like he is just the average hobbiest who built his engine. But he isnt, he has decades of expirience in 2 stroke engine desingn, operation and modifying. He allready has 50% of the equation, the other 50% is manufacturing. (theres adds and money, but we wont get into that).

You are taking these 2 parts of engine production and generalising them, like everybody and their brother could do it tomorrow. You need years of working in any of these 2 areas before you can even think of making any device, let alone an engine.

Like I said in my other post, we dont live in a perfect world.

sure it is simple, see how the people in Flintstones power up their sedan? :batman: :batman:

People - I was referring to current engine manufacturers - NOT you and me or Joe Bloe in the corner. Who the HELL thinks I want to do this???

I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE ASIAN MANUFACTURERS TO START PRODUCING JP LEVEL POWER MOTORS FOR $200-300.

Thats all I am trying to put in this thread. I don't force feed anyone anything.

i.e. O.S. have the knowledge and the equipment to change the market - they just don't want or feel its necesary for them to.

Force makes engines, albeit shoddy and a POS - they do have experience in making engines. They know how to cast a part, make a clay mould, etc. etc.

Dollarwise its definitely possible. Judge the O.S. model I mentioned in the previous post for yourself.

Besides new exotic materials - what is the difference between a V01B and a JP Black P5 - other than design?

You are telling me, if I give Honda a copy of the Ford Cosworth Indy engine blueprint and material specifications - they cannot make an identical working copy with the same characteristics in their workshop?

What does copying means? No/very limited R&D. How long would China had the A-Bomb if someone did not smuggle critical weapons information from the USA?

I don't ask for full fledge 100% copy and rebadge. Anything that does not violate copyright infringement will surely can be very similar to a JP/Nova.

Nitrodude - I think its you are the one with the thick head.

I agree with everything that gonsped has said and he is very good at simplifying the already simple art of making high performance .21 engines.I for one will support you in your efforts as much as I can.

I'm thinking it would be unfair for anyone of us to use your great ideas and take all the credit for them so we will let you go out and get credit for them.So tell me,how many of these Asian manufactures which you call "copiers" have you approached already with your simple but at the same time revolutionary ideas?

Keep us posted because I'm sure a deal is waiting for you around the corner with a top level engine mfg especially if they are lucky enough to read you deep insight and knowledge on how easy it is to produce h-performance engines. :deathstar

dont call it a copy if they dont look identical you punk ! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Let me ask you something....Have you ever worked in a Manufacturing plant? Let me ask you one more thing... Have you ever worked in a Top Notch Manufacturing plant? Top Level Production comes from Top level employees who have a sence of pride in the work they do. Anyone can copy a design and produce a Great prototype to an exsisting design but all it takes is one flaw one disgrutled or untrained person to blow an entire production run. Building a state of the art Motor is easier for one well trained person to do then to make a production line work.Mass Building meeting a production speed record doesn't win races. You have to hire well trained people who require more money and more time to make sure every single part produced is exactly to specs which takes more expensive material and tools to complete the job.I don't Buy the Most expensive anything and try not to buy the least expensive either but I do Shop around and have been bitten more then once on a less expensive as well as a more expensive unproven item. I Have an STS D3 and i think it is fast and I know they have copied a design and i know that they are cheaper in comparison to the motor they copied. Is it as good a motor? I would have to spend the money and see if the motor they copied failed too. Would The other motor mfg. respond to that failure as well as STS? I Highly doubt it, Same as Ford Cosworth. You Blow one of their motors its racing, you blow a knockoff.....Probably racing too but it might have been due to a production problem.

In Saying all of this i'm not putting anyone down.
I think .21 motors are very expensive but alot is demanded of them as well. In Making Parts that require small tooling costs go up as everything has to be exact and tools wear very quickly in exact applications.When tools are made cheaper it is because labor and or materials are cheaper.Why are they cheaper? Lesser trained people or cheaper materials..... If you want a Top Notch Motor That performs Top Notch from the start to the end but don't want to pay Dollars outta the pocket Learn all there is to know about them and build it yourself:lol: and you will know the high cost of tooling.Advanced Motors come from Advanced thinking not advanced copy machines. The simple fact is that no matter where it is built the more advanced the more it costs.:flaming:

2 stroke engine contain few parts. The critical parts are:

* engine crankcase
* piston
* sleeve
* crankshaft
* carburettor

Now let's not forget the pullstart!:cool:

:ha: :ha: :ha:

I reckon if O.S. were to build an engine with 5% less horsepower than a JP, guess what? - they'd price it at maybe 15% less than a JP.
They wouldn't be giving them away.

But yeah, it's good to see the conrod isn't a critical part, or the bushings, or the gudgeon pin, or the bearings, or the needles, or the . . . you get the idea. ;)

I don't see how the sts would be considered a copy of the
novarossi besides the fact that it is a .12 the timing is different
and the inside casing isn't the same as the nova. the dimensions
on most engines are going to be pretty close to each other
just because it is going on the same car and the current racing
rules will dictate how a lot of the design will turn out.

:weird: :weird: :weird:
Not you are little bit not correct, not all 12 engines has the same dimentions.:nod:

he didnt say "Same dimension" :confused:

Sorry, my bad.:D
I was meaning on my engine they are far away from to be even close. Shaft lenght ( inside) height, width etc. realy far way, but in the mean time it took for me 5 minuts to drop on my son's MTX3. I don't say I did in purpose different dimentions, but during the design everything came up differently from existing designs.:nod:
So we spent some time to be able to fit in existing cars and save our calculations.

This is a very interesting Thread and I wish to give my 2 cents in.
I do agree 100% on what Taylor-Racing just mentioned which I must say is the Bottom Line of it all!

I salute and support gonsped idea because I submit to the fact that .21 On-Road Motors moreso modified ones like JPs, Collaris, M. Rossis alike are getting more and more rediculously priced. But we all have to realize that this is all part of business and BIG Business, it is. At the present time, no one is able to match their quality and performance and also at the same time able to put it in Mass Production and that is why they controll that part of the market and therefore dictate their price. And I bet, that whoever will be able to follow suit (whether in the form of copying or any other form) in matching the performance and quality AND be able to put it in mass production, will not charge that much less than what above mentioned manufacturers charges now. Because if people start catering to their business, they wouldn't be going into this or any other good business, for that matter, if they wouldn't choose to make more money. And that is what it is all about .... "making more and more of them".

We should be thankful that we have these aray of motors to choose from and it would just be up to the consumers to make that choice.

There is no reason you couldnt mass produce a "modified engine" A good cnc programmer could copy anything they do to the engines. I know Thunder tiger did just that when they redid there .12. They had several guys modifiy their engine and just sent it overseas to be copied.