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Old 07-31-2008, 03:33 PM   #1
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Default Tungsten Disulfide engine pre breakin Lubricant

Tungsten Disulfide (WS2) is one of the most lubricous materials known to science. With Coefficient of Friction at 0.03, it offers excellent dry lubricity unmatched to any other substance. It can also be used in high temperature and high pressure applications. It offers temperature resistance from -450 deg F (-270 deg C) to 1200 deg F (650 deg C) in normal atmosphere and from -305 deg F (-188 deg C) to 2400 deg F (1316 deg C) in Vacuum. Load bearing property of coated film is extremely high at 300,000 psi.

Does a Nitro engine have the tolerences for a .4 to .5 micron layer? Has anyone had any experience with using it? It works well on bearings and other moving parts. Has anyone had any eperience using WS2 on Nitro engines?
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Old 07-31-2008, 03:38 PM   #2
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The real question is whether the caustinc nature of the achohol/nitromethane fuel that we use will disolve it out of the engine. Is this a plating or hard coating process or a lubricant?
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Old 07-31-2008, 03:43 PM   #3
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That is not a problem because WS2 is completly inert material.

Chemical Durability: Inert Substance, Non-Toxic
Magnetism: Non-Magnetic
Rockwell Hardness: 30 HRc
Coating Film Thickness: up to 0.5 micron depending on application
Corrosion Stability: Can slow down the corrosion rate, but can not fully prevent substrate corrosion
Coatable Substrates: Iron, Steel, Aluminum, Copper, other Metals, Plastics and Manmade Solids (ceramics)
Compatibility: Oil, Solvent, Paint, Fuel, Water
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Old 07-31-2008, 03:57 PM   #4
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The real question is whether the caustinc nature of the achohol/nitromethane fuel that we use will disolve it out of the engine. Is this a plating or hard coating process or a lubricant?
Sorry forgot to answer your question. There has been success with hard plating, but for my purposes I do not have the equipment for that process. Generally the material fills the micro fishers located in all serfaces and fills thos serfaces. A 120psi pressure can be used to apply the powder directly to the substrait. But new success has been found by a longer process of vibration. The powder and the small parts being bonded to can be placed in a bowl and vibrated for 24 hrs. The powder will bond to the metel surface. It is offten added to wet lubricats to improve their lubrication capabilities. Oils and greases are now frequently found with this additive. A better known down graded product is Molybdenum Disulfide which is in most of the synthetic auto oils and greases. They have similair qualities, but the WS2 material is superior but more expensive.
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Old 08-01-2008, 08:48 AM   #5
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Although I have not found a reason, It is said not to add the material to a fuel oil mixture for coating purposes. But all the coating people say they add the coating to normal 2 stroke engine parts once cleaned and dry. The outer film will eventually wear away, but since the product is less than a micron it is able to fill all the micro fishers in the substrate and continue to offer friction reduction. A perfesional coating company offered their out board engine 2 stroke test results to me and the apparent improvements. The engine ran noticably cooler. They were able to reduce the fuel and oil needed for combustion and lubrication. This also caused an increase in horse power. After 100 hours of use the engine was again disasembled and inspected for damage. Since there was none, and even less than during a normal breaking period for the engine. The engine was then reasembled and tested. Because of the reduced friction the 2 stoke engine became more efficient. Combustion was cleaner with less residual carbon. This was attributed to the lower oil requirements. This also allowed the 2 stroke to meet 4 stroke emmission standards for the industry. The fuel consumption was reduced, hourly burn rate tested from a fuel flow meter. The identical motor was tested side by side without the coating as a controle. The two engines although identical in construction acted completly different. This is why I bring this question to the forum. I am going to test on an older engine that has had several gallons run thru it. The sleeve has been pinched, but looking at it and the piston with magnification, I see small scares that my identical new motor does not have. If this product works my concern is that I will need to reduce the head size to achieve operating engine temps and any temp reading will be only used to try and get the engine over 200F. I have setup a small tumblar with the powder sealed inside. All the moving parts of the car will be coated. The engine will have the sleeve, Piston, con rod, piston pin etc. I am leaving out the crank, because I believe adiquate friction reduction is made from the bearings. I will give it a try and report my results. I was going to use this engine as a backup anyway, so if I need to toss it, so be it. I will see if this dry coating will improve performance. I believe low speed idle will be a problem just like the out board reported. The large 2 stroke test reported the engine idled really high following the addition of the coating. They had a computer controled fuel injector, so it was only a small adjustment for them.
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Old 08-02-2008, 03:33 PM   #6
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I would not add any additional lubrication to an engine till its broken in... You need to lap the piston into the liner to get a good low friction seal... Using too much lubrication will prevent the piston from properly fitting itself into the sleeve, which is one of the most critical aspects of engine performance...... Once the piston has been properly lapped into the sleeve then I could definitely see the benefit of a special coating..... When I break in customers engines I avoid fuels that have too good of lubricants ( OD fuel ), as it makes break in take forever and puts much more stress on the internals... for break in I use cheap RTR fuel like HPI, which reduces break in time and internal stress, then once the motors is broken in I switch to quality fuels like OD... All my engines also have exceptionally long piston lives using this method.....
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Old 08-05-2008, 09:07 AM   #7
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Not being sure of the science, is why I am posing the question. But this is my thought process, and please correct me. Brass sleeve and Aluminum piston. The tight fit between the two is where the engine compression comes from, then comes power, bla bla bla this we are familure with. The two materials I believed are used for specific reasons. 1st, Brass and Al have different Coefficients of Thermal Expansion from room temprature to 250F Brass depending on the alloy mix has an expansion Cf of 9 to 10.3. Al on the other hand is higher at 11.7 to 13.7 depending on the Al alloy. So it would be expected that the Al Piston expands faster than the Brass sleeve. Both materials are fairly soft. So as long as the engine reaches std operating temprature the compression from the piston into the sleeve will cause the tight lap to occur. So it would seem, that the important portion of this process is to get to operating tempratures as fast as possible to help create this lap. I thought the heating/expansion and cooling/contracting process is why the heat cycle method worked so well for break in. However, during the process of getting the engine up to temp, is when the highest stresses are being placed on the engine parts. So in a way using less friction reducing oils could allow the engine to heatup faster, thus reducing the time the engine is operating at the stress causing low tempratures. But if the friction is not constant in the shearing friction in a new sleeve and piston, then hotspots would be created in those areas. Thus causing those areas to expand at a different rate than the rest of the sleeve and piston. My view is if I could reduce the friction during break-in, and use alternative methods to get the engine up to the 200F temp rapidly, than less stresses will be placed on the parts and the expansion process would be more uniform and even. These are toy engines, but there a period when you own the engine, when it is easy to tune and runs great. I would really like to lengthen this period. This is just a premis and if I am operating under false assumptions, I would like to know prior to distroying a backup mill.
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Old 08-05-2008, 09:15 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Relay8039 View Post
Not being sure of the science, is why I am posing the question. But this is my thought process, and please correct me. Brass sleeve and Aluminum piston. The tight fit between the two is where the engine compression comes from, then comes power, bla bla bla this we are familure with. The two materials I believed are used for specific reasons. 1st, Brass and Al have different Coefficients of Thermal Expansion from room temprature to 250F Brass depending on the alloy mix has an expansion Cf of 9 to 10.3. Al on the other hand is higher at 11.7 to 13.7 depending on the Al alloy. So it would be expected that the Al Piston expands faster than the Brass sleeve. Both materials are fairly soft. So as long as the engine reaches std operating temprature the compression from the piston into the sleeve will cause the tight lap to occur. So it would seem, that the important portion of this process is to get to operating tempratures as fast as possible to help create this lap. I thought the heating/expansion and cooling/contracting process is why the heat cycle method worked so well for break in. However, during the process of getting the engine up to temp, is when the highest stresses are being placed on the engine parts. So in a way using less friction reducing oils could allow the engine to heatup faster, thus reducing the time the engine is operating at the stress causing low tempratures. But if the friction is not constant in the shearing friction in a new sleeve and piston, then hotspots would be created in those areas. Thus causing those areas to expand at a different rate than the rest of the sleeve and piston. My view is if I could reduce the friction during break-in, and use alternative methods to get the engine up to the 200F temp rapidly, than less stresses will be placed on the parts and the expansion process would be more uniform and even. These are toy engines, but there a period when you own the engine, when it is easy to tune and runs great. I would really like to lengthen this period. This is just a premis and if I am operating under false assumptions, I would like to know prior to distroying a backup mill.


Where can I but this and under what brand?
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Old 08-05-2008, 08:24 PM   #9
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There are various suppliers. Most only supply the products for industrial use. I believe the lowest amount you can b]purchase is one lbs. This is generally called a sample bag. Science lab supply places can also order it for you. A company I work with bought several lbs to test air pumps life. I told them I would like to test with some home projects so the shop manager gave me a lb. If you surch for dry coating lubricants or for the product name several suppliers show up on google. There might be a few people that sell it in arosals, or in greese or oil products, but Tungsten Disulfide is considered a raw material, and is not sold directly to the retail market. Some ammunition reloading companies may sell it. They call it Danzac coating powder. If you really want some to test with I could try and track down some from my companies supplier. Do not know the cost, but because its qualities I am sure it can be mailed.

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Old 12-21-2010, 11:05 AM   #10
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We supply 99.9% pure Tungsten Disulfide powder throughout the U.S. and Internationally, at prices lower than you can find anywhere else, available in several sizes including 1oz., 2oz., 4oz., 1LB, 5LB, 10LB, and 55LB.

We also have it available in a grease, oil, and spray can. We are located in Southern California.

Just search for ReelSchematic, or Pur-Tungsten
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Old 12-22-2010, 03:34 PM   #11
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We supply 99.9% pure Tungsten Disulfide powder throughout the U.S. and Internationally, at prices lower than you can find anywhere else, available in several sizes including 1oz., 2oz., 4oz., 1LB, 5LB, 10LB, and 55LB.

We also have it available in a grease, oil, and spray can. We are located in Southern California.

Just search for ReelSchematic, or Pur-Tungsten
What would be the recommended way (process?) to apply or use this in our engines?

can we just add it to our fuel? does it has to be electroplated? vibraion submerged like said above? whats the deal?

xe
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Old 12-23-2010, 09:17 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reelschematic View Post
We supply 99.9% pure Tungsten Disulfide powder throughout the U.S. and Internationally, at prices lower than you can find anywhere else, available in several sizes including 1oz., 2oz., 4oz., 1LB, 5LB, 10LB, and 55LB.

We also have it available in a grease, oil, and spray can. We are located in Southern California.

Just search for ReelSchematic, or Pur-Tungsten

I read on your website that your motor oil is not suitable for two stroke engines. Have you any experience or feedback from someone that used ws2 to lubricate such engines? How does it behave in the combustion process?

Thanks
Giorgio from Italy
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Old 12-28-2010, 09:40 AM   #13
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What would be the recommended way (process?) to apply or use this in our engines?

can we just add it to our fuel? does it has to be electroplated? vibraion submerged like said above? whats the deal?

xe
There are a few different ways that Pur-Tungsten™ powder can be used effectively, depending on the application that you are using it for. No, you can’t just throw the powder at the parts and hope it sticks

How To Apply Pur-Tungsten PowderTungsten Disulfide is extremely lubricious. It does not stick to anything easily and has to be forcefully applied to a substrate to stick. Maximum film thickness possible is 0.5 micron (0.00002″ or 0.02 thou), as one particle of WS2 does not stick to another particle of WS2. But single layer of WS2 particles is enough to provide excellent long lasting lubricity. Mentioned below are few methods which have worked:

Spray Blasting Correct Method is:
Spray Blasting This is most acceptable and proven method. This should be done in enclosed area such as sand blasting unit where powder dust can be contained.
1.Clean and degrease the part. Cleaner the part, better the coating adhesion.
2.Sand blast the part with 5 micron Alumina (Aluminum Oxide) powder. Only light blasting is necessary.
3.Thoroughly clean the part with soft cloth/tissue and completely remove Alumina dust from the part.
4.Sand Blast the part with WS2 powder @ 120 psi with clean and cold pneumatic air. Spray coat the part till color changes to silver gray.
5.Lightly dust off WS2 powder dust with clean soft cloth/tissue.

Blasting with Alumina and WS2 should be done in different sand blasting units. If you have a blasting unit with powder recovery system, you can reuse WS2 powder. Make sure you have fine filters on these units.

Buffing Correct Method is:
Buffing the part with WS2/Alcohol paste This method too works but takes time and is laborious.
Speed and friction determine how effectively the material bonds to the part. The greater the speed and the pressure of application, the greater the bond. For best results use a power tool. A buffing wheel, Dremel tool or even a hone can be used.

1.Clean and degrease the part.
2.Mix WS2 powder with Isopropyl (also know as Industrial) Alcohol to make paste.
3.Apply the paste on part and also on cotton buffing wheel and let it dry.
4.When paste is dry start buffing the part with buffing wheel.
5.Continue buffing/Honing till a silver gray coating is seen.

Tumbling Correct Method is:
By Tumbling/Vibratory bowl coating This method is ideal for bullets and other small parts.
Speed and friction determine how effectively the material bonds to the part. The greater the speed and the pressure of application, the greater the bond. For best results use a power tool. A buffing wheel, Dremel tool or even a hone can be used.

1.Clean and degrease the part.
2.Take 5-6 small empty plastic bottles (empty aspirin bottles will do). Put few parts in the bottle and fill the bottle (up to 75%) with WS2 powder. Fill all bottles likewise.
3.Put the bottles in vibratory bowl/tumbler with sand or vibratory media.
4.Vibrate/Tumble for 4-5 hours.
5.Empty the bottles (you can reuse WS2) and wipe clean the parts with soft tissue/cloth.
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Old 12-28-2010, 09:47 AM   #14
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I read on your website that your motor oil is not suitable for two stroke engines. Have you any experience or feedback from someone that used ws2 to lubricate such engines? How does it behave in the combustion process?

Thanks
Giorgio from Italy
I have not had any customer feedback as to how it would behave in a fuel/oil mixture.
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Old 12-28-2010, 09:50 AM   #15
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What would be the recommended way (process?) to apply or use this in our engines?

can we just add it to our fuel? does it has to be electroplated? vibraion submerged like said above? whats the deal?

xe
Pur-Tungsten Powder can be mixed with synthetic oil at a ratio of about 1% or about 1 tablespoon per 5 quarts oil. Our results show the mixed protective film makes the tungsten disulfide motor oil display excellent antiwear, antifriction and extreme pressure properties, and this kind of motor oil can reduce the exhaust emission and oil wastage, enhance the fuel economy and improve the environment, so it is a kind of environment-protective and energy-saving motor oil.
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