R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Nitro On-Road > Onroad Nitro Engine Zone

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-10-2006, 08:45 AM   #601
Tech Adept
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 174
Default

The CRF engine are EFRA legal !
WorldCup2004 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2006, 09:25 AM   #602
Tech Master
 
ziggy12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: West Midlands, UK
Posts: 1,596
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by M7H
Ziggy, is your engine EFRA legal?
I asked if the CRF is EFRA and BRCA legal and Team Orion confirmed it is. I asked how this could be when the hole in the crank is more than 7mm but no response. They are using them at national level here and in Europe so guess they are legal.

I run mine on 25% Nitro as it didnt like 16% but not at nationals.
__________________
Dedicated RC Car Speed Site

http://www.fast-rc.co.uk/forum/index.php

Sponsored by:
Norfolk and Chance
ziggy12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2006, 09:27 AM   #603
teo
Tech Initiate
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Norway
Posts: 35
Default

Hello!

I've had the Wasp engine for about a month now but have not been able to get it to really perform.

The problem is that for it to perform good the temps goes through the roof. (150 degrees C). When it's tuned for about 100-120 it just does not have much power at all.

My setup:
Car: MTX4 - original clutch
Pipe: Max 2615 (Anyone tried the Wasp with this?)
Fuel: Tornado 16%
Shims: Original 0.3mm (I have tried removing .1 but no better)

I haven't tested it for a few weeks now, but decided to give it a shot again a few days ago. Then I used an entire day adjusting engine and clutch. Every time the engine came to life the temp was way to high and it started eating plugs.

Could it be that the clutch engages to early so that the engine overheates? So that the only solution is to wait for the Orion clutch set?
Or could it be my pipe?

Any help is appreciated!
teo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2006, 09:39 AM   #604
Tech Master
 
ziggy12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: West Midlands, UK
Posts: 1,596
Default

First check your temp gun, make sure its reading right as I had the same problem on another engine.

Next go to 25% as mine doesnt like 16%
Remove 0.1mm shim from head
Lighten the clutch shoes
Increase clutch spring.

If that is still no good remove 0.1mm more shims and try another pipe

Cheers
__________________
Dedicated RC Car Speed Site

http://www.fast-rc.co.uk/forum/index.php

Sponsored by:
Norfolk and Chance
ziggy12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2006, 09:52 AM   #605
teo
Tech Initiate
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Norway
Posts: 35
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy12345
First check your temp gun, make sure its reading right as I had the same problem on another engine.

Next go to 25% as mine doesnt like 16%
Remove 0.1mm shim from head
Lighten the clutch shoes
Increase clutch spring.

If that is still no good remove 0.1mm more shims and try another pipe

Cheers
Thanks for the tips.
Actually I was not using a temp gun, I used the "spit on the head" method Not really a scientific method but I atleast tells me if I'm way high (sizzling ).
Regarding fuel, I'm pretty much forced to run 16% due to rules. But I'll look into the clutch and shimming, hopefully I will get a Orion clutch set soon to test.
Anyone tested that on a mtx4 clutch yet?
teo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2006, 10:05 AM   #606
Tech Master
 
SCUBA STEVE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,850
Trader Rating: 86 (99%+)
Default

Teo, I have had the same problem and I was using a temp gun, I've been racing a long time and can't really get this engine figured out. When it runs it does'nt have much power and won't even make a 5 minute heat, of course it is to rich ....lean it to make time running (about 250 degrees) and 5 minutes into the main it stalled and seized up!....I broke the flywheel free with a screw driver and replaced the blown plug and it will not start...guess I'm going to have to open it up and see what happened ....oh yea, I have a pit box full of blown plugs to.
SCUBA STEVE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2006, 03:32 PM   #607
Tech Rookie
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Hamburg/Germany
Posts: 2
Default

Hello,

for use with 16% Nitro remove the 0,1 Shim and use a OS 6 Plug. Novarossi plug´s kills in 5min.

I run a RD Logics Turbo II Pipe the engine run´s at 110° Celsius

The original spring from the MTX 4 is to soft for the WASP use a stronger one or make a test with only 2 weight´s.

I hope i get the next week the CRF Clutch and Pipe.......


greets Markus
Dongiganti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2006, 04:37 PM   #608
Moderator
 
mxwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Victorville, CA USA
Posts: 429
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Let me try and dispell some of the mystery surrounding this engine.

First, it is no secret that this engine doesnt have alot of low rpm power. It has been talked about alot in this thread how the engine has a high rpm power band and that changes in the way you set up your clutch, 2-speed and gearing is required to utilize the power that is produced by this engine.

If you try and use the same gearing and clutch settings that you previously used with your Nova based engines then you will definitely be dissapointed in the power delivery of the Orion engine.

When geared and clutched properly this engine has alot of power and is a potent racing engine. I have been using this engine for 6 weeks now almost every weekend and have found it to be very competitive on every track I have been to from the tiny Revelation raceway, to the medium Crystal Park, to the hugely enormous Rams track at Mission College in Santa Clara, CA.

I have found several great setups for this engine and I would like to share them with you guys, and hopefully you can share some of the same good results.

Orion CRF engine w/2601 novarossi pipe and med conical header
Good for long flowing tracks with lots of long straights (Rams for example)
This lets the engine really spin up and gives great power mostly on top end
The clutch was set up to engage around 28,000rpm and the gearing I used was (RRR) 17/61 1st and 22/55 2nd w/ tire dia. 61/59
The clutch I used was the orion weights with 2 set screws in each weight, and Orion spring set at 1.6mm preload. I used the Kyosho grey shoe with this set up. My clutch gap was set to .6mm

Orion CRF engine w/Skyline VR12 Plus pipe and header
Good for short tracks with tight corners
I had very good power off corners with this set up and still had alot of revs on top
The clutch was set to engage around 29,000 rpm and the gearing I used was (RRR) 16/60 1st and 22/56 2nd w/ tire dia. 59/57
I used the same clutch setting as before only I used the Orion spring set at 1.7mm preload. Clutch bell gap set to .6mm. I used the orion shoe at this track for a bit of more progressive clutch engagement out of the corners.

Orion CRF engine w/Orion CRF 2626 pipe and header
Good all around set up, good power off corners and decent top speed. But this setting would be better with -5mm header
Clutch setup was again set to 28,000 rpm and the gearing I used was (RRR) 16/59 1st and 22/55 2nd w/tire dia 60/58
I used the std Kyosho white weights and Evolva Red spring set to 2.2mm preload with grey shoe and also used the Orion clutch setup with Orion weights w/2 set screws in each weight, Orion spring set to 1.65mm and Orion shoe. Clutch gap set to .5-.6mm. Both clutch settings worked well, but I thought the Orion shoe had a little bit more slip initially than the Kyosho grey shoe which seemed to have a bit more initial grab.

The std settings I always start with for the carb of this engine are:
LSN 4 1/4
HSN 6
Nozzle turned in all the way tight then backed out 1/2 turn

These settings always seem to be pretty close, but I usually end up leaning the bottom a bit and also leaning the top to suit(slightly)

To set the low speed needle, you must set the HSN first on the track. The 4 1/4 LSN setting should be close enough to get you going pretty good, definitely good enough to set the HSN. For the HSN setting, run the car for 3-4 min before attempting to set the needle, because this engine takes a while to heat soak (due to all the crankcase fins I imagine) Afterthe engine is up to full operating temp, set the HSN progressively leaner to achieve good top speed. (make small adjustments at a time and sneak up on a good setting) Once top speed is achieved, I recommend richening 1-2 hrs for safety. You will know you are too lean if the engine seems to get a bit slower after 3-4 min of running at high speed (this will be an indicator that the engine is overheating a bit and the engine should be richened 1-2 hrs at a time until the high speed running stays consistant.

I also use the spit test to determine engine temp, as I never have great luck with temp guns. Spit always boils at the same temp so I know this is reliable. It the spit doesn't sizzle slowly, then the temp is to low or cold, it the spit dances off the head and won't stay at all then the engine is too hot. The temp is just right when the spit will stick to the head but will sizzle for 1/2 to 1 second. This should be around 230-250 deg. F.

To set the LSN I used two methods at the same time. First set the idle to a good steady speed, then listen to the engine and try and find the smoothest LSN adjustment. Then do the pinch test to the fuel line, as far away from the carb as you can (depending on the length of your fuel line-some fuel lines are rediculously long, so try to pinch the fuel line 2-3 inched from the carb. If the idle increases that indicates that the LSN is to rich (engine is getting to much fuel and is idling slower than if it was correct setting), if the idle speed imediately decreases and the engine stalls then the LSN is to lean (engine is starving for fuel), if the engine idles for 1-2 sec without changing idle speed then starts to stall that is very close to perfect LSN setting. Next check for throttle response. The engine should pick up rpm with no lag whatsoever, and return back to steady idle immediately, with out hanging at high idle. If the engine idle is unsteady, then I would suspect a leaky backplate, carb fuel fitting, carb body o-ring, crankcase o-ring, or front bearing. If the engine hold high idle when returning from high speed running then I suspect that the HSN needle is too lean or the engine has an air leak somewhere in the above mentioned places.

It is also a good practice to look at the combustion chamber regularly to see the condition of the engines combustion process. The combustion chamber should be light tan to brown as well as the top of the piston should be the same light brown, but also should appear a bit wet with oil residue. This will indicate a good tune. Also the glow plug should appear light tan arround the base of the plug outer ring, but the element should show no distortion and should appear slightly white to shiny silver. If the element is very dusty white looking or shows very small cracks or lines (use magnafying glass) then the plug has been overheated and should be replaced as it will fail soon. If the temps are good and the combustion chamber looks good but the plug is dust white then the next colder plug should be used.

I have also found that the optional Orion carb venturi that is more gently tapered helps to lean out the Mid speed slightly, offering better throttle response.

So in conclusion, with the proper approach to set up and settings this engine is definitely capable of running with the best engines out there. I hope this bit of info helps you with your own set up. If you continue to have trouble with this engine, please feel free to PM me and I will help in any way I can to make sure you are getting the best out of your CRF engine.

BK
__________________
Brian Kinney
TLR Design Engineer
2016 Sponsors: Team Losi Racing, AKA Tires, Orion, Nitrotane, Horizon Hobbies, Fast RC Paint.
mxwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2006, 10:04 PM   #609
Tech Adept
 
Schrijver99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Near Serpent (grrrr)
Posts: 247
Default


That's what i call some good information.
THX
Schrijver99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2006, 09:02 AM   #610
afm
Tech Master
 
afm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: lima-peru
Posts: 1,807
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mxwrench
Let me try and dispell some of the mystery surrounding this engine................

I have found that the optional Orion carb venturi that is more gently tapered helps to lean out the Mid speed slightly, offering better throttle response..................

..................please feel free to PM me and I will help in any way I can to make sure you are getting the best out of your CRF engine.

BK
Have you tried the different optional carb needle options offered for this engine???
What is the theoretical purpose of each different set??

Thanks
AFM
afm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2006, 09:30 AM   #611
Moderator
 
mxwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Victorville, CA USA
Posts: 429
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by afm
Have you tried the different optional carb needle options offered for this engine???
What is the theoretical purpose of each different set??

Thanks
AFM
I have not tested the optional needles as of yet. I am awaiting their release from Orion.

I expect that their purpose is to allow the ability to move the adj. range of the low speed needle around, due to the different dia. and taper angles of the optional needles. I think this is a really great idea and it will surely be nice to have this option to change the behavior of the low speed mixture.

Motorcycle carbs have the same adj. ability and it has always been crucial to have this adj. available.

The LSN actually has 2 functions. It controls the idle mixture (obviously) by controlling the taper position in relation to the spray nozzle. But the second function of the LSN is to control the relationship of fuel entering the venturi as the slide is lifted off it's seat. So the taper of the needle controls the mixture from 1/16 - 1/3 throttle approximately. This is the throttle opening area that is altered to adjust throttle response, and it can be very effective in tuning for top performance.

BK
__________________
Brian Kinney
TLR Design Engineer
2016 Sponsors: Team Losi Racing, AKA Tires, Orion, Nitrotane, Horizon Hobbies, Fast RC Paint.
mxwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2006, 10:39 AM   #612
afm
Tech Master
 
afm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: lima-peru
Posts: 1,807
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mxwrench
I have not tested the optional needles as of yet. I am awaiting their release from Orion.

I expect that their purpose is to allow the ability to move the adj. range of the low speed needle around, due to the different dia. and taper angles of the optional needles. I think this is a really great idea and it will surely be nice to have this option to change the behavior of the low speed mixture.

Motorcycle carbs have the same adj. ability and it has always been crucial to have this adj. available.

The LSN actually has 2 functions. It controls the idle mixture (obviously) by controlling the taper position in relation to the spray nozzle. But the second function of the LSN is to control the relationship of fuel entering the venturi as the slide is lifted off it's seat. So the taper of the needle controls the mixture from 1/16 - 1/3 throttle approximately. This is the throttle opening area that is altered to adjust throttle response, and it can be very effective in tuning for top performance.

BK
Thanks a lot BK....clear as water...they should definetively be a must to have to alter power curve of engine around low and mid range zone.....

AFM
afm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2006, 01:25 PM   #613
Tech Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Singapore
Posts: 598
Trader Rating: 3 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to barry Send a message via Skype™ to barry
Default

Finally,i got the engine dialled.I was impressed with the power of the WASP engine especially the low end as ive heard that this engine has low bottom end power.With a proper clucth set up and pipe the engine has a powerful low end which can match any modified engine.I found out the low end is stronger than my 5port OS TZ except the WASP engine rev alot faster to top speed.This engine has insane power from bottom to top end,it makes my G4 wheel spinned a few times coming out of corner and i have to adjust the original two speed setting of the TZ to engaged later as it rev up much faster.Below is my current setting of the engine,hope it might help some of u guys-

1.Using Nova 2601 pipe but decreased the muffler tip length to 11.5mm (original length was 16.5mm) to get more punchy low end.

2.Can also use Sirio Evo 3 tuned pipe but dont have to shorten the muffler tip.The original length is good enough.

3.Using G4 1.8(hardest) yellow clucth spring and tighten the clucth nut to 1mm instead of 0.7mm for my OS TZ.(i believe a 1.9 clucth spring would be better but Team Magic doesnt produce one).End play set at 0.3 to 0.5mm.

4.Currently using 25% O'Donell fuel with 5.5turn of the HSN and 4turn of the LSN.Temp is about 110 to 120 degree.(havent remove the 0.1 shim yet but might try soon)

MXWRENCH,thanks for the infos,it helps alot.
barry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2006, 08:19 PM   #614
Tech Master
 
impalabob64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: florida
Posts: 1,464
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to impalabob64
Default 301 RAceway MD

I ran mine Rev12 at the region 2 at 301, ran 40% nito my temps with 40 198 to 220 runtime 5min30sec speed balistic. Car G4s ,pipe novarossi 2630 gearing 18/51 23/46 car was still pulling at the end of the straight.
__________________
RoninRc.com
MurnanModifiedMotors
Basher BT-4
impalabob64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2006, 01:11 AM   #615
Tech Master
 
ziggy12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: West Midlands, UK
Posts: 1,596
Default

I think most people cant get used to the high revs the engine has to get to before engaging the clutch. It sounds weird but works!!
__________________
Dedicated RC Car Speed Site

http://www.fast-rc.co.uk/forum/index.php

Sponsored by:
Norfolk and Chance
ziggy12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Team Orion Wasp REV Nicolas Onroad Nitro Engine Zone 183 10-05-2006 09:04 AM
team orion wasp rev MAVICXXX Malaysian R/C Racers 31 09-19-2006 09:18 PM
Team Orion - Wasp!! BundyMan Onroad Nitro Engine Zone 1 03-03-2006 03:10 AM
Orion Element 19t Dyno results rinkrat99 Electric On-Road 7 10-09-2005 07:29 PM
Team Orion Wasp .12 HaLo_UsMc R/C Items: For Sale/Trade 6 03-16-2005 07:31 PM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 04:15 PM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net