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Old 06-14-2006, 07:07 AM   #376
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B4
Hey Tom,
All good points, I was quoted $570 AU for this motor today and a waiting time of four weeks from Frontline Hobbies. Just how much do the shops / distributors want to screw us. There is no way they can sell this motor for $265 USD from a shop I know has it in the States and then charge what they do here.

Now like you said possibly a pipe / clutch is needed to get the best out of the package, but if you look a Moorebank as an example at how many different motors are run and I think the majority use the Mugen pipe and the kit supplied clutch.
The list price for the motor is A$425. If you can't get it for that price then let me know and I'll sort you out. Even I missed out on one of the first batch to arrive in Aus. You'll probably find that there is nil stock in the US as well (anyone can correct me if I'm wrong).

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Old 06-14-2006, 07:16 AM   #377
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Rainer, this engine is not in Alpha status, it's an engine which has been thouroughly tested for over 1 year. You can't expect us to be able or have time to test each pipe and header available on the market today. We tested many and some of the pipes already out there work good enough to race the engine even though they might not be the best. You can't have just one pipe in your pitbox and expect it to work with this engine. I have tested pipes which make this engine crawl, others that work ok and others that make it fly. Ours are guaranteed to give 100% satisfaction, use others and you are taking chances.

There is absolutely no problem with the bottom end, with the proper setup this engine will drive away from any other engine from standing still. If your engine bogs, then you are either running a clutch which engages too early or a pipe that does not suit the motor. The stiffness of the spring and the gap between the clutch bell and the shoe are both important. Also remember that when you tighten a spring, the pressure increases exponentially. If you screw the spring adjust nut 2mm versus 1mm you will have a lot more than 2 times the pressure. By tightening a spring too much you reach a point where it does not fill it's spring function anymore so if you tighten a softer spring it's not the same as using a stiffer spring from the start. The CRF spring is made with unique square wire because it's the only way to make a spring that is stiffer and still fits inside a clutch. There is not enough room for a spring made with thicker round wire.

2-stroke motors have a certain rpm range that they are designed to work in, if you clutch engages too early you are out of the optimal range for the engine and it bogs because it is not developping enough power and torque to move the car forward. You need your clutch to engage when the engine has reached it's optimal rpm range which is higher in the case of the CRF engine. Check this dyno graph of a CRF Wasp vs a Nova LL3, you can see clearly that the CRF engine develops it's power later, meaning that the clutch has to engage roughly 5000rpm later. Obviously most clutches in their original form are not designed for this.
The only one which gets quite close is the Kyosho clutch. These are the settings Josh used with his Kyosho clutch :

Kyosho White Clutch Weight - Drilled to 3.5mm
Kyosho 1.9mm Hard Spring at 1.40 setting
Gap = .50
Kyosho Grey Clutch Shoe

Gearing:
16 / 22 Pinion
56 / 59 Spur

Since the past week-end, Josh is using the CRF clutch parts and told us his clutch was now perfect, both in function and consistency. These parts are not only a fix for original clutches but also a general improvement to their function. It's not just about the spring, it's about the weights how they slide and about the shoe how it sticks to the bell.

Remember we are talking about 20-30% more power from the engine, honestly you can't believe that you will not have to adapt a few things on the car to get it to work right...

As for the pricing, this engine is more powerfull than anything out there, including modified, tuned, etc engines which cost a lot more. Also it's life span if used properly will be a lot longer than normal engines (remember no wear of the sleeve and piston). We have liners/pistons which have run tens of hours. and still perform flawlessly. Add to this that you don't need to change connecting rods after break-in and ball bearings last a lot longer because the crankshaft balancing is better. This means that even after just a few hours of running you will already be saving money over a normal engine.
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Team Orion CRF Wasp Rev X-Dyno results-wasp-rev-vs-ll3mod-clutch-engagement.jpg  
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Old 06-14-2006, 07:46 AM   #378
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Very well explained!!
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Old 06-14-2006, 07:53 AM   #379
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nano
Rainer, this engine is not in Alpha status, it's an engine which has been thouroughly tested for over 1 year. You can't expect us to be able or have time to test each pipe and header available on the market today.
I know the engine is not in Alpha status. It would have been better if I could have purchased other plugs, the pipes and the RRR clutch at the same time I bought the engine - but that wasn't possible now, was it. Instead, I became the one that needed to figure out what pipe to use based on what was available to me. Josh made a recommendation - but that doesn't come on a piece of paper in the box now, does it. And after the fact, it comes out that I really need a special clutch too. It's a damn good thing that I even know this forum exists, otherwise I would be totally clueless. (Okay, I know that some of you think I'm clueless anyway. )

When you come out and say that someone's clutch isn't setup correctly and in the same post say they need to buy the CRF clutch setup - which you can't even buy yet, you really got to think about what you're saying.

BTW - I do have more than one pipe in my pit box. I'm just not as smart as Josh.. or mxwrench, uh or Artificial-I .. or ziggy ...hmmm... I don't know, I could be the dumbest guy here.
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Old 06-14-2006, 07:55 AM   #380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nano
Rainer, this engine is not in Alpha status, it's an engine which has been thouroughly tested for over 1 year. You can't have just one pipe in your pitbox and expect it to work with this engine.
There is absolutely no problem with the bottom end, with the proper setup this engine will drive away from any other engine from standing still.
i saw this engine at my local track on a practice day. it wasn't tuned properly, and the user was playing around with pipes and stuff. now my question is why did you design a motor with so much top end? i race at the track that held the 2001 worlds, it has a pritty big straight, yet i see no need for the top end this motor has even at this track. why didn't team orion just design into the porting less top end, and they could have subsequently fixed the bottom end issues.

also, if the clutch spring is the major issue (which it seems to be) why didn't CRF include this with the motor? it's a .10 cent part, but including it would of done the world of good for team orions "customer service". the standard kit clutch shoes and pads might make you loose a little power, but with such a powerful motor a user would barely notice it, and team orion could just recommend in the instructions what shoes are best suited for the 3 or 4 major touring cars in the market. PROBLEM SOLVED.

don't get me wrong, i love the design, and i'm only baggin it out because i am keen to see it succeed. if i wasn't a curious "potential buyer" i wouldn't be reading this thread. but i hate the fact the motor needs a new spring and clutch system! TEAM ORION, YOU DROPPED THE BALL! YOU SHOULD OF AT LEAST INCLUDED THE SPRING FOR FREE!

look at the amount of money the ninja GRP motors spend on packaging the engines alone. the cost they spend in packaging, (plastic box, CD etc). orion could have provided a free spring and orion would of still come out with less production expenses as compared to GRP, yet would of been percieved by the racers as being more "user friendly"

and to the users who say "i don't mind spending money on a clutch if it makes it go better"..... you're just justifying to yourselves a purchase that has otherwise been made due to a products drawbacks.

this is sort of like mazdas problems with the rx8. great car, great design, awesome handling....but it needed a turbo because it lacked just that little bit ...so now they are going to release a turbo version
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Old 06-14-2006, 08:00 AM   #381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmdhawaii
I know the engine is not in Alpha status. It would have been better if I could have purchased other plugs, the pipes and the RRR clutch at the same time I bought the engine - but that wasn't possible now, was it. Instead, I became the one that needed to figure out what pipe to use based on what was available to me. Josh made a recommendation - but that doesn't come on a piece of paper in the box now, does it. And after the fact, it comes out that I really need a special clutch too. It's a damn good thing that I even know this forum exists, otherwise I would be totally clueless. (Okay, I know that some of you think I'm clueless anyway. )

When you come out and say that someone's clutch isn't setup correctly and in the same post say they need to buy the CRF clutch setup - which you can't even buy yet, you really got to think about what you're saying.

BTW - I do have more than one pipe in my pit box. I'm just not as smart as Josh.. or mxwrench, uh or Artificial-I .. or ziggy ...hmmm... I don't know, I could be the dumbest guy here.
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Old 06-14-2006, 08:10 AM   #382
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TomB - Looking at your avatar I'm thinking, "Cease fire! Cease fire!"

It's all good bro. When all is said and done, everyone will be happy with the end results. We learn something, Team Orion learns something and in the end we all come out ahead. In the Tech world, those of us that have the engine would be considered "early adopters". We are the first ones to buy something and try it out. What some refer to as the "cutting edge" becomes the "bleeding edge" for others.
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Old 06-14-2006, 08:20 AM   #383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itchy b
rmd, you're smarter than me
Nah! I think you're the smarter than me too.
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Old 06-14-2006, 08:27 AM   #384
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The spring was made just a couple of weeks ago and tooling only for making the square wire costed several thousands dollars (proper springs are a work of precision). The shoe and weights material costs a lot of money, they look like pieces of plastic but they are made with very expensive materials (this is where the improvement over the original clutches comes from too). The spring is important but so are the other parts, it's a package that guarantees ultimate performance, not an hop-up part, take one part out and you will not get the 100% we expect you to get from your clutch.
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Team Orion CRF Wasp Rev X-Dyno results-ori88680.jpg  
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Old 06-14-2006, 08:41 AM   #385
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Use the G4S UFO clutch with the yellow spring! Hey look, I already have more than one clutch spring in my kit! he he. The UFO clutch is looking good because it has a wide variety of options built in.

Can't wait to get me a CRF Engine!
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Old 06-14-2006, 08:50 AM   #386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy12345
I had a BRB set where the timing was similar to the CRF. It was a pig to get off the line but would never stop reving!! I did manage to geti t going by changing the spring in the clutch and using very low gears so have some experiance in setting these sort of engines up.
Sorry to go off topic on this but if you were having problems getting off the line you didnt have it set correct. Low gears are also the wrong way to go to extract all the power from the BRB.

On topic, The CRF like many other engines is producing great results running on high nitro. But from experience and with no offense to Team Orion I wont hold my breathe until I see the same results in Europe on 16%.
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Old 06-14-2006, 08:52 AM   #387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB
why didn't team orion just design into the porting less top end, and they could have subsequently fixed the bottom end issues.

also, if the clutch spring is the major issue (which it seems to be) why didn't CRF include this with the motor?

look at the amount of money the ninja GRP motors spend on packaging the engines alone. the cost they spend in packaging.

you're just justifying to yourselves a purchase that has otherwise been made due to a products drawbacks.
Again there is no bottom end problem. Don't forget the engine has many special things about it, angled crankshaft, unique cylinder/piston design. So you can't just assume that what works for normal engines works the same for this one. Use the proper clutch and gearing and your engine will accelerate from the start line like no other engine can and yet you will outrun the competition down the straight, all this while burning less fuel, what more do you want???

The spring is not the issue, the issue is the extra power delivered by this motor and actual clutch systems having a hard time dealing with it.

The GRP packaging is beautifull, but we are selling a performance engine, not performance packaging...

More power, more speed, longer lifespan, longer runtimes, you call that drawbacks?
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Old 06-14-2006, 09:04 AM   #388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teammpp
On topic, The CRF like many other engines is producing great results running on high nitro. But from experience and with no offense to Team Orion I wont hold my breathe until I see the same results in Europe on 16%.
The CRF engine was designed using both 16% and 33% nitro. It has a lot of power even when used with 16% nitro. That's all I have been using so far.
Here is quote from Josh Cyrul post on the 3rd page of this thread "As the World Championships are only 16%, that is the nitro content that we have been testing. While we talked about testing 30%.... I will save that for a larger track as the engine already has too much power for here".

Doesn't sound too bad...
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Old 06-14-2006, 10:37 AM   #389
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After reading carefully the different questions and answers over these engine, I thought it would be a good idea to edit them and resume them in a FAQ guide that might be helpful if posted in Team Orion's web site, and /or add them to the engine's manual. If anybody has others to add or correct mines, please feel free to do so.

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Questions & Answers

Q.- What is the head clearance out of the box?
0.3mm total head shimming, and 0.65-0.70mm head to piston clearance.

Q.- The head clearance sounds very high. The nominal for a .12 engine for 16% fuel is 0.3-0.4mm head clearance and 0.4-0.5mm for 25%. Even if you remove all the shims you only get .4mm. Has anybody tried to remove the shims?
In Europe we use 16% this is the EFRA rule. We wanted to have 0,3 mm to allow the engine to be used out of the box from 16% to 40% Nitro but this is one key adjustment which need to be made by each driver based on his own condition. For example in Spain they used only 0,1mm at sea level with 16% Nitro.

Q.- Is there room in the engine to lower the sleeve by 0.3mm? I was thinking of trying a mod where I skim 0.3mm off the bottom of the sleeve flange to adjust the port timing.
A lot of testing has been made on a small indoor track and in these conditions the engine has way enough power, so it was assumed that it wouldn't be needed to lower the sleeve. Shimming under the sleeve can be done to increase top end though. If you get the ORI 81349 Cylinder Timing Spacer Set it comes with 0.3mm of under sleeve shims (3 x 0.1mm) so you can raise the sleeve. Raising the sleeve moves the power band up the curve, so for fast tracks you add shims and tight tracks take them out.

Q.- Due to the comment on hardness of Nikasil, how long will this motors last or have lasted?
Until now we have yet to wear out a sleeve, the only parts that have needed changing are ball bearings. In this engine the piston does not directly touch the cylinder, it's sliding on a film of oil retained by the pores in the Nikasil. There is no binding between the piston and liner, you can even insert the piston from the top of the cylinder. What you feel when you spin the engine by hand is real compression from air tightness and not the piston binding on the cylinder. It's life span if used properly will be a lot longer than normal engines (remember no wear of the sleeve and piston). We have liners/pistons which have run tens of hours. and still perform flawlessly. Add to this that you don't need to change connecting rods after break-in and ball bearings last a lot longer because the crankshaft balancing is better. This means that even after just a few hours of running you will already be saving money over a normal engine.
To sum it all up there is not supposed to be any mechanical wear from friction at the piston/liner level. This is why the head/cylinder alignment is very important, you must rebuild the engine head in a very precise way.

Q.- What is the Timing of this engine?
If I am not wrong, induction open at 15 ABDC and close 70 ATDC, transfer 124 and exhaust 172.

Q.- What is the best pipe for this engine??
Ours are guaranteed to give 100% satisfaction, use others and you are taking chances.
We tested many pipes, and some of the pipes already out there work good enough to race the engine even though they might not be the best. You can't have just one pipe in your pit box and expect it to work with this engine. I have tested pipes which make this engine crawl, others that work ok and others that make it fly.
Don't forget the engine has many special things about it, angled crankshaft, unique cylinder/piston design. So you can't just assume that what works for normal engines works the same for this one.

Q.- Why doesn’t this engine work well with standard centax clutches provided by car manufacturers??
2-stroke motors have a certain rpm range that they are designed to work in, if your clutch engages too early you are out of the optimal range for the engine and it bogs because it is not developing enough power and torque to move the car forward. You need your clutch to engage when the engine has reached it's optimal rpm range which is higher in the case of the CRF engine. The CRF engine develops it's power later, meaning that the clutch has to engage roughly 5000rpm later. Obviously most clutches in their original form are not designed for this.
The extra power of the CRF Wasp does exacerbate the weaknesses of certain clutches. As you can see from the dyno results, the clutch has to transfer 0.2-0.3HP more than most engines sold out there, that is 20-30% more power the clutch (and transmission) is having to deal with
The stiffness of the spring and the gap between the clutch bell and the shoe are both important. Also remember that when you tighten a spring, the pressure increases exponentially. If you screw the spring adjust nut 2mm versus 1mm you will have a lot more than 2 times the pressure. By tightening a spring too much you reach a point where it does not fill it's spring function anymore so if you tighten a softer spring it's not the same as using a stiffer spring from the start.
The CRF spring is made with unique square wire because it's the only way to make a spring that is stiffer and still fits inside a clutch. There is not enough room for a spring made with thicker round wire.
CRF clutch parts provide both, function and consistency. These parts are not only a fix for original clutches but also a general improvement to their function. It's not just about the spring, it's about the weights how they slide and about the shoe how it sticks to the bell. The shoe and weights are made with very expensive materials (this is where the improvement over the original clutches comes from too).
The spring is important but so are the other parts, CRF’s clutch parts are a package that guarantees ultimate performance, not an hop-up part, take one part out and you will not get the 100% we expect you to get from your clutch.

Q.- Is it true the engine lacks bottom end power??
There is absolutely no problem with the bottom end. With the proper setup this engine will drive away from any other engine from standing still. If your engine bogs, then you are either running a clutch which engages too early, a pipe that does not suit the motor, or improper gear ratio.
Don't forget the engine has many special things about it, angled crankshaft, unique cylinder/piston design. So you can't just assume that what works for normal engines works the same for this one. Use the proper clutch and gearing and your engine will accelerate from the start line like no other engine can and yet you will outrun the competition down the straight, all this while burning less fuel.
If you try one of these motors you really need to adjust the GEARING!!! Everyone remember, this engine likes to REV so be careful to not hand too much gear on it. Use a shorter gear ratio and the engine works much better!!!

Q.- What is the power of this engine?
The Wasp REV CRF recorded better horsepower ratings than any engine, stock or modified, listed in the Nitrodyne Systems database! Peak horsepower was an impressive 1.15hp @ 37,500, and Torque was 30.93 oz-in @ 37,250, but even more so was the power curve. Excellent horsepower over a broad RPM range means more usable power for the driver.
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Old 06-14-2006, 11:04 AM   #390
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I am amazed at all the complaining surrounding this motor.

First off I think all of us who have bought the motor can agree that the power is there, it has a different powerband than many of the other units on the market.

Personaly I am glad that Orion is releasing pipe sets for their motor, it makes things much easier & removes the guess work out of choosing the right pipe set for the motor. Novorassi has been doing this for years. Nova understand that every motor and pipe is differnent and rather than tell their customers to figure it out they offer a product known to work well with their engine to make their product look even better.


There also seems to be alot of talk about clutches, again I don't see the problem, no one is saying you have to go out and buy a new clutch but it Orion makes a better clutch people will buy it to get the most out of whatever motor they have. Optional clutches have been around for a long time and its not uncommon to see people use a clutch different from what came with their car. Personally I have seen several R40s using Mugen clutches as an upgrade and the K-factory UFO clutch for the Kyosho is one of the hot sellers @ the hobby shop I ordered my car from.


The way I see it, its real simple. The motor has good power. To get the most out of the motor you may try many pipes to find the best one or buy one of the CRF pipes made to do just that. To take full advantage of the motor's power you need to have a good clutch and should your car come with a poor clutch there is a CRF upgrade one available.

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