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Old 06-04-2006, 07:57 PM   #196
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I believe around 300$ unless you order it from overseas... then meybe 170-300$
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Old 06-04-2006, 10:00 PM   #197
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Broke in and raced the engine today. Had some problems, but the engine was very fast and had no run time issues.

It was a hot day. By noon, track temp was 125F. By 1:00pm, it was 135F . Used the turbo 6 plug that came with the engine and Mugen Seiki 20% fuel. V-ONE RRR clutch setting was .8mm. Lightweight flywheel, clutchbell and steel gears. Kit defaults for pinon and spur gear.

Factory settings were used when starting the engine. It would not draw fuel from the tank without holding the stinger (Thanks Justin). Once fuel was drawn, it would start but not hold an idle. I gave it some throttle and it idled just fine - so I figured I would open up the high-end up to 1/2 turn (didn't work, put it back) and then the low-end up to 1/2 turn (also didn't work, put it back). Finally, my buddy (Thanks JD) suggested that I turn-in the idle screw (slide valve stop screw). I ended up turning it in two full turns before the engine would idle.

So now that I got the engine started, I took it for a nice leisurely drive around the track. Nothing too fast. After 3-4 laps I brought it in and guess what? First read was 320, a few seconds later 300. Oh oh. Now what? I let the engine cool to 107F before starting it up again. Opened the high-end 1/4 turn and took it out again. JD would check the temp and open the high-end. This happened a few times. Engine finally settled down to about 260. Still had some low-end issues, so opened that as well. The engine bogging was the weirdest thing ever. The engine would really slow down, but not actually die. You would hear a deep "Waugh! Waugh! Waugh!" sound when I pulled the throttle. Flywheel would not engage (i.e not reving very high). I had to pump the throttle to clear the engine. This became a problem any time I was off throttle for too long. Even holding the throttle at WTO would not clear the engine. I had to pump it. After the two tanks and all the troubleshooting, it was qualifying time. Unlike last time we raced, we didn't have as much open practice.

When I was on throttle, engine was good. Lots of power. V12 Plus pipe worked great. If I got off throttle and tried to accelerate, there would a delay before the throttle would kick in. This happened for both the two qualifiers and all three mains. Luckily, the engine didn't actually die on on any of the starts, but I did have to keep blipping the throttle to make sure the engine would not go into bog mode. Engine behaved at about 260F. Just before the third main, I leaned out the top end and the engine finished at about 220F. Engine would flame out if the car landed on it's back, even if I blipped the throttle. In case you haven't drawn the conclusion yourself, engine was running way too rich. What a mess! If you know what I mean.

After racing was done, I checked the settings. 6.5 turns on the high-speed, 5 on the low-speed. Two turn-ins on the idle screw. Went back to 5.5 on the high-end, 4 on the low-end and the engine was almost running right. Opened the idle 2 turns and the engine seemed to be running a lot better. No more bogging. Couldn't actually run on the track, because they started to take it down. But these results were much more encouraging.

This is clearly an example of how not to do things and any advice (especially from from Nano, Josh or mxwrench) would be very benifical to all, I'm sure. If at all possible, you should not break-in and race the engine on the same day. I didn't have much choice.

- Turbo 7 plug would have been good to try. I'm sorry, but I'm only going to use the CRF plugs.

- Running different % nitro would have been good. I've only been running 20%.

- Make sure you have a very small, long screwdriver if you've got a RRR. It's hard to adust the low-speed because the fuel tank is in the way. The head is small, which also makes things difficult.

- I ended up overstretching both of my Skyline V12 Plus tuned pipe springs, so make sure you get some longer ones. Unfortunately, I only had tighter ones on hand (RD Logics) and those are much more resilient than the Skyline springs.

Although I had some problems today, I'm really looking forward to the next opportunity to run and tune the engine. I like it much better than the OS TZ.

I'm really tired. Worked on the car till 3:30am and then got up about 6:20am. I'm ready to hit the shower and catch some Zzzzzz's. As indicated above, let's help the next guy do a better job at breaking in and adjusting the engine.

Josh - I was hoping that I could just lean out the engine like you indicated, instead of opening it up. I knew I was in trouble, when I had to turn things in the other direction way more than you had said, but, ah, well, ah, um...
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Old 06-04-2006, 10:08 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmdhawaii
Broke in and raced the engine today. Had some problems, but the engine was very fast and had no run time issues.

It was a hot day. By noon, track temp was 125F. By 1:00pm, it was 135F . Used the turbo 6 plug that came with the engine and Mugen Seiki 20% fuel. V-ONE RRR clutch setting was .8mm. Lightweight flywheel, clutchbell and steel gears. Kit defaults for pinon and spur gear.

Factory settings were used when starting the engine. It would not draw fuel from the tank without holding the stinger (Thanks Justin). Once fuel was drawn, it would start but not hold an idle. I gave it some throttle and it idled just fine - so I figured I would open up the high-end up to 1/2 turn (didn't work, put it back) and then the low-end up to 1/2 turn (also didn't work, put it back). Finally, my buddy (Thanks JD) suggested that I turn-in the idle screw (slide valve stop screw). I ended up turning it in two full turns before the engine would idle.

So now that I got the engine started, I took it for a nice leisurely drive around the track. Nothing too fast. After 3-4 laps I brought it in and guess what? First read was 320, a few seconds later 300. Oh oh. Now what? I let the engine cool to 107F before starting it up again. Opened the high-end 1/4 turn and took it out again. JD would check the temp and open the high-end. Engine finally settle down to about 260. Still had some low-end issues, so opened that as well. The engine bogging was the weirdest thing ever. The engine would really slow down, but not actually die. You would hear a deep "Waugh! Waugh! Waugh!" sound when I pulled the throttle. Flywheel would not engage (i.e not reving very high). I had to pump the throttle to clear the engine. This became a problem any time I was off throttle for too long. Even holding the throttle at WTO would not clear the engine. I had to pump it. After the two tanks and all the troubleshooting, it was qualifying time. Unlike last time we raced, we didn't have as much open practice.

When I was on throttle, engine was good. Lots of power. V12 Plus pipe worked great. If I got off throttle and tried to accelerate, there would a delay before the throttle would kick in. This happened for both the two qualifiers and all three mains. Luckily, the engine didn't actually die on on any of the starts, but I did have to keep blipping the throttle to make sure the engine would not go into bog mode. Engine behaved at about 260F. Just before the third main, I leaned out the top end and the engine finished at about 220F. Engine would flame out the car landed on it's back, even if I blipped the throttle. In case you haven't drawn the conclusion yourself, engine was running wau too rich. What a mess! If you know what I mean.

After racing was done, I check the settings. 6.5 turns on the high-speed, 5 on the low-speed. Two turn-in on the idle screw. Went back to 5.5 on the high-end, 4 on the low-end and the engine was almost running right. Opened the idle 2 turns and the engine seemed to be running a lot better. Couldn't actually run on the track, because they started to take it down. But these results were much more encouraging.

This is clearly an example of how not to do things and any advice (especially from from Nano, Josh or mxwrench) would be very benifical to all, I'm sure. If at all possible, you should not break-in and race the engine on the same day. I didn't have much choice.

- Turbo 7 plug would have been good to try. I'm sorry, but I'm only going to use the CRF plugs.

- Running different % nitro would have been good. I've only been running 20%.

- Make sure you have a very small, long screwdriver if you've got a RRR. It's hard to adust the low-speed because the fuel tank is in the way. The head is small, which also makes things difficult.

- I ended up overstretching both of my Skyline V12 Plus tuned pipe springs, so make sure you get some longer ones. Unfortunately, I only had tighter ones on hand (RD Logics) and those are much more resilient than the Skyline springs.

Although I had some problems today, I'm really looking forward to the next opportunity to run and tune the engine. I like it much better than the OS TZ.

I'm really tired. Worked on the car till 3:30am and then got up about 6:20am. I'm ready to hit the shower and catch some Zzzzzz's. As indicated above, let's help the next guy do a better job at breaking in and adjusting the engine.

Josh - I was hoping that I could just lean out the engine like you indicated, instead of opening it up. I knew I was in trouble, when I had to turn things in the other direction way more than you had said, but, ah, well, ah, um...
Damn, thats sad to hear. But from what your describing that the car would not idle unless you had to apply throttle has almost always to do with the idle stop screw. What temp gun are you guys using to take temperatures on this engine? The head is very wide and open (like the Novarossi 12+ and Ninjas). This means, the temp probe can get even closer to the glowplug. In other words it will read a much higher temp. I have heard of pros tuning their ninjas to 320-360F degrees because of this. And I have seen a friend of mine with his 12 plus coming out of a qualifier at 310* and nothing happened to the engine (exergen probe was used). If your using the exergen or a similar one, you could probably tune it to a higher temp then check the engine each time you come out. This is why almost 99.9% of the pros dont let temp guide their tuning, but the speed of the engine.
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Old 06-05-2006, 12:17 AM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riketsu
Damn, thats sad to hear. But from what your describing that the car would not idle unless you had to apply throttle has almost always to do with the idle stop screw. What temp gun are you guys using to take temperatures on this engine? The head is very wide and open (like the Novarossi 12+ and Ninjas). This means, the temp probe can get even closer to the glowplug. In other words it will read a much higher temp. I have heard of pros tuning their ninjas to 320-360F degrees because of this. And I have seen a friend of mine with his 12 plus coming out of a qualifier at 310* and nothing happened to the engine (exergen probe was used). If your using the exergen or a similar one, you could probably tune it to a higher temp then check the engine each time you come out. This is why almost 99.9% of the pros dont let temp guide their tuning, but the speed of the engine.
We're not using an Exergen, so I'm not sure how accurate the reading is.
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Old 06-05-2006, 12:55 AM   #200
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We had two CRF engines at the race this weekend. Actually 3, but one got toasted because an unexperienced pit guy didn't know which way is rich on the HSN .

It looks like break in was pretty easy and quick on those. The guys borrowed my exergen gun and started with 95C with the stock carb settings. After 2 tanks they started to lean them out. At the end of break in, one ran fine at 115C, the other one at 113C. It was freaking cold for June though (10C).

Both engines seemed to run pretty reliable and power was not bad.
I ran a SMG RR12L3 which ran at 95C and it was a good bit faster than the two CRF's.

So, the CRF looks like a solid engine, but power wise really nothing to write home about.

If Edwards timing numbers are correct (which I don't doubt), then this engine should produce way more power. My RR12L3 has much milder timing and was faster.
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Old 06-05-2006, 01:21 AM   #201
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Well, guess we'll have to see more track testing before I pull my checkbook on it. The ideas/designs are very cool concepts. It'll be interesting to buy one just to see it on the track myself.

RMD, are there any local racers that have real good experience with nitro motors? You might want to get hooked up with them. Tuning motors can't really be done on paper or on the box, you really need to develop the ears and eyes for it.

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Old 06-05-2006, 06:11 AM   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by litespeed-dom
Well, guess we'll have to see more track testing before I pull my checkbook on it. The ideas/designs are very cool concepts. It'll be interesting to buy one just to see it on the track myself.

RMD, are there any local racers that have real good experience with nitro motors? You might want to get hooked up with them. Tuning motors can't really be done on paper or on the box, you really need to develop the ears and eyes for it.

Dom
Yes, almost all the A Main guys. They all have very fast engines and cars and they've been running Nitro for at least 4-5+ years, both on-road and off. Since we only have races twice a month, they are just as busy as I am prepping the car for qualifying and racing. Setup the track, then about an hour - maybe hour-half open practice and then two rounds of back-to-back qualifiers. Then half an hour to hour-half of open practice - and then three back-to-back mains. Very busy indeed and only half an hour of open practice between the qualifers and mains today.

I do get some help and a lot of the guys are great about having a quick look, but I don't want to be taking away time from them. If we had a permanent track, tuning the engine and car wouldn't be an issue. I would just take time off from work. But you have to work with what you got.

A few words of advice in here (+ PM) can go a long way. I think everyone can learn from each other - and from other people's mistakes. I have no problems sharing my mistakes or asking stupid questions. For guys like yourself, that have been doing this for years, this is easy and you know what to look for. I don't want to have to wait 4-5 years until I'm as smart as the A main guys. Testing the UE/X today proved that if you ask the right questions and get the right answers, you can get some pretty impressive results in a very short time. Too bad engine tuning and troubleshooting isn't as easy...
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Old 06-05-2006, 06:22 AM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmdhawaii
Yes, almost all the A Main guys. They all have very fast engines and cars and they've been running Nitro for at least 4-5+ years, both on-road and off. Since we only have races twice a month, they are just as busy as I am prepping the car for qualifying and racing. Setup the track, then about an hour - maybe hour-half open practice and then two rounds of back-to-back qualifiers. Then half an hour to hour-half of open practice - and then three back-to-back mains. Very busy indeed and only half an hour of open practice between the qualifers and mains today.

I do get some help and a lot of the guys are great about having a quick look, but I don't want to be taking away time from them. If we had a permanent track, tuning the engine and car wouldn't be an issue. I would just take time off from work. But you have to work with what you got.

A few words of advice in here (+ PM) can go a long way. I think everyone can learn from each other - and from other people's mistakes. I have no problems sharing my mistakes or asking stupid questions. For guys like yourself, that have been doing this for years, this is easy and you know what to look for. I don't want to have to wait 4-5 years until I'm as smart as the A main guys. Testing the UE/X today proved that if you ask the right questions and get the right answers, you can get some pretty impressive results in a very short time. Too bad engine tuning and troubleshooting isn't as easy...
You're attitude is spot on in getting help. Fellow racers will generally go out of their way to help someone who is prepared to listen and learn.
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Old 06-05-2006, 08:31 AM   #204
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Quote:
Broke in and raced the engine today. Had some problems, but the engine was very fast and had no run time issues.

It was a hot day. By noon, track temp was 125F. By 1:00pm, it was 135F . Used the turbo 6 plug that came with the engine and Mugen Seiki 20% fuel. V-ONE RRR clutch setting was .8mm. Lightweight flywheel, clutchbell and steel gears. Kit defaults for pinon and spur gear.

Factory settings were used when starting the engine. It would not draw fuel from the tank without holding the stinger (Thanks Justin). Once fuel was drawn, it would start but not hold an idle. I gave it some throttle and it idled just fine - so I figured I would open up the high-end up to 1/2 turn (didn't work, put it back) and then the low-end up to 1/2 turn (also didn't work, put it back). Finally, my buddy (Thanks JD) suggested that I turn-in the idle screw (slide valve stop screw). I ended up turning it in two full turns before the engine would idle.

So now that I got the engine started, I took it for a nice leisurely drive around the track. Nothing too fast. After 3-4 laps I brought it in and guess what? First read was 320, a few seconds later 300. Oh oh. Now what? I let the engine cool to 107F before starting it up again. Opened the high-end 1/4 turn and took it out again. JD would check the temp and open the high-end. This happened a few times. Engine finally settled down to about 260. Still had some low-end issues, so opened that as well. The engine bogging was the weirdest thing ever. The engine would really slow down, but not actually die. You would hear a deep "Waugh! Waugh! Waugh!" sound when I pulled the throttle. Flywheel would not engage (i.e not reving very high). I had to pump the throttle to clear the engine. This became a problem any time I was off throttle for too long. Even holding the throttle at WTO would not clear the engine. I had to pump it. After the two tanks and all the troubleshooting, it was qualifying time. Unlike last time we raced, we didn't have as much open practice.

When I was on throttle, engine was good. Lots of power. V12 Plus pipe worked great. If I got off throttle and tried to accelerate, there would a delay before the throttle would kick in. This happened for both the two qualifiers and all three mains. Luckily, the engine didn't actually die on on any of the starts, but I did have to keep blipping the throttle to make sure the engine would not go into bog mode. Engine behaved at about 260F. Just before the third main, I leaned out the top end and the engine finished at about 220F. Engine would flame out if the car landed on it's back, even if I blipped the throttle. In case you haven't drawn the conclusion yourself, engine was running way too rich. What a mess! If you know what I mean.

After racing was done, I checked the settings. 6.5 turns on the high-speed, 5 on the low-speed. Two turn-ins on the idle screw. Went back to 5.5 on the high-end, 4 on the low-end and the engine was almost running right. Opened the idle 2 turns and the engine seemed to be running a lot better. No more bogging. Couldn't actually run on the track, because they started to take it down. But these results were much more encouraging.

This is clearly an example of how not to do things and any advice (especially from from Nano, Josh or mxwrench) would be very benifical to all, I'm sure. If at all possible, you should not break-in and race the engine on the same day. I didn't have much choice.

- Turbo 7 plug would have been good to try. I'm sorry, but I'm only going to use the CRF plugs.

- Running different % nitro would have been good. I've only been running 20%.

- Make sure you have a very small, long screwdriver if you've got a RRR. It's hard to adust the low-speed because the fuel tank is in the way. The head is small, which also makes things difficult.

- I ended up overstretching both of my Skyline V12 Plus tuned pipe springs, so make sure you get some longer ones. Unfortunately, I only had tighter ones on hand (RD Logics) and those are much more resilient than the Skyline springs.

Although I had some problems today, I'm really looking forward to the next opportunity to run and tune the engine. I like it much better than the OS TZ.

I'm really tired. Worked on the car till 3:30am and then got up about 6:20am. I'm ready to hit the shower and catch some Zzzzzz's. As indicated above, let's help the next guy do a better job at breaking in and adjusting the engine.

Josh - I was hoping that I could just lean out the engine like you indicated, instead of opening it up. I knew I was in trouble, when I had to turn things in the other direction way more than you had said, but, ah, well, ah, um...
RMD, What were the clutch and gearing settings you used compared to what you would normally use with your TZ? This engine definitely needs some different thinking when setting up the clutch and gear ratios to take advantage of it's unique powerband!

Here is a dyno graph of the Wasp REV Vs. A typical hot novarossi Modified LS3
Attached Thumbnails
Team Orion CRF Wasp Rev X-Dyno results-wasp-rev-vs-ll3mod.jpg  
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Old 06-05-2006, 09:06 AM   #205
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I have detailed here what the differences should be to get a clutch engagement point that will take advantage of the engines unique powerband. Please see dyno graph below...

If you were to keep the same clutch setting as a typical nova engine, while using the Wasp Rev, you can see it will be well out of its powerband for some time before comming on power. This might be part of what is causing your problems!

The typical novarossi clutch setup would be 20-22,000rpm where the Wasp Rev would be 26-28,000rpm.

With too early of a clutch engagement, the engine has to struggle to come on the pipe, and this will lead to a big lag in power, also a tremendous heat build up as the engine is basically fighting itself at this rpm.

Also note the difference in useable power rpm range... This will require changes in gearing as well as 2 speed shift points to allow the car to use the rpm range best suited for each engine. Usually 1 tooth smaller pinion both 1st and 2nd and 1/2 turn tighter on each 2 speed adj. screw is a good starting point for the CRF.

Too rich a low speed needle setting will also cause the engine to hesitate off idle. Once the High speed needle is adjusted for optimum top speed (and then richend 1-2 hrs for safety) then set the low speed needle for best throttle response from a stand still (on track) The car should accelerate without any hesitation and have a bit of blue smoke comming out when the proper setting is achieved.

I think 1 0.1mm head shim can probably be removed when running 20% because the std. head clearance is almost perfect, if not a little loose for 30% fuel.

I hope these tips help when tuning you engine next time out!

I will try and make a spreadsheet that will help with the gearing selection as well as clutch engagement points, and post it later today.
Attached Thumbnails
Team Orion CRF Wasp Rev X-Dyno results-wasp-rev-vs-ll3mod-clutch-engagement.jpg  
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Old 06-05-2006, 09:14 AM   #206
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Instead of screwing in the spring for the clutch why not lighten the clutch shoe? This will engage on the power band but allow a softer engage and not snatch

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Old 06-05-2006, 09:40 AM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mxwrench
RMD, What were the clutch and gearing settings you used compared to what you would normally use with your TZ? This engine definitely needs some different thinking when setting up the clutch and gear ratios to take advantage of it's unique powerband!

Here is a dyno graph of the Wasp REV Vs. A typical hot novarossi Modified LS3
Stock RRR gears (16/61 - 21/56), grey clutch shoe and stock clutch spring. For clutch nut adjustment, 0.8mm for the WASP REV, 0.6mm for the OS TZ. Kit default is 1.2mm.

Because I was so distracted by the other issues, I can honestly say that adjusting the clutch nut didn't even cross my mind today. Duh!

Just to note it, I didn't use the collet that comes with the engine, because there was such a large gap between the engine and the lightweight flywheel that I was using. I used the same collet that I used for the OS TZ.

I think I need to bolt on the telemetry system that I have. I've used the temp monitor before, but not the RPM monitor. I had absolutely no time to set that up for today. That will certainly make adjusting the clutch easier.
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Old 06-05-2006, 09:42 AM   #208
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rmd - After running at this weekends Midwest Series in Detroit I found that some of the problem that you had was due to the pipe. The initial carb settings were based off of rich settings with the Orion pipes. For example - I tried my old Sirio pipe and header on the engine this weekend and had to lean the top end 11 hours!! Nearly a full turn!! It really just depends on the pipe and how much back pressure it generates. It is possible that the Skyline pipe you used generates less back pressure and that's why the carb was sooo far off.... The "waugh" sound you hear on most engines mean that it's too lean on the bottom end - With this engine, that's the sound it makes when the engine is too rich on the bottom end. If you hear something that sounds more like a rapid stutter, that is when the engine is too lean on the bottom end. Trust me, this takes time to get used to and make the right adjustments. I've run the engine a decient amount now and I still have to stop and think about the sounds to make the proper adjustment.

stefan - What pipe were you using??

ziggy - You have to be careful when lightening the clutch weights. If you go too far, you can slip the clutch a lot - especially when you bang into 2nd gear. This can again cause the clutch to overheat and loose performance. With the stock Kyosho White Clutch Weights it is ok to drill them out to 3.5mm and the performance is good. If you go to 4mm it's possible to get performance for a qualifier but for anything over 10-15 minutes the clutch will fade. Also, with a 4mm hole, the clutch shoe life is greatly decreased (it won't wear, but the heat cycling and constant slipping with cause it to "glaze" and loose performance).
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Old 06-05-2006, 11:20 AM   #209
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My motor from Rc-Mart arrived on shcedule and its in the car now. I found that the hi-speed setting listed in the manual of 5.5 turns was so far off for my car that if you gave it any gas it would die instatnly. After a bit or work I ended up at 7 turns out on the hi-speed and the factory settings being perfect for the low-speed & idle. Power is great and the motor is steady in the 220-235F range.

After a get a couple more tanks through I may try leaning out the hi-speed an hour or 2 more but any more than that I would be back at a fuel starved hi-speed.

BTW. I was using a G4 w/ 3 shoe clutch & a K-Factory missle pipe.

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Old 06-05-2006, 11:31 AM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Cyrul
stefan - What pipe were you using??
Josh, I wasn't running a Wasp, I was the guy with the really fast engine

The guys with the CRF's were running Mielke 2601 pipes with short conical header.
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