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2015 Fuel battle ... opinions only , no facts ! >

2015 Fuel battle ... opinions only , no facts !

2015 Fuel battle ... opinions only , no facts !

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Old 04-05-2015, 05:45 AM
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we run 7% oil..on a ultra high bite track. Primarily running truggy...we have no issues with worn crankpins ( Werks fuel ) .....I do however see many burnt crankpins but its not from low oil content.....Byron's 11% protects good, the other stuff does not...seen lots of bad cranks from Byron's 9% and 8%......
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Old 04-05-2015, 06:19 AM
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Bones 8% protects extremely well, I first discovered Bones Brew in the oval racing circuits due to how well it was protecting. The guys using Bones were getting more then triple the lifespan from their engines as guys running regular fuels. And Let me tell you oval racing kills engines really fast, these guys are running modified 28's pretty much non stop wide open, just brutalizing their engines... We were seeing a very high number of rod failures along with worn crankpins. Guys running regular common fuels were lucky to see 3 big race events per engine meanwhile guys running Bones were able to go 2 seasons, the difference is huge...Even at 8% oil Bones is going to protect better then anything else , even competitors with 11% oil won't match it....So don't be scared to try the Bones 8% the quality of its oil is very high and it has proven to me to offer superior protection under the harshest of conditions... However in the end there is nothing wrong with the 10% either, but just don't assume the 8% is lacking enough protection ...
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Old 04-05-2015, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Maximo View Post
Bones 8% protects extremely well, I first discovered Bones Brew in the oval racing circuits due to how well it was protecting. The guys using Bones were getting more then triple the lifespan from their engines as guys running regular fuels. And Let me tell you oval racing kills engines really fast, these guys are running modified 28's pretty much non stop wide open, just brutalizing their engines... We were seeing a very high number of rod failures along with worn crankpins. Guys running regular common fuels were lucky to see 3 big race events per engine meanwhile guys running Bones were able to go 2 seasons, the difference is huge...Even at 8% oil Bones is going to protect better then anything else , even competitors with 11% oil won't match it....So don't be scared to try the Bones 8% the quality of its oil is very high and it has proven to me to offer superior protection under the harshest of conditions... However in the end there is nothing wrong with the 10% either, but just don't assume the 8% is lacking enough protection ...
Really?

So the bones guy has figured something out noooooo other fuel manufacturer could huh?

Sounds like a sales pitch to me

Not only do engines and notably crank pins wear from a weak lube pkg , there is a few needles on the carburetor that depict engine wear much more so than lube pkgs .

IMO
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Old 04-05-2015, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by houston View Post
Really?

So the bones guy has figured something out noooooo other fuel manufacturer could huh?

Sounds like a sales pitch to me

Not only do engines and notably crank pins wear from a weak lube pkg , there is a few needles on the carburetor that depict engine wear much more so than lube pkgs .

IMO
I believe that everything we are discussing is in the end is relevant to how aggressively the different brands of fuels were tested during their development and to what performance standard the fuel was designed to achieve...For example I know of one fuel brand that was tested by a team that only ran stock engines with DLC coated crankshaft.. Everything was fine, fuel protected great in testing, no issues. However once the fuel hit the market guys started seeing crazy fast crankpin wear on engines not equipped with DLC coated cranks.. During their testing the fuel performed awesome, however their DLC coated cranks were masking a weak lube package, and it wasn't till the fuel hit the market that the issue was discovered...Anyways its no sales pitch , Bones brew 8% was developed under the most extreme of race conditions inside some of the most radically powerful off-road engines on the planet...IMO If it can successfully protect these extremely modified oval 28's it can protect anything......
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Old 04-05-2015, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by 22Racer View Post
I do agree Monty. But in tearing down hundreds of engines I have came to the conclusion it also depends on how you run them. A truggy with big power on a hooked up track in my opinion should run a little more oil. Especially if you run it as lean as you can. It is just so much more stress on the oil film between the crankpin and rod. I do see more wear on truggy cranks/rods than buggy in general.

Rex
I agree 100%.... the harder and leaner the engine is run, the faster it wears out the crankpin and rod.....
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Old 04-05-2015, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Maximo View Post
I believe that everything we are discussing is in the end is relevant to how aggressively the different brands of fuels were tested during their development and to what performance standard the fuel was designed to achieve...For example I know of one fuel brand that was tested by a team that only ran stock engines with DLC coated crankshaft.. Everything was fine, fuel protected great in testing, no issues. However once the fuel hit the market guys started seeing crazy fast crankpin wear on engines not equipped with DLC coated cranks.. During their testing the fuel performed awesome, however their DLC coated cranks were masking a weak lube package, and it wasn't till the fuel hit the market that the issue was discovered...Anyways its no sales pitch , Bones brew 8% was developed under the most extreme of race conditions inside some of the most radically powerful off-road engines on the planet...IMO If it can successfully protect these extremely modified oval 28's it can protect anything......
You really want us to believe that a fuel manufacturer invested money on fuel that was only tested on dlc cranks and not non dlc and then released it to the public, just for the sake of you winning this debate?

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Old 04-05-2015, 10:13 PM
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All cranks should be DLc coated.
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Old 04-06-2015, 02:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Frank L View Post
All cranks should be DLc coated.
true story
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Old 04-06-2015, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Frank L View Post
All cranks should be DLc coated.
I disagree, DLC coating was something that was really started by OS because they could not get the metalurgy figured out to make their cranks last (a similar issue that most Asian engine manufacturers face). Their engines were well known for prematurely wearing out crank pins so with their first Speed engine they slapped a bandaid on it and DLC coated the crank. Premature crank pin wear is not an issue that you run into with a Nova, Werks, Picco or other Italian made engines because they have the metaulrgy down pat for the cranks. For most Italian engine brands a crank pin will easily stay in specs for the life of 3-4 P/S. So unless you are one of those customers that rebuilds an engine 5+ times (which I have never heard of) with most Italian engine brands DLC coating a crank is just an additional cost the gets passed on to the consumer for something that basically offers them no benefit hence it's wasted money.

It's easy to make blanket statements about something like DLC coating being needed but at the end of the day it's a product that is offered to fix a specific issue or problem, if there is not a problem in the first place then it's just bling and bling does not make someone faster nor make a product better, it just makes it flashier but unfortunately someone has to pay for that flash and at the end of the day the person paying for it is the consumer! We all (manufacturers) weigh the pro's and cons of offering specific features with our engines and at the end of the day if I'm faced with deciding to price an engine $20-$30 higher in order to offer the customer DLC coating (which in our engines does not offer a performance or longevity benefit) for marketing purposes or something like a ceramic rear bearing (which offers both a performance and longevity benefit), or lightened and epoxy filled crank (which offers a performance benefit) I'm going to choose the ceramic rear bearing or epoxy filled crank every day of the week and pass on DLC.
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Old 04-06-2015, 10:27 AM
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^^^ Very well said ;-)
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Old 04-08-2015, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Werks View Post
I disagree, DLC coating was something that was really started by OS because they could not get the metalurgy figured out to make their cranks last (a similar issue that most Asian engine manufacturers face). Their engines were well known for prematurely wearing out crank pins so with their first Speed engine they slapped a bandaid on it and DLC coated the crank. Premature crank pin wear is not an issue that you run into with a Nova, Werks, Picco or other Italian made engines because they have the metaulrgy down pat for the cranks. For most Italian engine brands a crank pin will easily stay in specs for the life of 3-4 P/S. So unless you are one of those customers that rebuilds an engine 5+ times (which I have never heard of) with most Italian engine brands DLC coating a crank is just an additional cost the gets passed on to the consumer for something that basically offers them no benefit hence it's wasted money.

It's easy to make blanket statements about something like DLC coating being needed but at the end of the day it's a product that is offered to fix a specific issue or problem, if there is not a problem in the first place then it's just bling and bling does not make someone faster nor make a product better, it just makes it flashier but unfortunately someone has to pay for that flash and at the end of the day the person paying for it is the consumer! We all (manufacturers) weigh the pro's and cons of offering specific features with our engines and at the end of the day if I'm faced with deciding to price an engine $20-$30 higher in order to offer the customer DLC coating (which in our engines does not offer a performance or longevity benefit) for marketing purposes or something like a ceramic rear bearing (which offers both a performance and longevity benefit), or lightened and epoxy filled crank (which offers a performance benefit) I'm going to choose the ceramic rear bearing or epoxy filled crank every day of the week and pass on DLC.
Dont know man. There are a few holes with your (i'll call it) theory. I think DLC is better than just a coating to stop crankpins wearing. It may have been the case a while ago, but wouldnt OS have figured out the metallurgy by now? And DLC has nothing to do with the metallurgy anyway, it's a coating, not a metal. Would OS just ignore it and whack on a coating. Also, they offer engines without DLC, and I have very rarely heard cranks snapping or wearing too fast even on those. Also why coat a whole crank if it is just the pin wearing? Also, the Italians are starting to use DLC on stuff like backplates, for less wear. And while on Italians, their metallurgy isnt that dialed either, as conrods seem to be made of butter in some engines. Pricewise, I would still pay for one of your B6Pro's with 20-30 on top of current pricing if it had DCL crank. Also, Hudy is able to offer high quality and ceramics and DLC for 100-150 less than the current Speeds. I guess I just agree, that cranks should be DLCoated
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Old 04-08-2015, 01:01 AM
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Accidental post
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Old 04-08-2015, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by BigInJapan View Post
Dont know man. There are a few holes with your (i'll call it) theory. I think DLC is better than just a coating to stop crankpins wearing. It may have been the case a while ago, but wouldnt OS have figured out the metallurgy by now? And DLC has nothing to do with the metallurgy anyway, it's a coating, not a metal. Would OS just ignore it and whack on a coating. Also, they offer engines without DLC, and I have very rarely heard cranks snapping or wearing too fast even on those. Also why coat a whole crank if it is just the pin wearing? Also, the Italians are starting to use DLC on stuff like backplates, for less wear. And while on Italians, their metallurgy isnt that dialed either, as conrods seem to be made of butter in some engines. Pricewise, I would still pay for one of your B6Pro's with 20-30 on top of current pricing if it had DCL crank. Also, Hudy is able to offer high quality and ceramics and DLC for 100-150 less than the current Speeds. I guess I just agree, that cranks should be DLCoated
I agree with this.

I have seen many prematurely worn Italian crank pins that i believe would only benefit from DLC.
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Old 04-08-2015, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by BigInJapan View Post
Dont know man. There are a few holes with your (i'll call it) theory.
It's not a theory, that is how DLC coating made it's appearance. Being in this industry for a while dealing specifically with engines you tend to kind of have an idea on what is going on. The first person that did this was acutally Jean Paul in France with his JP Modified OS engines back in the early 2000's, what a lot of us would arguably say is the engine that OS modeled their original Speed engine on.

Originally Posted by BigInJapan View Post
I think DLC is better than just a coating to stop crankpins wearing.

If you think DLC coaring is better than just a coating to stop crank pins wearing please let me know what benefit it realy provides other than that??? DLC coating is a surface coating that is applied to a metal specifically to increase it's resistance to abrasive wear. Where is abrasive wear an issue on cranks? Specifically on the crank pins, so if you have an issue with crank pin wear you DLC coat the crank and problem solved.

Originally Posted by BigInJapan View Post
It may have been the case a while ago, but wouldnt OS have figured out the metallurgy by now?
Maybe, maybe not. Metalurgy is not an easy thing to figure out, it takes time and it takes a lot of testing. The Italians have been doing this for a long time and as such have had a whole lot of time to figure it out. I know that the metal used in our cranks is a composition that the factory has to special order from the forgery. So in essence the steel fomulation is not a standard production formula and it is blended and forged specifically for the factory and has huge lead times.

Originally Posted by BigInJapan View Post
And DLC has nothing to do with the metallurgy anyway, it's a coating, not a metal.
Isn't that what we are talking about lol? DLC is a coating that is applied to a metal specifically to address shortcomings of the material.

Originally Posted by BigInJapan View Post
Would OS just ignore it and whack on a coating. Also, they offer engines without DLC, and I have very rarely heard cranks snapping or wearing too fast even on those.
If you've been in the hobby for a while then you know the biggest issue that OS had with their off-road engines back in the late 90's/early 2000's was premature crank pin wear.

Originally Posted by BigInJapan View Post
Also why coat a whole crank if it is just the pin wearing?
Simply because you can not just coat the pin, DLC coating is applied using a CVD (chemical vapor deposition) process. In essence the entire part is placed inside a vacume chamber where the coating is applied.

Originally Posted by BigInJapan View Post
Also, the Italians are starting to use DLC on stuff like backplates, for less wear.
Crank pins were being discused specifically so one has nothing to do with the other. DLC coating backplates, machining the back plate down and installing circular steel inserts or other composite inserts have been done for a while. That is being done to specifically address another potential problem area which it abrasive wear and introduction of metal particles into the engine (which can affect P/S life) from the rod rubbing against the back plate.

Originally Posted by BigInJapan View Post
And while on Italians, their metallurgy isnt that dialed either, as conrods seem to be made of butter in some engines.
I believe we were talking about crankshafts, not con rods and I think that you will find that if you actuall check the Rockwell Hardness of the parts the vast majority of the Italian made cranks are significantly harder than those produced in Asia

Originally Posted by BigInJapan View Post
Pricewise, I would still pay for one of your B6Pro's with 20-30 on top of current pricing if it had DCL crank.
Thank you, I apprecaite you saying that. In all honesty though as I mentioned there would be no benefit to you for me to offer DLC coating. As I mentioned our cranks will last 4+ engine rebuilds. engines nowadays have almost become consumeables as they are so cheap. People now just pinch the sleeve once or replace their engine when it wears out. The vast majority of people do not rebuild their engines 3,4,5 times like we used to do in the past when a motor was $400-$500 and DLC coated cranks were first introduced. Back in the days say you had a JP Modified OS once the engine was done you would pull the crank and put it in your next OS engine and keep on doing that. Nowadays people just toss their engines and buy another one!

Originally Posted by BigInJapan View Post
Also, Hudy is able to offer high quality and ceramics and DLC for 100-150 less than the current Speeds.
At roughly $359 street they should be able to, that's about $75 over what our B6-Pro goes for so I too can easily add DLC coating and match or beat that price.

Originally Posted by BigInJapan View Post
I guess I just agree, that cranks should be DLCoated
Everyone is entitled to their own oppinion on things. I think that if there is no benefit to an engine having it that the majority of people would rather have the extra $50-$75 to spend on tires, fuel, race entry of even to buy something to eat rather than just have a DLC coated crank because it looks nice. If it adresses a problem with an engine then fine, if it is being done just to do then it's a marketing thing imho.
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Old 04-09-2015, 07:21 AM
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I agree that O.S. cranks were a little softer than the Italian motors. My old VZ-b V-specs would wear at the crank pin after about 10 gallons. I replace my air filters several times throughout the day at the track and get a lot of life out of my motors. I also had a blue headed V-spec that had 16 gallons on it and the pilot shaft where the clutch bell bearings ride was worn down about .002"-.003" making the clutch bell wobble. The addition of the DLC coating on the cranks was a welcomed change for me. I've also had the problem of the pilot shafts wearing on my Nova motors too after about 15 gallons, but the cranks did hold up better than the non-coated OS cranks. Personally, I do like the DLC coating on the cranks as the coating does add significant life to the crank. My JP mod V-spec was a great motor and I also believe OS based their Speed on this motor.
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