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New break-in method

Old 12-31-2017, 12:34 PM
  #76  
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I guess lazy humans bother me. That’s why I don’t get it. It makes perfect sense now!

Now I return you to your normally scheduled racing mantra. I am still old school.
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Old 12-31-2017, 12:39 PM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by SlowLST2
I guess lazy humans bother me. Thatís why I donít get it. It makes perfect sense now!

Now I return you to your normally scheduled racing mantra. I am still old school.
i am old school as well but sometimes guys do not want to take the time it takes to properly seat an engine in and fit the components by a "heat cycle" method and allowing the fitted parts to expand and contract together as a whole . these engines do require a bit of time to do so .... guys are willing to purchase a break in .... plain n simple ... makes their life easier and gets them up to racing speed much faster
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Old 12-31-2017, 12:45 PM
  #78  
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I don’t see how the machine breaks the engine in though. That’s my whole stink. Someone else driving my engine around in a truck or buggy and such, sure. That I buy. Not the machine. It stinks of snake oil.

Something else I find skepticism in - heat cycling. This is a real thing to do - for Ferrous engines. ABC/AAC Engines do not benefit from this process. If anything, starting an ABx engine up from cold repeatedly causes more harm than good. Starting warm and staying warm throughout has always proved to work well. Like-new pinch at over 2 gallons.

I’m just trying to understand this hype-y stuff that is “all the rage” in the racing world that doesn’t jive with most folks in any other facet of the hobby. You should have seen the stink the airplane guys raised when they got wind of this EBIS. I defended it for a time until I looked into it and thought about it more.

Some good reading here. http://adriansmodelaeroengines.com/c....php?cat_id=99
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Old 12-31-2017, 01:13 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by SlowLST2
Roelof - I read plenty.
Probably not, otherwise you you should have known it is not a full break in process and because of the permanent grow of the piston when you really start the engine gives enough room to end the break in process

Originally Posted by SlowLST2
Tapered components like a ringless aluminum piston in a plated bore will fit themselves with use much like an iron piston work hardens from use. ABx engines survive by a different principle than Ferrous engines do, but it still comes down to running the thing in its intended environment - with combustion pressure.
Did yoy measure and calculate the taper? Do it and see it is not that huge you think.
Why is running in its environment needed? You were talking about the load and so the wear on the rod under the combustion and comperssion pressure. What load on low speed (so low G-forces) and no compression/combustion in a 100% full lubrication. You can run the motor in the EBIS for many years without getting (a wrong) wear on the rod.
Regarding the P/S set, as mentioned, it is no full break in process.
Oh, about G-forces, do the math and you will see that at 40.000+rpm the load on the crankpin can go beyond 100kg, that is making the load on the rod.

Originally Posted by SlowLST2
I still donít see it the benefits.. But thats okay guys. I get it. Like they say - thereís more than one way to skin a cat (and make money).
That you do not see the bennefit does not mean it is a hoax and need to talk bad about it. As Adam Drake is using it as also Rody Roem and many other top drivers and engine specialists says enough I think. But you should know that if you did your research.
Engine Break-in service by Adam Drake

And the benefit:
- can do it any time
- saves a rodreplacement after a traditional break in
- saves a set of tires
- saves a lot of fuel
- gives more practise time on the track
- save anoyed fellow drivers running your car as a driving chicane
- it even saves you a glowplug

Originally Posted by SlowLST2
Makes a guy wonder why the world class pylon aircraft racers never used such a system to run their engines in... Heck, some of them would intentionally shaft run their engine for a few seconds and that literally would give them the edge over the traditionally treated engines..
[/QUOTE]

The same question why so many stockcar drivers travel with suitcase like starterboxes: because they do not know otherwise and beside that, for sure in onroad racing you need more engines and have to break in more engines than in other (lower rpm range) classes.

Originally Posted by SlowLST2
I donít see how the machine breaks the engine in though. Thatís my whole stink. Someone else driving my engine around in a truck or buggy and such, sure. That I buy. Not the machine. It stinks of snake oil.

Something else I find skepticism in - heat cycling. This is a real thing to do - for Ferrous engines. ABC/AAC Engines do not benefit from this process. If anything, starting an ABx engine up from cold repeatedly causes more harm than good. Starting warm and staying warm throughout has always proved to work well. Like-new pinch at over 2 gallons.

Iím just trying to understand this hype-y stuff that is ďall the rageĒ in the racing world.
Again, that you do not see it it does not mean it is an hoax.
You do not have to buy it. Yes, the price may be a bit high but do a calculation of all the parts with the quality and you will see it is not cheap in the components. Add all the work and taxes to it and you know the real price. And hey, you talk like a professional technician, so make one! I did make several and all guys using them love it.
But you know nothing about heating materials, just do a search of how a samurai sword is comming to its bended shape, this effect is also hapening with the piston and then you probably get more insight of an heatcycle.....
But there are 1001 ways to break in an engine and all work.
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Old 12-31-2017, 01:51 PM
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Yep. I totally get it now. Thanks for confirming my suspicions Roelof.
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Old 12-31-2017, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by SlowLST2
Yep. I totally get it now. Thanks for confirming my suspicions Roelof.
He literally confirmed 0 of your suspicions?
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Old 12-31-2017, 04:23 PM
  #82  
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Well, i do see what the fuzz of EBIS is about. I would very much like a machine. I have lapped pistons and made a tool for that, and it really works. You basicaly grinds the piston down. The big challenge with lapping, is you need to learn how the piston material of the manufactorer works and expand. I have seen some chemical analasys of piston materieals and there is quite a big difference in what blend of metals used in the pistons. If you take of to much, the fit will be loose even if you had a nice pinch after you have finished lapping. After you finish breaking in while running the engine in your car it can still be that you lapped to much, and here is why:

One thing is that the piston expands after the first start as Relof says so it can get a slightly tighter fit. Espesially one Italian manufactor has this kind of material. But, after running for a coupple og tanks of fuel, the fit can still be to loose after you grind down the honing in the sylinder.

When using EBIS, you will now ( after some experience ofcoarse) when to stop the prosess. (as you have an instrument messring the current of the motor driving the engine). When using EBIS, you grind down both piston and sleeve at the same time so you have better control of whats happening.

in my view and with no experience of using the EBIS, you still ned to learn how the different engine manufactors piston material works and how it expends after the initial heat up/running prosess of the engine. When you have that experience, the EBIS will be a very very good tool.

I would gladley buy and use the EBIS as my lapped engines last longer, runs better and use less fuel than the engines i have ran in, in differnet ways for the last 20 years of running nitro buggies. Lapping the piston have one advantage that EBIS do not have, but i would gladly sacrafice it fore an EBis machine :-)
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Old 12-31-2017, 04:28 PM
  #83  
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I think Its a lost cause Roelof, SlowLST2 probably has made his mind up, not based on any technical knowledge, but rather because he thinks it is Dumb....

Its OK SlowLST2, no one here is making you buy one, or the service... or am i wrong here?

It has been tested and proven, by engine builders, racers, engineers and so on....if that is too technical to understand, then i would understand how you can not read hrough these pages and make sense of it.

Break engines in how you like, but dont go around saying stuff is smoke and mirrors, if you are not adept enough to prove us all wrong! Do you have an EBIS? No? So you really dont know! then he people that do chime in, and what? they are.all wrong??? Come'on who you kidding?

Last edited by 1/8 IC Fan; 12-31-2017 at 04:59 PM. Reason: To sound nicer
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Old 12-31-2017, 05:14 PM
  #84  
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What has been proven to me thus far is its basically a fancy and expensive piston lapping machine. Cheaper than some lathes, but far more complicated.

Where are the engineers, manufacturers, builders (which are manufacturers, right?)? I’d like Novarossi or OS (for example) to weigh in - have they ever? Just curious if this voids the warranty?

Last edited by RCTecher12; 12-31-2017 at 05:50 PM. Reason: Fixed typo.
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Old 12-31-2017, 05:35 PM
  #85  
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The Rossi family has one. All Reds engines come ran in their EBIS machine. I have ran over 200 through mine and have great success. Plus I have been messing around with oil lapping since 2009. I have been modifying engines for 22 yeasrs and talk to many customers and worked to test parts for. I'm not saying there isn't another way to do break in but the EBIS is a great tool for the job. Not to mention I have helped over 20 people build homemade oil systems.as long as you take your time any method will work for breaking in a engine. But I prefer to set in my leather chair watching tv with my feet up while my EBIS works for me. Especially when it's. -10 degrees outside.
AMR Engines facebook.com -BRABO Rc -EBIS
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Old 12-31-2017, 05:47 PM
  #86  
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Problem on these (and all other) forums is that there are a lot of people with a lack of technical knowledge talking about stuff as if they are professors with the highest degree. As long they are heard and people like their posts (see my link to his another topic post) they are strong with telling their crap. Sadly with no contradiction it will be read as the truth by others.....
As for me I also do not know it all but I make stuff to find out and for many years involved with an engine devellopment at a smal metal workshop I have learned a lot more about metals than I allready have learned at the technical schools I have followed.

Sceptic about EBIS, that is an normal opinion. Telling it is crap and can not work without any experience or even some reading about who and what is just a bad behavour, with showing all the knowledge and at the same time not knowing what heat and cooling does to the molecules in metals is just too stupid.

I just would advise SlowLST2 just to send an engine to Adam Drake or one of the many other EBIS break in services and give it a try or else just to shut up talking about the unbelieve of this way of an engine break in. If it did not work I would also tell but the results after the machine are imperssive and with just 2 tanks fast break in on the track finishing it makes me very happy, not just me but also the rubber wheel and motors of my starter box.

And yes, no one is forcing anyone to buy one. I am also no fan of expensive stuff if it is not needed or it can be purchased or made cheaper. Read my building topic, is has all the info about how it must work with even a component list. Rbakker (who has started this) has made a 50 euro EBIS like system. Not that fancy with a simple frame and a tea cup but it works as in my topic more people with homebuild machines show their results. I think it is proove enough that it works.
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Last edited by Roelof; 12-31-2017 at 06:07 PM.
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Old 12-31-2017, 06:01 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by SlowLST2
What has been proven to me thus far is its basically a fancy and expensive piston lapping machine. Cheaper than some lathes, but far more complicated.

Where are the engineers, manufacturers, builders (which are manufacturers, right?)? Iíd like Novarossi or OS (for example) to weigh in - have they ever? Just curious if this voids the warranty?
It is indeed a piston lapping machine but with the piston in its sleeve with a lot of lubrication giving a much better result and control than lapping a piston outside the sleeve.

Here a resut from Rody Roem. He is the founder of RB engines and later the Tecnopower engines.
Rody VS Racing Engines - Onroad Motors
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Old 01-01-2018, 03:13 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by SlowLST2
What has been proven to me thus far is its basically a fancy and expensive piston lapping machine. Cheaper than some lathes, but far more complicated.

Where are the engineers, manufacturers, builders (which are manufacturers, right?)? Iíd like Novarossi or OS (for example) to weigh in - have they ever? Just curious if this voids the warranty?
i do know how novarossi breaks them in at the factory ... 30k+ rpms high oil content for 30-45min ..... theyre broke in alright .... lol
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Old 01-02-2018, 04:19 AM
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Amazing people complain about companies making crap we all buy n don't need but someone makes an engine break in machine and it's all of a sudden a gimmick. Let me ask you a question, do u think all that integy aluminum hop ups a lot of us waisted money buying is better then a machine breaking in your engines? Yes. Why? Let's see, Adam drake has a business specifically to break in engines with this machine, if that doesn't say enough then lets talk about a new engine, when you get it you will notice the piston when new will not turn over because of pinch, I don't no about you but I don't like trying to start engines when they are that tite, u end up messing rod bushings. Eliminating that is alone worth sending engines in. Not to mention its in a highly lubricated warm bath, again much better for a brand new engine then just starting it up when that tite. I would imagine this machine doesn't do all the work, you still need to do a few tanks once you get it but imo I would feel much better about breaking an engine in that has been ran threw the ebis system first just because it's Forsure ahead of the breakin curve and going to b easier on the rod no matter what. To what extent idk but it's better.
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Old 01-02-2018, 11:35 AM
  #90  
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How do you quantify the results of using the system?
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