clutch Weights
02-08-2012, 07:24 AM
#1
clutch Weights
I've been search for a chart showing all the different clutches and their weights I've passed through almost all the clutches on amain no detailed information on weights would be nice I feel its important. Only company I know that shows clutch weight is M2C.
Do you guys just run what's available how do you determine what clutch to use.
So you have a clutch a know the weight please post
Do you guys just run what's available how do you determine what clutch to use.
So you have a clutch a know the weight please post
02-08-2012, 08:32 AM
#2
Here's the problem - the overall weight of the shoe is not useful, and a very high precision scale is needed to distinguish one from the other. The only weight that matters is "hanging" weight with one end suspended on a pin, much in the same way it would be mounted as a clutch shoe. The overall weight will tell you nothing about the clutch performance.
02-08-2012, 09:35 AM
#3
Here's the problem - the overall weight of the shoe is not useful, and a very high precision scale is needed to distinguish one from the other. The only weight that matters is "hanging" weight with one end suspended on a pin, much in the same way it would be mounted as a clutch shoe. The overall weight will tell you nothing about the clutch performance.
02-08-2012, 09:53 AM
#4
Clutch
Think about it the heavier a clutch is the harder it is for the motor to rotate. Meaning it will calm down acceleration. But if you get to a blue grooved track you might not want that.
02-08-2012, 10:07 AM
#5
Here's the problem - the overall weight of the shoe is not useful, and a very high precision scale is needed to distinguish one from the other. The only weight that matters is "hanging" weight with one end suspended on a pin, much in the same way it would be mounted as a clutch shoe. The overall weight will tell you nothing about the clutch performance.
To answer the original question; let me see if I can get Mitch at M2C to post comparative weights on here.
02-08-2012, 11:58 AM
#6
Tech Addict
clutch and flywheel weights
First and formost I am not downgrading any company or their products in the post.
What we have found out in our research about clutches.
It does make a big difference as to what clutches and flywheels you run for
different tracks
It also makes a difference as to what the power of the motor is.
With the technology we have seen in the past 5 years on motors and the
reduced wieght of the vehichles, it is becoming super important as to what
your clutch is doing and how it is set up.
I know pizza cutter tires coming out of a turn looks awsome, but that means that you are burning up a set of $50.00 tires for no good reason.
Having controlable power is what we all strive for.
When the first losi buggy came out with their 4 shoe clutch system it was aluminum and weighed,with my scales at about 17 grams. The clutch shoes themselves weigh about 1 gram. this was much lighter system than most of us had been running and it made driving the buggy very difficult for some guys.
The amount of pressure that this (1) gram shoe puts on a clutch bell is less than a clutch shoe that weighs 1.5 grams causing it to slip more before locking down the clutch bell.
Losi later release the steel flywheel weight(around 26 grams) and has more
success in controlling tire spin but in many cases the guys still run carbon shoes to help control wheel spin.
The distance that a shoe travels from the rest position the the enguagement of the clutch bell has something to do with how strong of a spring you have to run in order for the clutch not to bog the motor down.
remember also that the more a clutch system slips the more heat you genterate in the clutch shoes and springs and motor and the more fuel you burn.
weights of the different flywheels we have to measure:
keep in mind that these are approximate wieghts from my scale
yours may be different.
all models are with aluminum shoes
losi aluminum 4 shoe 17 grams
losi steel 4 shoe 24 grams
mugen 3 shoe 19.5 grams
kyosho 34mm 3 shoe 21.5
serpent 32mm 4 shoe 19.5
m2c racing 4 shoe variable weight aluminum empty 18.0 grams
fully loaded 23.0 grams
m2cracing steel flywheel wieght 4 shoe variable weight empty 31.5 grams
fully loaded with all screws 36.5 grams
I don't have the information on any other system but most 3 shoe systems
weight at about 20 grams.
The initial pull out of the corner ( the first 3 to 5 feet is very critical to
good lap times, and being able to control the spool up is where the PRO'S
usually make us all look slow.
Can you tell a difference in flywheel weights?
according to our testers you can tell in as little as 1 gram
We also have had sportsman drivers test the difference between aluminum
and steel and all have stated the the steel models make the vehicle much
more controllable out of the corners and more fun to drive.
What we have found out in our research about clutches.
It does make a big difference as to what clutches and flywheels you run for
different tracks
It also makes a difference as to what the power of the motor is.
With the technology we have seen in the past 5 years on motors and the
reduced wieght of the vehichles, it is becoming super important as to what
your clutch is doing and how it is set up.
I know pizza cutter tires coming out of a turn looks awsome, but that means that you are burning up a set of $50.00 tires for no good reason.
Having controlable power is what we all strive for.
When the first losi buggy came out with their 4 shoe clutch system it was aluminum and weighed,with my scales at about 17 grams. The clutch shoes themselves weigh about 1 gram. this was much lighter system than most of us had been running and it made driving the buggy very difficult for some guys.
The amount of pressure that this (1) gram shoe puts on a clutch bell is less than a clutch shoe that weighs 1.5 grams causing it to slip more before locking down the clutch bell.
Losi later release the steel flywheel weight(around 26 grams) and has more
success in controlling tire spin but in many cases the guys still run carbon shoes to help control wheel spin.
The distance that a shoe travels from the rest position the the enguagement of the clutch bell has something to do with how strong of a spring you have to run in order for the clutch not to bog the motor down.
remember also that the more a clutch system slips the more heat you genterate in the clutch shoes and springs and motor and the more fuel you burn.
weights of the different flywheels we have to measure:
keep in mind that these are approximate wieghts from my scale
yours may be different.
all models are with aluminum shoes
losi aluminum 4 shoe 17 grams
losi steel 4 shoe 24 grams
mugen 3 shoe 19.5 grams
kyosho 34mm 3 shoe 21.5
serpent 32mm 4 shoe 19.5
m2c racing 4 shoe variable weight aluminum empty 18.0 grams
fully loaded 23.0 grams
m2cracing steel flywheel wieght 4 shoe variable weight empty 31.5 grams
fully loaded with all screws 36.5 grams
I don't have the information on any other system but most 3 shoe systems
weight at about 20 grams.
The initial pull out of the corner ( the first 3 to 5 feet is very critical to
good lap times, and being able to control the spool up is where the PRO'S
usually make us all look slow.
Can you tell a difference in flywheel weights?
according to our testers you can tell in as little as 1 gram
We also have had sportsman drivers test the difference between aluminum
and steel and all have stated the the steel models make the vehicle much
more controllable out of the corners and more fun to drive.
02-08-2012, 02:22 PM
#7
Thanks Mitch and Joey didnt want to be rude but I know weight has a big role.
Im a M2C user been for many years love the fact its adjustable. I was hoping someone had the werks 4 shoe weights. I wanted to see their weight since they have some 3-4 clutchs pending on the users needs.. The m2c save the racer a lot of money now you have a steel clutch which covers the whole curve.
Some people just slap on a clutch but it has a huge role. Im always changing my weights and springs acccording to condition OMG the new clutch setup Mitch is awesome so much better then before its saves a lot of time > Load and lock
If anyone has addtional weights please post.
Im a M2C user been for many years love the fact its adjustable. I was hoping someone had the werks 4 shoe weights. I wanted to see their weight since they have some 3-4 clutchs pending on the users needs.. The m2c save the racer a lot of money now you have a steel clutch which covers the whole curve.
Some people just slap on a clutch but it has a huge role. Im always changing my weights and springs acccording to condition OMG the new clutch setup Mitch is awesome so much better then before its saves a lot of time > Load and lock
If anyone has addtional weights please post.
02-09-2012, 08:24 PM
#8
OK, let me expand on this to make this more clear...
If the weight of the shoe is being used for comparison, then eliminating the common components (the "all other things remaining the same" stuff) is essential to establishing which shoe is "heaviest" with respect to the manner in which it will engage. The total weight of the shoe is not useful in this discussion because it doesn't contribute to the forces being applied to the clutch bell as the engine acceleration increases. Two shoes made from the same material and with an identical overall weight will engage very differently, and produce very different results as a result of its construction.
This has never had anything to do with any brand. It's good to see a brand giving their customer more information. I've been running nitro cars since 1978 and have been in the business for 25 years. I'm very well aware of the benefits and importance of the clutch, and what parts of the discussion are important and which are not.
If the weight of the shoe is being used for comparison, then eliminating the common components (the "all other things remaining the same" stuff) is essential to establishing which shoe is "heaviest" with respect to the manner in which it will engage. The total weight of the shoe is not useful in this discussion because it doesn't contribute to the forces being applied to the clutch bell as the engine acceleration increases. Two shoes made from the same material and with an identical overall weight will engage very differently, and produce very different results as a result of its construction.
This has never had anything to do with any brand. It's good to see a brand giving their customer more information. I've been running nitro cars since 1978 and have been in the business for 25 years. I'm very well aware of the benefits and importance of the clutch, and what parts of the discussion are important and which are not.
02-09-2012, 10:59 PM
#9
bigjayjay1 the weights of our clutches on my scale is as follows:
Super Light= 18g
Light= 24g
Medium= 34g
Heavy= 44g
Obviously as you know the different flywheel weights are a means to alter how your engine spools up which is beneficial when trying to tailor the power delivery of your motor to the traction available. Obviously there are a lot of factors that play a role in the design of a clutch, not just the overall weight of the overall assembly.
I think that one of the key factors that we have paid attention to which is especially critical as you start looking at the heavier weight flywheels is centralizing the majority of the mass as close to the point of rotation as possible. In a nutshell this means getting as much of the overall weight of the clutch assembly as close to the rotation point (crankshaft) as possible. This is significantly advantageous because it allows for the increased weight to do what it is supposed to do, calm the engine down by reducing the spool up speed of the engine while minimalizing the tendency for it to cause the clutch to run on due to centrifugal forces/inertia which is a negative side effect of heavier weight flywheels. As mentioned we do this by centralizing the majority of the mass on the flywheel as the further out the weight of the flywheel is, the more centrifugal force it creates meaning that it will not decelerate as quickly.
In a nutshell this means that when you let off the throttle inertia caused by the outwardly lying mass makes it takes longer for the flywheel to slow down to a point where the springs generate enough force to overcome the centrifugal force acting on the clutch shoes making them disengage from the clutch bell. The net effect of this is that it makes the engine feel like it is running on when the car is in the air going over jumps making it more difficult to level the car and also creating issues when trying to slow down for corners as the car will again feel like the engine is running on.
I have gone into a bit more depth about this than I think most people are interested in lol but this just gives you one example of the factors that have to be kept in mind or at the least considered when developing a clutch system.
Super Light= 18g
Light= 24g
Medium= 34g
Heavy= 44g
Obviously as you know the different flywheel weights are a means to alter how your engine spools up which is beneficial when trying to tailor the power delivery of your motor to the traction available. Obviously there are a lot of factors that play a role in the design of a clutch, not just the overall weight of the overall assembly.
I think that one of the key factors that we have paid attention to which is especially critical as you start looking at the heavier weight flywheels is centralizing the majority of the mass as close to the point of rotation as possible. In a nutshell this means getting as much of the overall weight of the clutch assembly as close to the rotation point (crankshaft) as possible. This is significantly advantageous because it allows for the increased weight to do what it is supposed to do, calm the engine down by reducing the spool up speed of the engine while minimalizing the tendency for it to cause the clutch to run on due to centrifugal forces/inertia which is a negative side effect of heavier weight flywheels. As mentioned we do this by centralizing the majority of the mass on the flywheel as the further out the weight of the flywheel is, the more centrifugal force it creates meaning that it will not decelerate as quickly.
In a nutshell this means that when you let off the throttle inertia caused by the outwardly lying mass makes it takes longer for the flywheel to slow down to a point where the springs generate enough force to overcome the centrifugal force acting on the clutch shoes making them disengage from the clutch bell. The net effect of this is that it makes the engine feel like it is running on when the car is in the air going over jumps making it more difficult to level the car and also creating issues when trying to slow down for corners as the car will again feel like the engine is running on.
I have gone into a bit more depth about this than I think most people are interested in lol but this just gives you one example of the factors that have to be kept in mind or at the least considered when developing a clutch system.
02-10-2012, 02:00 PM
#10
bigjayjay1 the weights of our clutches on my scale is as follows:
Super Light= 18g
Light= 24g
Medium= 34g
Heavy= 44g
Obviously as you know the different flywheel weights are a means to alter how your engine spools up which is beneficial when trying to tailor the power delivery of your motor to the traction available. Obviously there are a lot of factors that play a role in the design of a clutch, not just the overall weight of the overall assembly.
I think that one of the key factors that we have paid attention to which is especially critical as you start looking at the heavier weight flywheels is centralizing the majority of the mass as close to the point of rotation as possible. In a nutshell this means getting as much of the overall weight of the clutch assembly as close to the rotation point (crankshaft) as possible. This is significantly advantageous because it allows for the increased weight to do what it is supposed to do, calm the engine down by reducing the spool up speed of the engine while minimalizing the tendency for it to cause the clutch to run on due to centrifugal forces/inertia which is a negative side effect of heavier weight flywheels. As mentioned we do this by centralizing the majority of the mass on the flywheel as the further out the weight of the flywheel is, the more centrifugal force it creates meaning that it will not decelerate as quickly.
In a nutshell this means that when you let off the throttle inertia caused by the outwardly lying mass makes it takes longer for the flywheel to slow down to a point where the springs generate enough force to overcome the centrifugal force acting on the clutch shoes making them disengage from the clutch bell. The net effect of this is that it makes the engine feel like it is running on when the car is in the air going over jumps making it more difficult to level the car and also creating issues when trying to slow down for corners as the car will again feel like the engine is running on.
I have gone into a bit more depth about this than I think most people are interested in lol but this just gives you one example of the factors that have to be kept in mind or at the least considered when developing a clutch system.
Super Light= 18g
Light= 24g
Medium= 34g
Heavy= 44g
Obviously as you know the different flywheel weights are a means to alter how your engine spools up which is beneficial when trying to tailor the power delivery of your motor to the traction available. Obviously there are a lot of factors that play a role in the design of a clutch, not just the overall weight of the overall assembly.
I think that one of the key factors that we have paid attention to which is especially critical as you start looking at the heavier weight flywheels is centralizing the majority of the mass as close to the point of rotation as possible. In a nutshell this means getting as much of the overall weight of the clutch assembly as close to the rotation point (crankshaft) as possible. This is significantly advantageous because it allows for the increased weight to do what it is supposed to do, calm the engine down by reducing the spool up speed of the engine while minimalizing the tendency for it to cause the clutch to run on due to centrifugal forces/inertia which is a negative side effect of heavier weight flywheels. As mentioned we do this by centralizing the majority of the mass on the flywheel as the further out the weight of the flywheel is, the more centrifugal force it creates meaning that it will not decelerate as quickly.
In a nutshell this means that when you let off the throttle inertia caused by the outwardly lying mass makes it takes longer for the flywheel to slow down to a point where the springs generate enough force to overcome the centrifugal force acting on the clutch shoes making them disengage from the clutch bell. The net effect of this is that it makes the engine feel like it is running on when the car is in the air going over jumps making it more difficult to level the car and also creating issues when trying to slow down for corners as the car will again feel like the engine is running on.
I have gone into a bit more depth about this than I think most people are interested in lol but this just gives you one example of the factors that have to be kept in mind or at the least considered when developing a clutch system.
02-10-2012, 05:03 PM
#11
So again as you can see from the above, knowing the weight of a flywheel really does not tell you how that flywheel is going to perform compared to the one that you currently are using even though it might be lighter or heavier.
02-11-2012, 09:01 AM
#12
Not a problem. The catch though is you can not directly compare say one 24 gram clutch system to another 24 gram clutch system because even though they may have the same overall weight it is where the weight is positioned on the flywheel that is key! So if you have a 24mm weight clutch system with the majority of the weight centralized around the pivot point i.e. the crankshaft then it is going to have less inertia than a clutch system that has a lot of weight positioned close to the outside edge of the flywheel. So comparing the two the 24 gram clutch system with the weight centralized is going to feel like a lighter weight system (say a 17 gram set up) while the version with the weight positioned around the edge of the flywheel will act like a heavier weight system (say a 30+ gram set up). ***(please note that the numbers in brackets are just guestimates that I'm using to help get my point across)***
So again as you can see from the above, knowing the weight of a flywheel really does not tell you how that flywheel is going to perform compared to the one that you currently are using even though it might be lighter or heavier.
So again as you can see from the above, knowing the weight of a flywheel really does not tell you how that flywheel is going to perform compared to the one that you currently are using even though it might be lighter or heavier.
02-11-2012, 09:44 AM
#13
I don't agree with your last statement maybe both clutch will act differently due to centralized weight but knowing the weights is still important regardless I'm sure a 17 and 26 gram clutch will show different performance traits people have in clue what their buying cause most manufacture don't add weights in their descriptions
How about if I give you a .19, can it have more bottom end than a .21? Possibly because we know that displacement is only one factor that affects performance. Is it possible that a.19 can have more top end than a .28? Yes it can, it all depends on the designs. See what I'm getting at????? It's the same with clutches where weight is just like the displacement of an engine. One small factor in the design where the "overall design" (not one single design element) dictates the ultimate performance characteristics of the product!
02-11-2012, 10:56 AM
#14
Then we can agree to disagree lol! Knowing the weight of a clutch system is just like knowing the displacement of an engine. If I hand you 3 prototype engines and tell you that they all have a displacement of .21 CI can you tell me anything about how they are all going to perform? Probably not because the displacement is only 1 part of the design which affect performance right?
How about if I give you a .19, can it have more bottom end than a .21? Possibly because we know that displacement is only one factor that affects performance. Is it possible that a.19 can have more top end than a .28? Yes it can, it all depends on the designs. See what I'm getting at????? It's the same with clutches where weight is just like the displacement of an engine. One small factor in the design where the "overall design" (not one single design element) dictates the ultimate performance characteristics of the product!
How about if I give you a .19, can it have more bottom end than a .21? Possibly because we know that displacement is only one factor that affects performance. Is it possible that a.19 can have more top end than a .28? Yes it can, it all depends on the designs. See what I'm getting at????? It's the same with clutches where weight is just like the displacement of an engine. One small factor in the design where the "overall design" (not one single design element) dictates the ultimate performance characteristics of the product!
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