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New Novarossi .21 Toro Nero 7Ports

Old 08-25-2010, 05:47 PM
  #196  
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Originally Posted by kgombe
then why do they have the same part numbers... is it a running change.. or what do you mean by crank timing.. not an expert in that department...
thats novarossi and just how they do it

timing is less advanced on crank intake , dont know exact degrees of timing change but it is a good bit .

crank intake timing in a nutshell - to advance intake timing the leading edge of the intake window is opened until optimal timing of fuel/air intake is achieved , this creates top end performance and decreases low end throttle response as fuel/air is entering the crankcase before the piston is in the right part of the stroke to utilize the fuel/air mixture .

the overall duration of the timing in the crank can have an effect on the top end performance if there is too much duration in the crank intake opening by flooding the ports too long .

its a tricky balance that all companies play with until they get the performance/feel out of their engines , novarossi has it perfected for their bore x stroke combination that the 1500X series of cranks fit

thats why the killer runtimes and smooth as silk performance while not being underpowered or feeling soft .




the toro nero is a relatively new bore x stroke combination for novarossi that pretty much no other engine manufacturer has really played with (to my knowledge) and there will be perpetual changes to provide the best possible performance from the engine


happy motorin',
monty
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Old 08-25-2010, 05:58 PM
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So if I got you correctly the old crank cant be modified to obtain the new timming - right?
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Old 08-25-2010, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by houston
thats novarossi and just how they do it

timing is less advanced on crank intake , dont know exact degrees of timing change but it is a good bit .

crank intake timing in a nutshell - to advance intake timing the leading edge of the intake window is opened until optimal timing of fuel/air intake is achieved , this creates top end performance and decreases low end throttle response as fuel/air is entering the crankcase before the piston is in the right part of the stroke to utilize the fuel/air mixture .

the overall duration of the timing in the crank can have an effect on the top end performance if there is too much duration in the crank intake opening by flooding the ports too long .

its a tricky balance that all companies play with until they get the performance/feel out of their engines , novarossi has it perfected for their bore x stroke combination that the 1500X series of cranks fit

thats why the killer runtimes and smooth as silk performance while not being underpowered or feeling soft .




the toro nero is a relatively new bore x stroke combination for novarossi that pretty much no other engine manufacturer has really played with (to my knowledge) and there will be perpetual changes to provide the best possible performance from the engine


happy motorin',
monty
i guess i got it... .. i went away from Nova for a few years.. from since the first P5.. but im back now and these engines are to my liking... either way i like em.. im bout to break in a plus4 C done by RB... see how it goes...
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Old 08-25-2010, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by maxflo777
So if I got you correctly the old crank cant be modified to obtain the new timming - right?
its very advanced

i guess with a welder fill in material

you can reshim to .65-.70mm on underhead , use a cool plug and 30,35 or 40% fuel

oh and fill the crank , all three of these things will result in more low end throttle response along with proper pipe and clutching
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Old 08-25-2010, 06:35 PM
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the real question is .. do you have any of these cranks.... :-)
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Old 08-26-2010, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by maxflo777
So if I got you correctly the old crank cant be modified to obtain the new timming - right?
You sure can. The old crank had a total duration of 207 degrees and the team crank has a duration of 215. Where it opens and closes is key and the old crank has more than enough meat to advance the timing to where it likes to be. I advance the timing even further so both engines need timing advancement, the team just doesn't need as much. The exhaust port timing on the sleeve is the same as far as the boosters are concerned but what they did with the team engine is raise the main port up so the boosters are not the sole supporters of the blowdown timing as long so the exhaust port has more surface area sooner resulting in better scavaging giving the engine more breathability which gives it a stronger powerband throughout. I also raise the timing on the exhaust to compliment the crank timing advancements to give the engine a very solid overall feel.

As Monty mentioned, filling the crank is also key to giving the engine more throttle response on the low end. It also assists with the induction flow characteristics and if done right will aid in mileage gains. Now the trick is how much and at what angle the fill should be. I have experimented with several variations and have found a great filling technique that not only flows the charge better, but also compliments the tapered run out of the crank to keep charge velocities up to where the engine responds extremely well on and off power. Nothing worse than losing velocity and it taking too long to build fuel signal again so the engine can respond and come on power.

With the addition of the new piston and lowered head, it is an all around nice package from factory and a real weapon after modifications if done correctly.
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Old 08-26-2010, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by PowerHouse
You sure can. The old crank had a total duration of 207 degrees and the team crank has a duration of 215. Where it opens and closes is key and the old crank has more than enough meat to advance the timing to where it likes to be. I advance the timing even further so both engines need timing advancement, the team just doesn't need as much. The exhaust port timing on the sleeve is the same as far as the boosters are concerned but what they did with the team engine is raise the main port up so the boosters are not the sole supporters of the blowdown timing as long so the exhaust port has more surface area sooner resulting in better scavaging giving the engine more breathability which gives it a stronger powerband throughout. I also raise the timing on the exhaust to compliment the crank timing advancements to give the engine a very solid overall feel.

As Monty mentioned, filling the crank is also key to giving the engine more throttle response on the low end. It also assists with the induction flow characteristics and if done right will aid in mileage gains. Now the trick is how much and at what angle the fill should be. I have experimented with several variations and have found a great filling technique that not only flows the charge better, but also compliments the tapered run out of the crank to keep charge velocities up to where the engine responds extremely well on and off power. Nothing worse than losing velocity and it taking too long to build fuel signal again so the engine can respond and come on power.

With the addition of the new piston and lowered head, it is an all around nice package from factory and a real weapon after modifications if done correctly.
not disputing you know what you're talking about but how do you decrease the advanced timing on the crank ?

you can however extend the duration of the incoming fuel but this will not effect the beginning of the fuel/air intake that comes into the crank window
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Old 08-26-2010, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by houston
not disputing you know what you're talking about but how do you decrease the advanced timing on the crank ?

you can however extend the duration of the incoming fuel but this will not effect the beginning of the fuel/air intake that comes into the crank window
Not sure where you got the decreasing the timing from? If I came across wrong, I am sorry. I was simply saying that both the 09 and 10 Toro cranks like timing advancements from stock, just the the 09 needs more work as it has less timing than the 10 in stock trim.

Not totally understanding what you mean by the not being able to effect the fuel/air intake in the window. We could be thinking along the same lines, just using different terminology. If you cut the window down, you can most certainly alter when the crank opens and closes and depending where the piston is in relation to when the crank opens and closes. Think of it as a rotary valve. Depending on what the stroke, rod length, piston speed, exhaust and transfer durations etc will dictate what you can get away with as far as total duration can be. I have pushed engines to the edge just to see what would happen and I have had engines make crazy torque with lower peak rpm and poor milage but for tractor pulling, you don't need mileage. I have also had the same engine with the same exact sleeve timing and pipe setup make decent low end torque and ear piercing top end with great mileage and I have had everything in between and that gives me the ability to custom tailor on engine for specific needs.

High crank timing works great in boats as well to keep the torque up and rpm down a little to take advantage of bigger props to help with cavitation. Depending on the prop size, pitch and hull design, props have points where too much rpm creates cavitation which creates heat and loss of thrust and the air passing over the prop will actually burn the edges creating even more cavitation which will ruin the prop completely after a period of time but that is a entirely different story.
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Old 08-26-2010, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by PowerHouse
Not sure where you got the decreasing the timing from? If I came across wrong, I am sorry. I was simply saying that both the 09 and 10 Toro cranks like timing advancements from stock, just the the 09 needs more work as it has less timing than the 10 in stock trim.

Not totally understanding what you mean by the not being able to effect the fuel/air intake in the window. We could be thinking along the same lines, just using different terminology. If you cut the window down, you can most certainly alter when the crank opens and closes and depending where the piston is in relation to when the crank opens and closes. Think of it as a rotary valve. Depending on what the stroke, rod length, piston speed, exhaust and transfer durations etc will dictate what you can get away with as far as total duration can be. I have pushed engines to the edge just to see what would happen and I have had engines make crazy torque with lower peak rpm and poor milage but for tractor pulling, you don't need mileage. I have also had the same engine with the same exact sleeve timing and pipe setup make decent low end torque and ear piercing top end with great mileage and I have had everything in between and that gives me the ability to custom tailor on engine for specific needs.

High crank timing works great in boats as well to keep the torque up and rpm down a little to take advantage of bigger props to help with cavitation. Depending on the prop size, pitch and hull design, props have points where too much rpm creates cavitation which creates heat and loss of thrust and the air passing over the prop will actually burn the edges creating even more cavitation which will ruin the prop completely after a period of time but that is a entirely different story.
compared to the nonteam cranks the team cranks have less timing advancement (less material taken away from the leading edge on crank intake window)

i must say the factory timings are what they are after much research

rc cars are cool

these are all different views of a subject , thats all
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Old 08-26-2010, 09:02 PM
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ttt
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Old 08-26-2010, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by arm2storm
ttt
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Old 08-27-2010, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by houston
you said it.....lol
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Old 08-27-2010, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by PowerHouse
You sure can. The old crank had a total duration of 207 degrees and the team crank has a duration of 215. Where it opens and closes is key and the old crank has more than enough meat to advance the timing to where it likes to be. I advance the timing even further so both engines need timing advancement, the team just doesn't need as much. The exhaust port timing on the sleeve is the same as far as the boosters are concerned but what they did with the team engine is raise the main port up so the boosters are not the sole supporters of the blowdown timing as long so the exhaust port has more surface area sooner resulting in better scavaging giving the engine more breathability which gives it a stronger powerband throughout. I also raise the timing on the exhaust to compliment the crank timing advancements to give the engine a very solid overall feel.

As Monty mentioned, filling the crank is also key to giving the engine more throttle response on the low end. It also assists with the induction flow characteristics and if done right will aid in mileage gains. Now the trick is how much and at what angle the fill should be. I have experimented with several variations and have found a great filling technique that not only flows the charge better, but also compliments the tapered run out of the crank to keep charge velocities up to where the engine responds extremely well on and off power. Nothing worse than losing velocity and it taking too long to build fuel signal again so the engine can respond and come on power.

With the addition of the new piston and lowered head, it is an all around nice package from factory and a real weapon after modifications if done correctly.
So if i want to modify my engines,you guys are the right ones
to do it.As far by reading your posts here on this forum i have
no problems understanding that you guys really knows what
to do,to make a engine scream like a raped demon.
Its damn sad that it is billion of miles over the sea from
Norway to the states so i could be so lucky to experince
what a nitro engine really can power out from low to
peak.Its going to cost me......
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Old 08-27-2010, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr spoony
So if i want to modify my engines,you guys are the right ones
to do it.As far by reading your posts here on this forum i have
no problems understanding that you guys really knows what
to do,to make a engine scream like a raped demon.
Its damn sad that it is billion of miles over the sea from
Norway to the states so i could be so lucky to experince
what a nitro engine really can power out from low to
peak.Its going to cost me......
you know with the killer design the engines have now a days , the right pipe,plug,clutch,restrictor (to properly jet the engine) , carb tune ,etc. etc. will do more for you for making power

engines can become undriveable and have some unwanted characteristics when getting modified too heavily , i speak from experience
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Old 08-27-2010, 11:59 PM
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[QUOTE=houston;7864382]you know with the killer design the engines have now a days , the right pipe,plug,clutch,restrictor (to properly jet the engine) , carb tune ,etc. etc. will do more for you for making power

engines can become undriveable and have some unwanted characteristics when getting modified too heavily , i speak from experience [/QUO the

The "oustside tuning" is one thing i know a lot about, but when it comes
to inside moding...thats another chapter
I am very pleased about my set up i use on my engines
at the time,they act and responds the way i want them
to do but offcorse there is tons of pipes-manifolds/clutches/springs/flywheels
venturis etc etc..variations and combinations out there, just waiting
to be tested outbut i was talking about having a engine
modded up to peak

me jumping with my inferno mp777 sp2(RB WS7 L2G. 18/46 clutchbell-spur combination)with a inferno mp 7.5 sport
front,used to not trash the car totally.here you go folks:

youtube search title:Rc Car Jump 72 feet Kyosho Inferno MP777 SP2 RB WS7 L2G .21 engine Crash 24 Meter

Only way to show it since it seems impossible for me using
the URL address.
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