help with buggy stalling

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Old 05-30-2018, 04:51 PM
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Default help with buggy stalling

I have a AE B83.1 with a Ryan Lutz Edition Alpha and the AE the stock clutch. I have had a lot of help at the track with people getting my tune correct. I feel that the engine is running as good as it can, but I have this nagging problem of the motor flaming out. This past weekend when I would attempt to jump a double it would die in the air. I am thinking i have a problem with the clutch. When it is on the box it will idle without problem for a whole tank without any bliping or input from me. The reason I think it is the clutch is that when it is on the box the wheels will start to spin at idle.

I removed the engine today to try and diagnose. The bell housing had some play, so I shimmed it better, the clutch appear to look good, as did the bearings. I replaced the clutch springs as a precaution. Reassembled the clutch, started it up and same problem. I even stuck a screw driver against the bell in an attempt to stop it, but the car died when I did that.

I would buy a new clutch if I thought that was my problem.

Any suggestions?
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Old 05-30-2018, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ryan391 View Post
I have a AE B83.1 with a Ryan Lutz Edition Alpha and the AE the stock clutch. I have had a lot of help at the track with people getting my tune correct. I feel that the engine is running as good as it can, but I have this nagging problem of the motor flaming out. This past weekend when I would attempt to jump a double it would die in the air. I am thinking i have a problem with the clutch. When it is on the box it will idle without problem for a whole tank without any bliping or input from me. The reason I think it is the clutch is that when it is on the box the wheels will start to spin at idle.

I removed the engine today to try and diagnose. The bell housing had some play, so I shimmed it better, the clutch appear to look good, as did the bearings. I replaced the clutch springs as a precaution. Reassembled the clutch, started it up and same problem. I even stuck a screw driver against the bell in an attempt to stop it, but the car died when I did that.

I would buy a new clutch if I thought that was my problem.

Any suggestions?
are you running in high altitude?
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Old 05-30-2018, 05:33 PM
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So you touched the clutch bell and it died, so when its sitting running on the box if you hold the brake it dies?? Sounds like shoes or springs not in their proper place, so does the clutch bell spin free when the motor is off (not running) and any funny wear marks inside the bell a super it could be shimmed to close to the flywheel side
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Old 05-30-2018, 06:25 PM
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Not running in high altitude.

It does not die if I go from idle to brake, all the time, sometimes it does. If I take an idling buggy and put it on the ground does not move. If i drive around the driveway 1/2 throttle constant, it does not die. If I go out in the street and do full throttle passes It dies when I brake hard. It will sit on the box and idle for a whole tank(the wheels will spin)

The clutch edges to have some worn paint, but I checked they have good clearance. The bell spins freely. The shoes look ok, I took the clutch to the hobby shop and they said looks good, just replace springs. I lowed the idle until it is just above dying. I have leaned the top and bottom as much as I can.

I took it apart again tonight removed one ship to give a little more play and put new bearings in it. No change.

I am stumped. I bought this motor used and I think it has to be my culprit. I thought the motor was bad, but I am not sure, I did order a new one. It will be here tomorrow. I probably have more than one issue. The only other things I can think of is the motor shaft is bent and off the buggy the bell spins fine, but when engaged the shaft has some wobble. ( I am reaching here)
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Old 05-30-2018, 06:35 PM
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Trying to diagnose this over the internet is difficult as what if the idle is too low as if it was mine I would turn it up a little bit and see if that makes a difference, does it still have mechanical pinch and what motor are we talking about
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Old 05-30-2018, 06:53 PM
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sounds like throttle linkage...
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Old 05-30-2018, 07:08 PM
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It is a Ryan Lutz Alpha. Idle does not make a difference. I would not normally ask for help of this sort in a forum, I was hoping for someone to offer a suggestion I had not thought of.

What do you mean throttle linkage?

The idle seems high not low if the clutch is engaging.
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Old 05-30-2018, 07:10 PM
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Sounds like you're too lean on top to me. When I got started I tried way to much to tune on the box and I almost always wound up being too lean on top, to rich on bottom. Now that I've got a little experience I like a Dolly Parton tune, fat on top, lean on bottom. So,set the idle gap to .5-.6mm and never touch it again. Control the idle with the low speed needle, not the idle stop screw. Lean to speed up the idle richen to slow it down. Use the idle screw and you'll chase the tune constantly. The engine leans itself as it heats up and you'll never be able to get a good race tune on the box or in the driveway or street. Gotta get it on the track and get it heat saturated then start to get your race tune. Richen the top up a 3-4 hours and see if you can keep it running. If you can keep it running put 2-3 good hard laps on it. Makes some full speed passes and start to lean it until you don't notice any speed gains and still can see a faint smoke trail. At that point you can richen 1 hour I think thats a pretty safe way to set your HSN. To set the LSN, make a few full speed passes to clear it out, then apply full brake, count to 10 then full throttle. If it accelerates quickly with a nice puff of smoke the bottom is good. If it sounds blubbery and accelerates slow, lean it out an hour and repeat. If it flames out right away, richen 1 hour and repeat. Make sure you're always blowing a little smoke and you'll usually be ok. Also remember leaning or richening the high speed needle with also richen or lean the low speed needle. The HSN regulates all fuel going into carb. If you have to richen the HSN considerably you will need to LEAN the low speed needle to account for the extra fuel going into the carb.
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Old 05-30-2018, 07:46 PM
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I understand what you are saying about idle gap, but what is the best way to set this? Take off the air filter and venturi?
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Old 05-30-2018, 07:51 PM
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I asked that question before I read the whole post. I have spend 3 hours at the track tuning exactly how you recommend. I have even enlisted the help of others. At this point my tune is really not the concern. I have been able to get a fantastic tune and have the engine warm up and stay at the same temp for several laps. My main problem is it dies at random unexplained time. I am having to constantly make sure I am not full on full off throttle or it will die. I am only working the idle to see if I can get the clutch to disengage.
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Old 05-30-2018, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ryan391 View Post
I understand what you are saying about idle gap, but what is the best way to set this? Take off the air filter and venturi?
Yes, but preferably in a clean environment. And if you have to do it at the track, make sure the air filter boot is clean and the carb base as well :-P
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Old 05-30-2018, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Apco1 View Post
Sounds like you're too lean on top to me. When I got started I tried way to much to tune on the box and I almost always wound up being too lean on top, to rich on bottom. Now that I've got a little experience I like a Dolly Parton tune, fat on top, lean on bottom. So,set the idle gap to .5-.6mm and never touch it again. Control the idle with the low speed needle, not the idle stop screw. Lean to speed up the idle richen to slow it down. Use the idle screw and you'll chase the tune constantly. The engine leans itself as it heats up and you'll never be able to get a good race tune on the box or in the driveway or street. Gotta get it on the track and get it heat saturated then start to get your race tune. Richen the top up a 3-4 hours and see if you can keep it running. If you can keep it running put 2-3 good hard laps on it. Makes some full speed passes and start to lean it until you don't notice any speed gains and still can see a faint smoke trail. At that point you can richen 1 hour I think thats a pretty safe way to set your HSN. To set the LSN, make a few full speed passes to clear it out, then apply full brake, count to 10 then full throttle. If it accelerates quickly with a nice puff of smoke the bottom is good. If it sounds blubbery and accelerates slow, lean it out an hour and repeat. If it flames out right away, richen 1 hour and repeat. Make sure you're always blowing a little smoke and you'll usually be ok. Also remember leaning or richening the high speed needle with also richen or lean the low speed needle. The HSN regulates all fuel going into carb. If you have to richen the HSN considerably you will need to LEAN the low speed needle to account for the extra fuel going into the carb.
going by that thoery, the LSN would have to move at the same time.

HSN indeed does regulate, but not as your describing - if you lean hard on the HSN it makes the LSN a little harder to get right if your going for a all our performance and runtime tune.
This is why the hsn is taperd the way they are.. that means that at idle and low speed the hsn allows more then enough fuel to pass it so the LSN can be ran rich, and at this point if you lean the HSN you limit the LSN fuel availability THIS IS WHY PEOPLE END UP WITH A WAY LEAN HSN AND RICH LSN and it makes the engine seem likes its running OK but acts up and doesnt last. this is basically called blanket tuning.
-you way of tuning is fine but its why we tune the HSN first and understand how 2 step idle works with the LSN and the idle screw. .5-.6 doesnt work everywhere and can cause headaches.

cradock for elliot actually runs the idle slightly higher and lets it 2 step with a very slightly rich lsn lol

anyway, im led to believe OP hasnt setup the throttle linkage properly and its closing slightly more when brakes applied, just a guess but is very common
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Old 05-30-2018, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by iplaygames View Post
going by that thoery, the LSN would have to move at the same time.

HSN indeed does regulate, but not as your describing - if you lean hard on the HSN it makes the LSN a little harder to get right if your going for a all our performance and runtime tune.
This is why the hsn is taperd the way they are.. that means that at idle and low speed the hsn allows more then enough fuel to pass it so the LSN can be ran rich, and at this point if you lean the HSN you limit the LSN fuel availability THIS IS WHY PEOPLE END UP WITH A WAY LEAN HSN AND RICH LSN and it makes the engine seem likes its running OK but acts up and doesnt last. this is basically called blanket tuning.
-you way of tuning is fine but its why we tune the HSN first and understand how 2 step idle works with the LSN and the idle screw. .5-.6 doesnt work everywhere and can cause headaches.

cradock for elliot actually runs the idle slightly higher and lets it 2 step with a very slightly rich lsn lol

anyway, im led to believe OP hasnt setup the throttle linkage properly and its closing slightly more when brakes applied, just a guess but is very common
My point with that comment was to inform him that changing the HSN will affect the LSN. Never told him to tune the bottom first. I agree if you're too lean on top the LSN window is even smaller, cause you have less fuel. I feel thats why its important to not mess with the idle gap. thats your constant to base everything on. Trying to mess with the HSN, LSN and idle gap all at the same time is a recipe for frustration. Sure the gap may have to change, but thats step 1. Set the gap and don't mess with it unless you're starting over. Just sharing what has helped me, might not work for everyone.
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Old 05-31-2018, 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Apco1 View Post
Sounds like you're too lean on top to me. When I got started I tried way to much to tune on the box and I almost always wound up being too lean on top, to rich on bottom. Now that I've got a little experience I like a Dolly Parton tune, fat on top, lean on bottom. So,set the idle gap to .5-.6mm and never touch it again. Control the idle with the low speed needle, not the idle stop screw. Lean to speed up the idle richen to slow it down. Use the idle screw and you'll chase the tune constantly. The engine leans itself as it heats up and you'll never be able to get a good race tune on the box or in the driveway or street. Gotta get it on the track and get it heat saturated then start to get your race tune. Richen the top up a 3-4 hours and see if you can keep it running. If you can keep it running put 2-3 good hard laps on it. Makes some full speed passes and start to lean it until you don't notice any speed gains and still can see a faint smoke trail. At that point you can richen 1 hour I think thats a pretty safe way to set your HSN. To set the LSN, make a few full speed passes to clear it out, then apply full brake, count to 10 then full throttle. If it accelerates quickly with a nice puff of smoke the bottom is good. If it sounds blubbery and accelerates slow, lean it out an hour and repeat. If it flames out right away, richen 1 hour and repeat. Make sure you're always blowing a little smoke and you'll usually be ok. Also remember leaning or richening the high speed needle with also richen or lean the low speed needle. The HSN regulates all fuel going into carb. If you have to richen the HSN considerably you will need to LEAN the low speed needle to account for the extra fuel going into the carb.
Was thinking the same... lean on top.... have the same engine with lots of gals. on it and no issues, it just kicks butt. Can you take the glow plug out and take a picture of it? ...Might be too lean on top and a small air leak...maybe the tank, o-rings on the carb. Set it like Apco1 told you and then see how it acts.
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Old 05-31-2018, 04:16 AM
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A rich engine usually doesn’t quit. A lean engine will. I agree with KC... Get a pic of the glow plug showing the base of the body and wire.

And FWIW - you usually have to have the main needle set pretty damn lean to have it affect the idle mixture circuit. You set your idle gap to a good base setting and then tune your high speed because it’s in a fixed seat. The idle isn’t in a fixed seat due to being in the moving throttle slide. The idle gap will change the idle mixture when its adjusted. Changing the main needle setting won’t affect the idle mixture unless you go way lean; you WILL notice where the main needle’s influence “takes over” from the idle circuit if your idle is way rich.

My thoughts on this thread - either the idle speed is too fast or there is a broken/mis-seated clutch spring. Or just something with the clutch in general. The wheels should not move at idle; period. If you stop wheels when it’s running and wheels are tuning and the engine quits, that’s clutch related.

Edit: the more important question; if this buggy didn’t have this problem before and it does now, what changed?

Last edited by RCTecher12; 05-31-2018 at 04:26 AM.
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