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Seattle RC Racers/Hangar 30

Old 12-22-2010, 05:24 PM
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I have a "tech" question for anyone who might know.

I'm running the following:
--- A Novak Ballistic 17.5 brushless motor and Castle Mamba Max Pro ESC set on fixed timing (no advance) in Stock Touring
--- A Tamiya 540 Silver Can and a Novak GT7 ESC in Scale Spec.

Neither motor is equipped with a finned heat sink. My motor temps seem to be OK but my thermometer doesn't want to measure temperate at a particular point very well, so I'm not entirely sure. Others have a little more speed on the straight than me, so I've considered a gearing down a tad but it could just be my driving and, since I'm not totally sure about the temps, I haven't changed the ratios to avoid the over temp risk.

I got to thinking that if I installed a heat sink on both motors, I would have a little more assurance that my motor temps would stay in the "safe" zone through a whole race and maybe let me gear down a bit more.

My question is: Do the rules allow or forbid heat sinks on Stock Touring and Scale Spec motors?

If anybody who knows could inform, I would really appreciate it.

If motor heat sinks are OK in Stock Touring and Scale Spec, then I'll get heat sinks. If motor heat sinks aren't OK, then I'll get some sort of more precise thermometer so I can be sure my temps are good.

Thoughts and advice are welcome.

Bill S.
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Old 12-22-2010, 08:24 PM
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Not sure about scale spec but in no timing 17.5 we're in the 3.9 - 3.7 range.

I'm running a D3, max timing on the motor and 3.7.
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Old 12-22-2010, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by waswadener
My question is: Do the rules allow or forbid heat sinks on Stock Touring and Scale Spec motors?
I'm certainly no expert, but here is the spec rules language posted on - http://seattlercracers.com/specsrules/

"Scale Spec: 1/10th scale electric chassis. 5mm minimim ride height. Tamiya 540 silver can motor or USVTA-approved 25.5t brushless motor. ROAR-approved Sportsman ESC (Legacy ESCís not on the ROAR-approved list will be admitted by the Comp Committee on an individual basis.) HPI D Compound tires. M-chassis cars are exempted from tire requirement. Realistic, scale bodies must be run on all chassis. Maximum 6-cell NiMH or NiCd batteries or maximum 7.4v 2S lithium technology batteries. Batteries must be on ROAR-approved list."

Net - no mention either way. Better to run it if you have it, than it is to burn up your motor.

Hope it helps
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Old 12-22-2010, 09:41 PM
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Anyone need anything from Hong Kong?

-Mike
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Old 12-22-2010, 10:22 PM
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Hi Bill, As far as I know the only thing that really isn't allowed at the big races in terms of helping with motor temps is an actual motor cooler, I still see some available for sale on some websites. I believe your fine running the heatsinks on your motors to help keep the temps down, I've personally run a motor heatsink with a fan attached to it Currently I have a fan behind the motor and it seems to be helping with keeping the temps down (the temp inside the hangar is helping too). I've personally seen as much as 40deg temp difference with the fan running vs off. Hope this helps, if not Kody, Todd or Korey can chime in
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Old 12-22-2010, 10:41 PM
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Hi,
ROAR rules are what the committee used for this, (I'm on the committee), so, heat sinks, and/or one fan, no bigger than 30mm is allowed.

Rule #8.8.4.5.1.1, if you want to look it up. http://www.roarracing.com/downloads/..._Rule_Book.pdf

The heat sink must be cast aluminum. The motor must be ambient temperature at the start of the race. No other active cooling is allowed. Air scoops and ventilation slits to provide passive cooling are allowed.

A fan and heat sink do help. I may still have a new much more fan heat sink combo that could work for a silvercan. I'll look in my box of extra stuff. I use a fan blowing over my 17.5 motor, and that works really well.

-Alex


Originally Posted by marksp
I'm certainly no expert, but here is the spec rules language posted on - http://seattlercracers.com/specsrules/

"Scale Spec: 1/10th scale electric chassis. 5mm minimim ride height. Tamiya 540 silver can motor or USVTA-approved 25.5t brushless motor. ROAR-approved Sportsman ESC (Legacy ESC’s not on the ROAR-approved list will be admitted by the Comp Committee on an individual basis.) HPI D Compound tires. M-chassis cars are exempted from tire requirement. Realistic, scale bodies must be run on all chassis. Maximum 6-cell NiMH or NiCd batteries or maximum 7.4v 2S lithium technology batteries. Batteries must be on ROAR-approved list."

Net - no mention either way. Better to run it if you have it, than it is to burn up your motor.

Hope it helps
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Old 12-22-2010, 11:11 PM
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Default Hanger 30 rules

In case anyone was wondering, for the most part, we abide by the ROAR rules. We are covered by ROAR insurance, so it is important for most of the rules. It also makes it easier if you you go to a ROAR sanctioned event to be legal. I put the link here for the 2010 rule book. We did decide on a couple of changes in what motor wind would run with no timing in several classes, and that is different from similar ROAR classes this year with dynamic timing that is allowed. As it has turned out, the speeds are not to far off from the timing allowed versions, so really not a handicap for those that will race at one of those events away from the Hanger. Also, we chose a spec rubber TC tire to use for the season. What we came up with, for the Hanger 30 rules, was not done without a lot of discussion, and for the most part has worked out well. As the season has progressed, there have been a few rules in the ROAR rulebook that ended up causing some question as to what rule actually applied, the 1s rotor size vs approved tuning rotor list, in particular. ROAR is working to fix that for the future. Nothing is perfect. If there is any questions about what is legal or not, please feel free to ask. I will always be happy to work with the other members of the committee to find the answer.

http://www.roarracing.com/downloads/..._Rule_Book.pdf

In general, the intent of the Hanger 30 set of rules is to allow us all to race together, without a need to police everybody, and that hopefully no one will have to worry that their fellow racer has not followed these rules as well. We tried to keep them simple.

The most enjoyment for all, is when you know that what you have put on the track allows you to show driving and set-up skills to the fullest. Not the loophole that went undiscovered.

lets all continue to improve our skills and have fun racing.

-Alex

Last edited by oldrcr; 12-22-2010 at 11:52 PM.
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Old 12-22-2010, 11:35 PM
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Thank you and OK. I'll implement heat sinks on both motors.

I've got an Integy heat sink (was in a bag of stuff I got with one of the kids' Slash's) that will fit the silver can and I'll pick up Novak heat sink for the Stock Touring motor. While I'm at it, maybe I'll make the "plunge" for a better thermometer.

I've been running 3.94:1 (69 tooth spur, 35 tooth pinion, 48 pitch) in the Stock Touring car and the motor seems to hover a little higher than 140 degrees. Sounds like a heat sink will drop that a lot and let me run a 36 tooth pinion.

... and, of course, mostly keep working on my driving.

Again, thank you everybody for your help. I really appreciate it.

Happy Holidays!!!

Bill S.
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Old 12-23-2010, 12:04 AM
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Hi Bill, I've been playing with the ballistic since they became available and have found that they seem to come alive at around 3.80, with a fair amount of timing in the motor. With mine in particular, anytime I deviated from 3.80 I notice a difference in lap times. So, gear up close to 3.80 and see what happens, recommended R-dog do the same thing, his car looked alot better in the speed department last Saturday
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Old 12-23-2010, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by waswadener
While I'm at it, maybe I'll make the "plunge" for a better thermometer.

Bill S.
Hey Bill.

Not sure if you've done this, or heard of this, but the temp guns have a hard time with shiny reflective surfaces, like silver cans, and the bright aluminum cans on some motors. Either put a piece of black electrical tape or paint a black (flat black) spot on the motor.

If that doesn't help, then yes, your temp gun is a pile and you should replace it!

Happy Holidays
Jason
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Old 12-23-2010, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by waswadener
Thank you and OK. I'll implement heat sinks on both motors.

I've got an Integy heat sink (was in a bag of stuff I got with one of the kids' Slash's) that will fit the silver can and I'll pick up Novak heat sink for the Stock Touring motor. While I'm at it, maybe I'll make the "plunge" for a better thermometer.

I've been running 3.94:1 (69 tooth spur, 35 tooth pinion, 48 pitch) in the Stock Touring car and the motor seems to hover a little higher than 140 degrees. Sounds like a heat sink will drop that a lot and let me run a 36 tooth pinion.

... and, of course, mostly keep working on my driving.

Again, thank you everybody for your help. I really appreciate it.

Happy Holidays!!!

Bill S.
something that a lot of people don't know or understand is gearing,temps and lap times,

lets say you have a 35t pinion, and your temps are 130, you say sweet, and add a tooth, your temps are now 140, again you add a tooth your temps are 150, being a daredevil you add another tooth, your temps are 160, perfect you say, well, lets take a look at your lap times over those changes, most often they won't change. so you have to ask, why am i running my motor at 160 when i can turn the same times at 130. each and every motor (along with chassis) has a gear ratio that it likes and performs best at, Many will disagree with this but here is an example, NORA small track, Hanger 30 medium track, Timezone big track, for stock, no timing, I run the same gear ratio at all three tracks. why, because MY SP motor loves a 4.2 gear ratio, it has great rip off the bottom and good top end. when i go to a smaller track, I maintain the bottom end rip, I just don't hit top end. so what. some say gear down to get more torque, it is my opinion you can lose torque by droping a gear. I.E. does your real car "pull" harder in 1st or 2nd gear off the line, oh sure theres a little lag in 2nd gear off the start, but your only starting from a dead stop once with your rc car.

heres a quick boring story from Paved nats a couple of years ago, some have heard it some have not,

Speedpassion motor, geared 5.2 (version 2 the first roar approved version) I had always ran this gear ration and the car was fast and won its share of races here in the NW. I go to nats and I'm running 16.8 laps, I think I'm in the mix, until someone shows up and lays down a 16.2, WTH. I have a Hacker motor, I'm told it loves more gear, so I gear it to a 4.7. its fast but I don't really like the way it feels, so I say, what the heck, lets try the 4.7 on the SP motor, if it burns up, oh well, it went faster and ran 'COOLER' then the 5.2 ratio, so once again I say WTH, geared it to a 4.2 and it was on the money, awesome rip, awesome top end, and good temps.

the reason I stopped at a 5.2 with the SP motor is that is where it got close to max temp range, adding teeth actually made it run cooler. (go figure) BTW this was in 95 - 100 degree summer weather

long story short, don't be afraid to try stupid stuff, sometimes it works out.

as far as the heat sink on the NOVAK, if its a ballistic, just take the center ring off. the novak heat sink is to big and heavy don't buy it.

cheers

P.S. I should probably add this is for NO timing
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Old 12-23-2010, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by skypilot
something that a lot of people don't know or understand is gearing,temps and lap times,

lets say you have a 35t pinion, and your temps are 130, you say sweet, and add a tooth, your temps are now 140, again you add a tooth your temps are 150, being a daredevil you add another tooth, your temps are 160, perfect you say, well, lets take a look at your lap times over those changes, most often they won't change. so you have to ask, why am i running my motor at 160 when i can turn the same times at 130. each and every motor (along with chassis) has a gear ratio that it likes and performs best at, Many will disagree with this but here is an example, NORA small track, Hanger 30 medium track, Timezone big track, for stock, no timing, I run the same gear ratio at all three tracks. why, because MY SP motor loves a 4.2 gear ratio, it has great rip off the bottom and good top end. when i go to a smaller track, I maintain the bottom end rip, I just don't hit top end. so what. some say gear down to get more torque, it is my opinion you can lose torque by droping a gear. I.E. does your real car "pull" harder in 1st or 2nd gear off the line, oh sure theres a little lag in 2nd gear off the start, but your only starting from a dead stop once with your rc car.

heres a quick boring story from Paved nats a couple of years ago, some have heard it some have not,

Speedpassion motor, geared 5.2 (version 2 the first roar approved version) I had always ran this gear ration and the car was fast and won its share of races here in the NW. I go to nats and I'm running 16.8 laps, I think I'm in the mix, until someone shows up and lays down a 16.2, WTH. I have a Hacker motor, I'm told it loves more gear, so I gear it to a 4.7. its fast but I don't really like the way it feels, so I say, what the heck, lets try the 4.7 on the SP motor, if it burns up, oh well, it went faster and ran 'COOLER' then the 5.2 ratio, so once again I say WTH, geared it to a 4.2 and it was on the money, awesome rip, awesome top end, and good temps.

the reason I stopped at a 5.2 with the SP motor is that is where it got close to max temp range, adding teeth actually made it run cooler. (go figure) BTW this was in 95 - 100 degree summer weather

long story short, don't be afraid to try stupid stuff, sometimes it works out.

as far as the heat sink on the NOVAK, if its a ballistic, just take the center ring off. the novak heat sink is to big and heavy don't buy it.

cheers

P.S. I should probably add this is for NO timing
Nicely put Ritchie. I too was in the mind set of keeping the motor around 160 no matter what. Also running a stock ratio of 3.6 to 3.9. Last time at Nora I was whining about running hot and Korey suggested going to a little over 4. I think i went too 4.05, anyway the motor ran cooler of course and my laptimes increased. Same thing happened at the hanger. Now if I could just pull my head out and run a better line and pull the corners in abit.
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Old 12-23-2010, 10:39 AM
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the motors we have now are a bit different then back then. and we are all learning all the time, remember reading the tekin thread when "turbo first came out and all the talk was about feel of second gear kicking in, and gear the motor this way, later it was gear for the infield and now its changed again.
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Old 12-23-2010, 12:06 PM
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Default January Schedule Update

As of yesterday, I was able to bump our next Saturday race back to its original date. The Icebox Indoor is now on Saturday, January 15.

This relieves the conflict with the NWIC round in Tri-Cities.

Definitely signing off, now.

Merry Christmas to all.
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Old 12-23-2010, 12:42 PM
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Very cooooool Todd... Now GET THE HELL OFF RC TECH!!!!!!!
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