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Seattle RC Racers/Hangar 30

Old 12-15-2015, 08:21 AM
  #17866  
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Originally Posted by jwg191
I would like to see a open 25.5 motor rules in scale spec. Novak motors suck. For the price of a Novak 25.5 you can get a different and better motor.
They may suck but everyone has to use them so no advantage.

That different and better motor will force people to start buying the motor of the month.
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Old 12-15-2015, 08:30 AM
  #17867  
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Originally Posted by malkiy
I know a lot of people who stopped racing because of foam. They didn't complain they just stopped racing. Maybe that's why you never heard negatives?

Foam just adds a lot of added work in my opinion. Changing ride height, variable gearing, can't run the tires right out of the package and you have to worry about chunking (body tuck? Chunk. Rear ended? Chunk. Hit a pipe? Chunk).

I guess foam was ok back in the days of double purple / purple but there was a mass exodus when the pink compounds were introduced. Those were the days when people cut their tires down to 55mm run them 1-2 times then toss them. In my opinion that killed it for a lot of people.

Our program is running just fine with the classes we have. Most of the world runs TC on rubber tire.
I guess you have a point there. I just like the way the cars drive on foam is all.
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Old 12-15-2015, 08:46 AM
  #17868  
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Originally Posted by jeff jenkins
I guess you have a point there. I just like the way the cars drive on foam is all.
Think everyone loves the way foam cars drive
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Old 12-15-2015, 09:56 AM
  #17869  
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Originally Posted by malkiy
They may suck but everyone has to use them so no advantage.

That different and better motor will force people to start buying the motor of the month.
A motor is cheaper then buying the car of the month
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Old 12-15-2015, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by jwg191
A motor is cheaper then buying the car of the month
And buying neither a new motor nor the car of the month is even cheaper! I run competitively in SS with a 6 year old car.

As for the ROAR 25.5 motors, they are running them in F1 class down in LA. I'm seeing Trinity, R1 Wurks, SchuurSpeed, ... not Novak. Cleveland Halloween Classic F1 ... Trinity (special "F1 edition") not Novak. The arms race is on.

Novak has done a wonderful thing for us by producing the USVTA 25.5 motor with essentially constant performance for many years. It will not improve racing or save SS racers money to open this up. Let's stick with Novak.

Last edited by MarkBrown; 12-15-2015 at 11:21 AM.
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Old 12-15-2015, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by malkiy
I know a lot of people who stopped racing because of foam. They didn't complain they just stopped racing. Maybe that's why you never heard negatives?

...
In another piece of evidence regarding foams, people are now injecting new life into their WGTs by putting them on rubber tires with SS bodies:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXtBxftwilA

The class is often called "GTR". CRC produces wheels (CRC 2310) with the standard 4-bolt pattern for mounting rubber F1 tires to WGT cars. Snowbirds is running a GTR class this year. The Canadian Onroad Nats just dropped WGT in favor of GTR. Modern F1 rubber makes this class far more compelling than F103GT ever was.

I'm not saying we should run this class at H30, just adding evidence that a new foam class would be swimming against the tide.

Last edited by MarkBrown; 12-15-2015 at 09:01 PM.
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Old 12-15-2015, 11:44 AM
  #17872  
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That track in the video looked so much like the lynnwood raincity track.
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Old 12-15-2015, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by jeff jenkins
That track in the video looked so much like the lynnwood raincity track.
I visited that track during the summer, TQ raceway. It reminded me of raincity too. The building is roughly the same size. The layout of the track and the announcer table next to the track are like raincity too.

The parts store is surprisingly small considering the amount of inventory they have in stock. All the parts are neatly packed into cardboard boxes and arranged so part can be found quickly.
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Old 12-15-2015, 12:06 PM
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You never realize how much you miss something till its gone.
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Old 12-15-2015, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by malkiy
...

The parts store is surprisingly small considering the amount of inventory they have in stock. All the parts are neatly packed into cardboard boxes and arranged so part can be found quickly.
I believe that Sean Park, the proprietor at TQ, does his own web site. It is cool to peek over his shoulder as he looks up a part for you. He is using the same web site that you see, but logged into "store mode" so the part location code (identifying a box) shows up for him. He pulls out that box, and voila!
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Old 12-15-2015, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by MarkBrown
And buying neither a new motor nor the car of the month is even cheaper! I run competitively in SS with a 6 year old car.

As for the ROAR 25.5 motors, they are running them in F1 class down in LA. I'm seeing Trinity, R1 Wurks, SchuurSpeed, ... not Novak. Cleveland Halloween Classic F1 ... Trinity (special "F1 edition") not Novak. The arms race is on.

Novak has done a wonderful thing for us by producing the USVTA 25.5 motor with essentially constant performance for many years. It will not improve racing or save SS racers money to open this up. Let's stick with Novak.
These races you speak of are super loose on there rules. None of the motors are currently ROAR legal 25.5 and possibly not even close to the new specs. I could be wrong but nothing is listed and I've heard most are having to change there 25.5 to comply with the new specs. So could those motor that won have 12.5 rotors and inductance numbers well below ROAR's new specs, yes they possibly could have been. We will have to test and see how a ROAR spec'ed competitor motor stacks up. Its what we've heard from many racers so I'll say its our responsibility to look at the option now.

Some are buying multiple motor to build a decent one. The consistency just isn't there anymore it seems. So its an all out build war at the moment.

If you haven't seen the spec's here they are,

ROAR Spec 25.5 motor: Only three slot "Y" wound stators are permitted. No delta wound or slot less stators are allowed. Only circular (round) pure copper magnet wire permitted. The three slotted stator must be wound with 25.5 turns of two strands of wire with a maximum diameter of .643mm per slot. The minimum resistance between any 2 phases of the motor (AB, AC, BC), when measured at 25C with an Instek GOM 802 milliohm meter, will be no less than 101 milliohms. The stator stack length must be a minimum of 19.7mm and a maximum of 21.0mm. Only 12.3 mm diameter rotors will be permitted in 25.5 Spec motors and the diameter must measure 12.30 +/-.05 mm. The rotor magnet length must be between a minimum of 25.0mm and a maximum of 26.0mm, not including any balancing material."
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Old 12-15-2015, 03:40 PM
  #17877  
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None of the currently available 25.5 motors meet new ROAR spec rules. As for equality I am seeing 25.5 motors range from 78-119 watts on the dyno. The inequality of the current 25.5 coupled with their extremely under powered behavior make them them the worst possible spec option in years. When the approved motors become available the spread will likely narrow but it will never be as even as requiring everyone to run the same motor as they do now in SS. F1 is good with its current rule set too. I would suggest keeping the rules consistent for the stable classes unaltered and focus on how to get people out for those that struggle.
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Old 12-15-2015, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Kody
These races you speak of are super loose on there rules. None of the motors are currently ROAR legal 25.5 and possibly not even close to the new specs. I could be wrong but nothing is listed and I've heard most are having to change there 25.5 to comply with the new specs. So could those motor that won have 12.5 rotors and inductance numbers well below ROAR's new specs, yes they possibly could have been. We will have to test and see how a ROAR spec'ed competitor motor stacks up. Its what we've heard from many racers so I'll say its our responsibility to look at the option now.

Some are buying multiple motor to build a decent one. The consistency just isn't there anymore it seems. So its an all out build war at the moment.

...
Schuur and Trinity both claim that the motors they are selling today (the ones I've been racing against in LA) meet the ROAR specs. They don't claim to have *approvals* since there haven't been any approvals. But surely Schuur and Trinity will have big problems with their customers if the motors they've sold as meeting ROAR specs don't get approved. Schuur and Trinity would have to replace the motors, very expensive for them. (R1 Wurks is in a different situation as they are not selling a product yet, just loaning it out to their special friends.)

The ROAR 25.5 specs do not directly control inductance, only resistance. The specs do not control the rotor strength, only rotor dimensions. These are just examples of things that give the motor makers room for development to make the motors better over time. They always have done this in the past; there is no reason to believe that this time it will be different.

Novak is a pillar of the RC industry and I would expect them to be responsive to customers who get dud motors. I've gotten good service from Novak in the past. Have the folks who have bought sub-standard Novak motors shared their complaints with Novak, or just with you?

ROAR is in the business of promoting obsolescence. Our club is not in that business. Let ROAR do its 25.5 thing. Meanwhile, let's stick with what's worked for our club.
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Old 12-15-2015, 09:12 PM
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remember when some dumbass said, brushless, oh hell yea, its gonna all be even and take all the BS out of it... what a idiot
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Old 12-15-2015, 10:08 PM
  #17880  
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So long as 25.5s are basically outlaw, then there's no discussion of changing our current Scale Spec motor rule. If and when ROAR puts together a 25.5 list, it will be given an honest and thoughtful look. But changing something as fundamental as the power package for our most important class is going to be a heavy conversation. I'm not keen on it.

When the spec was first set in 2009, we considered the economy of the brushless package against the reigning silver can combos of the day. We thought $150 for an ESC/motor combo was pretty budget. Well, it's 6 years later, and that price point hasn't budged. You can get a quality spec ESC and a Boss brand new for $150. Less, with a minimum of effort.

That people are cherry picking stators and rotors, or that someone knows someone else who is, will always be part of the game. Half the time, I think people are simply talking smack. But be assured, opening up motors isn't going to make anything cheaper about Scale Spec. Whatever economy we just bought ourselves with a smart tire decision we're going to hand right back in motor wars.

(As an aside, for every story I hear of motors burning up, I hear another of someone having good results with a 4 year old can. Maybe both can be true at the same time. Maybe some guys push the heck out of their motors and they don't last. That couldn't possibly be the case.)

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