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Old 01-19-2010, 01:31 AM   #11266
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Harry, The G4 shocks have 0.8mm holes , as I told you not last nats, the nats before !!!! , drill them to 1.2 ( same size as almost every other tourer on the market, and also the same size as the K factory shocks) ! Problem solved !

Some food for thought -

A smaller shock piston hole with a lighter oil will feel similar to a bigger hole with thicker oil, however, the piston with the smaller hole will try to "hydraulic lock " sooner than the bigger one - harder for the oil to flow through....

A shock setup this way will not allow the suspension to keep the tyres in contact with a bumpier track quite as well....e.g. may be ok for moorebank, crap for lilydale

A smaller piston will also transfer weight to the wheel in direction changes quicker due to this hydraulic action..

The shock absorber's shock oil is designed to do exactly that, absorb the shock. Once you start messing with rebound, you are in essence creating second spring - The TM shock bladders are crap , end of story - and it's the main reason you are struggling to set your shocks right. Swap the bladders for Mugen or Kyosho ones and see the difference.

p.s. your shocks should never hydraulic lock - if they do, you have way too much oil in them. I at the most set my shock rebound to approx 2mm

The idea of keeping the shocks on the tower and not on the arms is to reduce "unsprung weight" and as such , the suspension arm can move faster and comply with an uneven surface.

This faster movement and greater tyre-track contact must surely outweigh andy benefits that a "lower cg" may give


Generally, stiffer springs and lower ride height req. harder oil - but this is not always the case.
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Old 01-19-2010, 01:57 AM   #11267
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Default Luis..

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Originally Posted by Sp Racer View Post
Harry, The G4 shocks have 0.8mm holes , as I told you not last nats, the nats before !!!! , drill them to 1.2 ( same size as almost every other tourer on the market, and also the same size as the K factory shocks) ! Problem solved !

Some food for thought -

A smaller shock piston hole with a lighter oil will feel similar to a bigger hole with thicker oil, however, the piston with the smaller hole will try to "hydraulic lock " sooner than the bigger one - harder for the oil to flow through....

A shock setup this way will not allow the suspension to keep the tyres in contact with a bumpier track quite as well....e.g. may be ok for moorebank, crap for lilydale

A smaller piston will also transfer weight to the wheel in direction changes quicker due to this hydraulic action..

The shock absorber's shock oil is designed to do exactly that, absorb the shock. Once you start messing with rebound, you are in essence creating second spring - The TM shock bladders are crap , end of story - and it's the main reason you are struggling to set your shocks right. Swap the bladders for Mugen or Kyosho ones and see the difference.

p.s. your shocks should never hydraulic lock - if they do, you have way too much oil in them. I at the most set my shock rebound to approx 2mm

The idea of keeping the shocks on the tower and not on the arms is to reduce "unsprung weight" and as such , the suspension arm can move faster and comply with an uneven surface.

This faster movement and greater tyre-track contact must surely outweigh andy benefits that a "lower cg" may give


Generally, stiffer springs and lower ride height req. harder oil - but this is not always the case.
Ill head off to bunnings to find me a 1.2mm drill bit and use it. Good luck at the Vic's, it's most definitely overdue for Brendan and after seeing you do your thing in the rain in 1/8th, a spit of rain cant possibly do you harm but best get a good dry run for all.

Father inlaw is here atm from UK, this was our year to head down due to school hols, timing and such.. never know I might get into the Diesel Polo and do the two tanks to get there to watch. Bloody long drive though so cant be definite, but it's now well overdue for a Victorian visit and really want to visit Lilydale.

Was given a Sirio .12, and feel like I'm finally getting a handle on the tuning, tested out some of the Hot Stuff Race blend and it was an incredible clean burn. Also worked on the middle tuning on the .12, must say I do like the third needle, as a mate said "it's like pushing the jet into the eye of a storm"... Faux idle (rich bottom/idle high) is something I'm focussing on atm.

Next Ill be working on diffs, then revisit roll centers, castor and systematically get through the huge amount of things to learn. Hopefully when we next meet we'll another be .5 better, still a long way off the pace but still enjoying it.

tks

h
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Old 01-20-2010, 04:17 PM   #11268
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Ill head off to bunnings to find me a 1.2mm drill bit and use it. Good luck at the Vic's, it's most definitely overdue for Brendan and after seeing you do your thing in the rain in 1/8th, a spit of rain cant possibly do you harm but best get a good dry run for all.

Father inlaw is here atm from UK, this was our year to head down due to school hols, timing and such.. never know I might get into the Diesel Polo and do the two tanks to get there to watch. Bloody long drive though so cant be definite, but it's now well overdue for a Victorian visit and really want to visit Lilydale.

Was given a Sirio .12, and feel like I'm finally getting a handle on the tuning, tested out some of the Hot Stuff Race blend and it was an incredible clean burn. Also worked on the middle tuning on the .12, must say I do like the third needle, as a mate said "it's like pushing the jet into the eye of a storm"... Faux idle (rich bottom/idle high) is something I'm focussing on atm.

Next Ill be working on diffs, then revisit roll centers, castor and systematically get through the huge amount of things to learn. Hopefully when we next meet we'll another be .5 better, still a long way off the pace but still enjoying it.

tks

h
Blis, I've also recently been experimenting with the shocks on the G4S, i've found that orange fronts and blue rear seem to cause increased chatter and reduce grip on accel

I've gone back to the stock springs with improved times at brendale.

I have also been to bunnings and found a 1.5mm (imperial) drill bit for < $4
I drilled one of the two piston holes on all of the shocks and have kept the same 45wt Losi shock oil in.... i'm yet to test the results... but on the bench you can actually see the difference when compressing the shocks and letting it go...

Ant.
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Old 01-20-2010, 04:22 PM   #11269
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Blis,
I've always setup the shocks to prevent them from unloading... has anyone done otherwise? Can anyone explain why its a good or bad idea?

<snip>
Spring unload - past droop
How many drivers setup their cars to allow the springs on their cars to unload with droop. Ive had this conversation with an experienced 1:5 rear wheel driver and he pointed out on two wheel drives they allow the front shocks to unload the spring where as on 4wd they maintain a loaded spring configuration due to drive and keeping the boots on the blackstuff without chattering.
</snip>
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Old 01-20-2010, 05:15 PM   #11270
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Default Yo ALING!!

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Originally Posted by anthony_ling View Post
Blis,
I've always setup the shocks to prevent them from unloading... has anyone done otherwise? Can anyone explain why its a good or bad idea?

<snip>
Spring unload - past droop
How many drivers setup their cars to allow the springs on their cars to unload with droop. Ive had this conversation with an experienced 1:5 rear wheel driver and he pointed out on two wheel drives they allow the front shocks to unload the spring where as on 4wd they maintain a loaded spring configuration due to drive and keeping the boots on the blackstuff without chattering.
</snip>
You know the father of the shop adjacent..

We were discussing this, where the wheels have drive, the spring shouldnt unload. It will chatter. For 1:5 rear wheel drive only, they allow for rebound to unload the spring as there's no drive. Hope the 1:5's dont read this thread !! Ive got the losi shock tester in my kit, grab it anytime to check lengths and dampen/rebound..ok

Also, with harder springs, I reduce the droop and ride height proportionally as well, I'd say it may have unloaded but also acknowledge that Im getting a lot of chatter on the ripples with the hard setup but we're trying different things. The irony is that the sweeping layout of england park lends itself well to a stiff low setup as we dont have many fast directional changes. The track surface however is aging and Im trying to find a happy median for shock and spring combination for it.

This is what lead me to look into the shock oil situation and compare them with the mugens.. Yep, Luis knows his stuff

LOL... I bought the 1mm < $4 from Bunnings... I also drooled over a FROST clutch pen like tool worth >$40 with an array of bits ranging from .6 - 1.6... Next time.. Catchya at the Park !!

cheers

h

PS:.. Back into playing GT on PS3 atm, waiting on job apps to come thru. Coming out to play on Friday night?
PPS: it's 1.59mm actually hehe..
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Old 01-20-2010, 09:13 PM   #11271
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Is this car any good? i just HEARD of it.. ITs MAD CHEAP!!! i want to buy one ..
Compared to the ntc3 how good is it? LMK PM ME OR OMSETHING TY
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Old 01-20-2010, 09:23 PM   #11272
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Im a nitro rookie... but i drive 1/12 scale electric.. soo
But i wanted to know is this car worth buying over the NTC3? Because it looks like it came out 5 years ago
Compared to the NTC3 How good is it?
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Old 01-21-2010, 06:22 AM   #11273
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Originally Posted by Chickentrader View Post
Its to lower CG Harry. I know that its different, but motorbike shocks used to be just like RC car shocks until someone invented the upside down shock, and all performance bikes now have them. You would think that manufacturers would already be onto this if it also works in RC racing, and I have yet to see any champion driver using that system.
Quote:
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Struggling to understand how a suspension system performs better moving the heavier object versus moving the lighter shaft and piston. Having said this, bishop too pointed out his hopped up bilstein shocks on the OVLOV work in this same way.

On a bike with forks I can understand how this might have benefits as the fork is part of the static assembly that would reduce the components and ultimately lighten the front end.
There is some confusing stuff with all that, from what I see RC cars already use an upside down/inverted shock.

On RC cars the body of the shock is on the top mounted to the chassis, shaft is connected to the arms, so the lightest past of the shock is on the arm, in reality this 'is' supposed to be the way to go.

Older cars and motorbikes, had/have the body of the shock/strut sitting/connected to the wheel/suspension/hub, with the shaft connected to the chassis in some way.

Motorcycles and cars started to invert that somewhere along the line, in cars with things like the Bilstein inserts in my Volvo front struts, the body of the shock is now mounted to the chassis, with a blank case inside the strut, acting piston shaft inside that, in theory it reduces the mass on the wheels etc, but it has other benefits.

On bikes it's a little more complex, inverting forks on bikes was partly about reducing the unsprung mass on the wheel etc, but there was a much bigger benefit on bikes, and that was strength/reduced flex, bikes forks used to have a lot of flex in them, when they went inverted putting the body up top, they could reduce the sliding inner tube length, and have the thickest part of the shock, the body, where it got the most loading, up top.

Err, further than that with RC car setup stuff, I'm still figuring that one out myself, I know I don't believe in a lot of rebound from the shock itself, I think that just upsets your spring rate, the new shocks I built for my JS have me a little out of sorts, the pistons with the new bits I bought have smaller holes than the original JS pistons, so with the 600 kit oil they feel too stiff, but I'll see how they go on tack, but I'll be drilling mine if they act as stiff as they felt building, also one have some binding I could not find the cause of.

I'm all over the place when it comes to building RC shocks, I was never good at it doing off road when I was a kid, still find it a bit frustrating.
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Old 01-21-2010, 08:04 AM   #11274
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Clairvoyant16 you have pm
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Old 01-21-2010, 10:40 AM   #11275
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Default Heya Matey.

Bishop, some drivers inverted shocks to get lower cg. Silly idea imho. I have a 1mm teeny drill bit you can use.. Im using 250 with the small holes and its equiv to 450 in Jeremy's mugen. But he's drilled them out as well.

Just made a vid of England park, if you check the 1:5 with my camera stapped to the roof, you'll see how bumpy the track is, so we need to lighten up the shocks.

Remember to drive the piston shaft UP into the shock before screwing down the cap.

cheers.

h
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Old 01-21-2010, 10:43 AM   #11276
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Is this car any good? i just HEARD of it.. ITs MAD CHEAP!!! i want to buy one ..
Compared to the ntc3 how good is it? LMK PM ME OR OMSETHING TY
The Junior versions are cheaper, but its probably worth getting hold of an RS spec car. Parts are readily available online and depends on the support you have at your club...

I wont swap mine, it's not the car that usually the problem. They are pretty, they are fast in the right hands, and I love mine.
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Old 01-28-2010, 12:14 AM   #11277
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Default G4S still going strong


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwciwvO6y9A
Running the G4S at England Park Raceway Brisbane, Australia!
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Old 01-28-2010, 12:17 AM   #11278
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Default Drilled out the shock pistons

Hey Blis,
I drilled out a single hole in the stock pistons to a single 1.5mm on each shock.
I'm very pleased with the results! Getting excellent grip in the last three turns of the track when compared with the stock piston.

Cheers
Ant.
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Old 01-28-2010, 06:13 AM   #11279
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Originally Posted by anthony_ling View Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwciwvO6y9A
Running the G4S at England Park Raceway Brisbane, Australia!
Nice vid, with the track temp I'm guessing that is recent...
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Old 01-28-2010, 06:49 AM   #11280
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Default AL's G4S

great vid...AL. that track looks fun!...
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