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Old 07-18-2007, 10:24 AM   #7681
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Originally Posted by casimirsa View Post
Glad to see that you are still running close to "standard" configuration! I have been contemplating to attempt in installing i LIPO, but is not prepared to cut the radio tray as Patojnr! Different strokes for different folks

2 questions though:
1. What make of springs are you using on the car? and
2. What is the motor and pipe combo?
1. front spring: Mugen 1.7mm whiteBlue, rear spring: Serpent 1.7 Yellow

2. EFRA-2630 + GR modified OS 12 TZ 3port

EFRA-2630 shows very smooth acceleration and good high speed.

too much torque cause mistake in corner-out.
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Old 07-18-2007, 10:41 AM   #7682
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Originally Posted by gansei View Post
1. front spring: Mugen 1.7mm whiteBlue, rear spring: Serpent 1.7 Yellow

2. EFRA-2630 + GR modified OS 12 TZ 3port

EFRA-2630 shows very smooth acceleration and good high speed.

too much torque cause mistake in corner-out.
Thanks for the info!

Since you are using other makes of springs. What is your experience with the TM springs?
Do you have a comparison chart that you work from between the different makes?
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Old 07-18-2007, 10:57 AM   #7683
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Hi Gansei,

I know before you were saying a lack of rear grip....

From your picture & text you say 1.7mm front & rear (although different makes) and with the Mugen 2.3mm roll bar, I think you may have the car too stiff on the rear.

Before we had a stiff rear roll bar we ran stiff rear springs to keep the car flat in the turn.....Now with a stiffer rear roll bar (that will keep the car flat in the turn) we can run a softer rear spring for more traction out of the turn.....

Good Luck.
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Old 07-18-2007, 11:00 AM   #7684
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Originally Posted by casimirsa View Post
Thanks for the info!

Since you are using other makes of springs. What is your experience with the TM springs?
Do you have a comparison chart that you work from between the different makes?
i have no comparison chart

mugen spring had more coil than TM's

so mugen spring is mider than TM in cornering.

TM's spring had more Quicker response than Mugen.

But i like mild acceleration and mild cornering.

Dario(European Champion) also using Mugen Spring.
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Old 07-18-2007, 11:09 AM   #7685
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Originally Posted by muppet racing View Post
Hi Gansei,

I know before you were saying a lack of rear grip....

From your picture & text you say 1.7mm front & rear (although different makes) and with the Mugen 2.3mm roll bar, I think you may have the car too stiff on the rear.

Before we had a stiff rear roll bar we ran stiff rear springs to keep the car flat in the turn.....Now with a stiffer rear roll bar (that will keep the car flat in the turn) we can run a softer rear spring for more traction out of the turn.....

Good Luck.

i also suffered from the lack of rear grip in last weekend..

of course.. the circuit traction is not high.

But other Car go well in that traction.


so i changed rear serpent yellow spring.

then.. rear is very stable.. But..i felt much understeer.


and.. i changed other spring what more stiffer than yellow spring.

But.. rear grip is some unstable.. (G4+ rear sway bar setup was 0)

so.. i removed G4+ adjustable rear swaybar.. and run with no rear swaybar

i could find more rear grip without rear swaybar.. and

i quess G4+ rear sway bar too stiff even 0 setup in not good traction.

so i changed mugen 2.3mm rear sway bar..

and then i found more rear grip.


this picture what i uploaded is not tested setup.

i will try it in this weekend.. if rear grip is too high... i will repace G4+ sway bar again..


thanks for your advice..
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Old 07-18-2007, 04:20 PM   #7686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gansei View Post
i also suffered from the lack of rear grip in last weekend..

of course.. the circuit traction is not high.

But other Car go well in that traction.


so i changed rear serpent yellow spring.

then.. rear is very stable.. But..i felt much understeer.


and.. i changed other spring what more stiffer than yellow spring.

But.. rear grip is some unstable.. (G4+ rear sway bar setup was 0)

so.. i removed G4+ adjustable rear swaybar.. and run with no rear swaybar

i could find more rear grip without rear swaybar.. and

i quess G4+ rear sway bar too stiff even 0 setup in not good traction.

so i changed mugen 2.3mm rear sway bar..

and then i found more rear grip.


this picture what i uploaded is not tested setup.

i will try it in this weekend.. if rear grip is too high... i will repace G4+ sway bar again..


thanks for your advice..
Gansei, we run very low grip track and at the best of times we fight for traction all the time: some tips i might give out weather there bnenifical or not:

Camber rear -3.0, -3.5, -4.0 settings with either this = No shims on top camber arm or try 5mm spacers on top camber arm!

I find TM Pink Spring or Purple for rear shock and 3x 1.5 holes in shock piston with 50Wt SHOCK OIL

Use 10,000 DIF OIL in rear fill either 1/2 full or 3/4 this provides a huge differance less oil less drive so less sideways action out of corner!

new flywing arms rear, push all the way forward using spacer kit to shorten rear wheel base.

Wheel Track rear 199

Tires: 37 or 38 shore GRP/Jacco/Kfactory, even DEVIL type tires work nicely

Front settings:

Spool Front
Aqua front Spring with same shock setup 3x1.5 holes in piston with 50,000
Caster neutral or 1 clip back towards motor to pull caster not forward but back....

Camber id say 1.5, 2.0, 2.5 MAX
Wheel track width 197

tires 37, 38 front tire

I am sure you know better and it might be just a few small adjustments but i am having better results with cr with new G4+ sway MUCH better than standard G4S

enjoy champ, ya car always looks sweet
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Last edited by Kodak Hodak; 07-19-2007 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 07-18-2007, 08:04 PM   #7687
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Be careful whe using the spacers on the Flash point top links to set up/ gain extra grip on the rear of the car!

Why? Because taking shims out and putting extra shims in CAN have the same effect !!

Why is this?
It's all to do with the top links angle in realation to the bottom A arm.

1: If the bottom A arm is horizontal.............
Removing shims will lower the rollcentre and give more rear end grip
Adding shims will raise the roll centre and take away some grip at the rear.

2: If the bottom A arm is higher at the baulkhead then at the hub carrier:IE pointing upwards towards the baulkhead.
Removing shims will RAISE the roll centre giving slightly less grip
Adding shims will Lower the roll centre giving more rear grip.
3: If the A arm points down. IE Lower at the baulkhead then at the hub
Removing shims will lower the roll centre, giving more rear end grip
Adding shims will raise the roll centre, giving slightly less rear grip.

NOTE

The adjustments made when rear lower A arm is in position described in point 2 or 3 above. Will give only marginal changes in rear roll centre and thus grip/ handling.
The adjustments made in point 1 above will have the greatest effect of the three points.

The largest effect on rear roll centre and thus grip from adjustment of the rear roll centre will be gained from only slight (!!) alterations to the angle of the bottom A arm. Deviations from this being horizotal will have 10 times the effect as adding or removing shims !!

Just trying to pass on my experience.

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Old 07-18-2007, 08:30 PM   #7688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kodak Hodak View Post
Gansei, we run very low grip track and at the best of times we fight for traction all the time: some tips i might give out weather there bnenifical or not:
.....
thanks for your advice..

i will retest G4+ sway bar!!

and.... are you doing G4 TransFormer Project?
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Old 07-18-2007, 10:51 PM   #7689
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thanks for your advice..

i will retest G4+ sway bar!!

and.... are you doing G4 TransFormer Project?
LOL - working out an idea to put something together, thinking of something but very difficult ill keep ya posted!!!
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Old 07-19-2007, 01:34 AM   #7690
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Hi Menace,

I agree with the theory, but on our car it simply does NOT work, especially in medium to low grip......

And, we dont have any adjustment for the angle of our bottom wishbone.

Lets not confuse peolple, Lets post stuff that we know actually works and can see an effect from.

I guess a lot of the theory comes from full size racing, yet if you scale the corner speeds up, we are going a fair bit quicker......I think we should be making our own principles.....And racing is always changing, look at how much more engine power we have compared to 3 or 4 years ago, so we change our cars to make best use of this or, some dont.........

Sorry for going on a bit, but I read lots of posts about theory, not so many about fact !
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Old 07-19-2007, 05:05 AM   #7691
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muppert you have a p.m
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Old 07-19-2007, 06:34 AM   #7692
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muppert you have a p.m
Hey grub, i was gonna come down to Bunbury to get a start with the G4+, but it looks like rain, so ill have to wait for next round, 5th of august
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Old 07-19-2007, 08:38 AM   #7693
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thanks for your advice..

i will retest G4+ sway bar!!

and.... are you doing G4 TransFormer Project?
sent project to the 3D guys today, so soon we shall see the G4S / Transforma guys at work said its possible to create "I am Excited"
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Old 07-19-2007, 08:41 AM   #7694
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Originally Posted by muppet racing View Post
Hi Menace,

I agree with the theory, but on our car it simply does NOT work, especially in medium to low grip......

And, we dont have any adjustment for the angle of our bottom wishbone.

Lets not confuse peolple, Lets post stuff that we know actually works and can see an effect from.

I guess a lot of the theory comes from full size racing, yet if you scale the corner speeds up, we are going a fair bit quicker......I think we should be making our own principles.....And racing is always changing, look at how much more engine power we have compared to 3 or 4 years ago, so we change our cars to make best use of this or, some dont.........

Sorry for going on a bit, but I read lots of posts about theory, not so many about fact !
as muppet said, he does make sense, and i call totally say that my car has changed in the rear with a 5mm shimmed on the camber arms!!!!

ill try the theory and report back
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Old 07-19-2007, 12:20 PM   #7695
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Originally Posted by muppet racing View Post
Hi Menace,

I agree with the theory, but on our car it simply does NOT work, especially in medium to low grip......

And, we dont have any adjustment for the angle of our bottom wishbone.

Lets not confuse peolple, Lets post stuff that we know actually works and can see an effect from.

I guess a lot of the theory comes from full size racing, yet if you scale the corner speeds up, we are going a fair bit quicker......I think we should be making our own principles.....And racing is always changing, look at how much more engine power we have compared to 3 or 4 years ago, so we change our cars to make best use of this or, some dont.........

Sorry for going on a bit, but I read lots of posts about theory, not so many about fact !

Thankyou for the reply Daz and you know what works out there and what doesn't better then many if not all. So I respect and go with what you say.

Yes, this does come from full scale racing and yes there are differences which I myself have seen and are still trying to come to grips with.
One of the biggest of these is cornering speed / forces on the car.
I so try and keep theory away from here, as much as I can. But thats the field I come from.
I set up full scale touring cars for Al Menu for the Touring car championships. Theory was my business then.

There is a way to alter the angle of the bottom A arm using ground clearence and tire size.......one difference to full scale stuff, altering tire sizes.
All of what I said is FACT! Now, the use of the info' by many may well be limited. The interest in the info' I think is higher.

Now saying that..................... I am comming to the same conclusion that you have mentioned Daz some posts ago and I want to re-state that here.

Do what works out there for YOU. Never mind about the theory, make adjustments, one at a time. Learn what works and what doesn't.....and get the car to do what you want and to act how you want.
Feel is everything. As you Daz have said. Do what works for you and your car and the theory book you can throw out the window.

But if you want to know why things work or do what they do when you make certain adjustments, I can tell you why.
Is it needed to know why..........No

Run the car, enjoy the car and enjoy the driving. Learn what works and have fun.

British Menace
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