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Old 03-11-2007, 04:43 AM   #5146
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hi guys
i had a crap day not the car my nova just keep overunning badly
still did some good lap times and quilys
but engine just didnt play the game in the b final
didnt finish that was my day over

congrats
to frankie rob and andrew
all finished in the top 10
well done guys
no racing for a month now time to put the whole thing down and start agqain i think
and put an o ring kit threw the nova think i must have an air leak

paul
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Old 03-11-2007, 05:05 AM   #5147
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Patto feel for you bud
Great to see car is working great and definately has pace.
Dissapointing on the finals though ,guess thats racing.
Sure we could be safe to double check our shafts after hearing about the front shaft.guess some metal fatigue on the threaded section is the culprit.might be an idea for TM to not thread the haft and possibly key the shaft and pulley with teh cap screw to lock it in place.
sue they will figure it out ,and hope its just a once off.

Good going though ,better luck next time.

Seems bad luck is going around at the moment.
Casimirsa had all hes gear sorted and this morning before heading out to the track was double checking everything to find his KO transmitter decided to call it quits
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Old 03-11-2007, 05:58 AM   #5148
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Hey Guys,

Well what can i say i am very happy with my results of being consistant 2nd placing in all my heats except 2nd heat as i had a steering end come loose "YUP the Mugen part unscrewed itself loos basically let going the steering coming onto the start/finish straight to plow into the concrete dived barrieer - YUP broken parts later found once finished that heat as i came back to the placings of 6th with 18laps, lucky not last but a good save "Hey Rob sorry for the roof ride man" my bloody bad right there for trying to catch up!

Ok on to the 1st heat, ED TRANS "YELLING IT LOUD & Proud this rockz off the start, now considerring i used a 50T 1st gear, it still had a great launch, after getting the clear run in 2nd behind Toy000 - it was a really easy car to drive with the split tires on the rear to the front...pattojnr this works a treat

As for speed and turn in circle Hello come to me corners, i was so impressed in how the car acclerated in the middle section of the track, and how it gained awesome turn in corner grip was just perfect!

For once i could keep up with rob, and play with him as a race, even at times id pass him to only stuff up in driver error - experince will get better of me as the future unfolds!

Also this time i had no major probs with Kosta, he drove well, but at the first heat had no chance to keep up, He later said "That ED trans was just not catchable in that heat, but he drove well" Well done for your consistant 3rd's Kosta, and bad luck not getting into the finals, as your car had mechanical failure!

Ok back tot he heat 1, sorry for long post, but overal it was a nice easy race, and little greasy! impressed with 2nd

Heat 2 - well no change to car, left the baby as it was and nice warm up laps before start!!!

Great clean start and yes i was leading the front, for about 5 laps till the steering arm came loose and made me head to the wall.... - brother grabbed the car, and thought it was over - NO WAY DIE ATTITUDE me, ran down the stairs inspected the car, and ran to pits to get the all mighty 2mm hex tool!

Within a 1minute i was back out again, hello comeback to get some laps in fast, yeah i should have backed off a tab, but i was on the mission to keep the laps in and times in..... Some areial misshaps on robs"Toy000" roof was a silly mistake of mine and yeah do oppoligise for that!

So in the end i finished 6th, hey its cool, but the car had a bit of broken bits - the front diff bulk plastic sentions that support the diff casing, and droop front settings had cracked good, and i was thinking of relacing with new ones, but felt not enough time!!!

So i thought glue the sucker, and slap the front bumper bar support back on with 0 droop!!! So then heat 3 came up, i knew i had to have a good clean race and stay away from trouble!!!

Heat 3 - it was good out lap warm up, car felt no change and it did what it wantd to do!

So the start arrives, all on the grid and set ready to go, and off we went. Sorta got a rub with Paul "gascar" in the pics below as you see, then got into a nice bingle with rob "Toy000" just happend, and it was ok, Kosat lead the race, while we all got our Arses back to the race and in race mode!

After 10 laps it was Kosta, Myself and Andrew in the top front, i made some silly errors, in a few corners that ran wide, but still kept at it for the position 1 .... After the few errors on the next lap i decided to pit now, get away from the front boys and get a clear track, as i pitted i saw the leader Kosta make an error, and i pounced on the oppurtunity to gain No.1 - Finally got to the number one thou had Andrew heavy on me but with close second, was only a matter of time till i made that little error again, then he pushed forward to gain No.1 while i drove it home to 2nd, i was happy for Heat 3 as it gave me a good placing in the Qualifer for the Finals No.1 as Rob "Toy000 & Andrew" got best TQ of the group B. Still i got 3rd Qualifer not bad for a rookie Any i must say the new HOPUPS from K-Factory made the car a new competitive car!

Ok guys, so Heat 1,2,3 are out of the way and FINALS B group had just been in progress!!!

What can i say, would have luved to have the guys in this final, like Rob, Andrew & Kosta - but needless to say it was a final that still had to be raced even with them already into group A.

So there was like 6 cars for Final B, and cars done and ready to go, got awesome start clean run out of the blocks, thanks to ED Trans, and off i went, had Nitro 88 "Kym" local man in GPX4 next o me close in second - i swear i had the best race right there with him, for lap after lap we basically talking to each other upstairs, lets take it easy and bring it home!! So funny man as while we race, then he spoke too soon to end up off the track!

So off i went in my groove, no pressure and clear air for the first 5mins, in the pits, fuel up via my brother paul, and off again, Small words from pit crew, keep it clean and tight your doing well!!

10min window came up as this was a 15min final, - in i come again holding No.1 postion and clear air again - basically it was running awesome, best lines i had, clean and a real fun drive for the finals to brin git home to No.1 WOOT WOOt!

I beter end now its getting way to long this post sorry guys, but yell i am excitted!!

Finals A - 15mins qualified 8th, came 9th with no tires left, one thing i can say to everyone using the ED trans, you must have the split on the rear taller than the fronts, or she will spin up crazy as my car did, all got hell sideways and found nice drive in the rear, so i mellowed out just to get laps in around the circuit and stay clear of everyone that was lapping me!

Ill atttack this field soon i reacon, Group B is the setup race, for the big guns in Group A - us G4S crew will get thee, i can smell it!!

Anyays best lap time for me was

21.6 not bad as i had best lap time last meet of 22.5

overal average lap time for each heat: 23.6 last meet was 25.4 so i can honeslt say ED trans is working

Enjoy some action shots guys!!!

Frankie "SerpantD the motor ROKZ"
Attached Thumbnails
Team Magic G4-dsc_0155.jpg   Team Magic G4-dsc_0174.jpg   Team Magic G4-dsc_0219.jpg   Team Magic G4-dsc_0234.jpg   Team Magic G4-dsc_0253.jpg  

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Old 03-11-2007, 06:01 AM   #5149
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more action shots!!
Attached Thumbnails
Team Magic G4-dsc_0055.jpg   Team Magic G4-dsc_0237.jpg   Team Magic G4-dsc_0238.jpg   Team Magic G4-dsc_0239.jpg   Team Magic G4-dsc_0240.jpg  

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Old 03-11-2007, 06:02 AM   #5150
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and a few more,
Attached Thumbnails
Team Magic G4-dsc_0244.jpg   Team Magic G4-dsc_0337.jpg   Team Magic G4-dsc_0339.jpg  
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Old 03-11-2007, 06:17 AM   #5151
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holy crap frankie thats not a post thats a novel
i dont know how it happened and i doubt any one will ever see it again but how the hell did your car manage to mount my car wheels too wheels while mine was skidding on its roof for 30 meters. thats some crazy stuff right there
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Old 03-11-2007, 06:19 AM   #5152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by royfan33
Well, I finally got a new body painted. I think I bit off more than I could chew. It is the first one I've done using liquid mask and waterbased paints. I learned a lot, and I think it will be easier the next time. For one thing I had quite a few areas that look like "bleed". I think in some cases I was scratching the previous color without realizing it before spraying the next. The waterbase paint seems soft, not as durable, to me. I painted the headlights instead of decals, pretty happy with the results. And I tried a carbon fiber effect. It doesn't show in the pics, but I really like the result.

I also learned a big no no. DO NOT try to add one more coat of white after removing the mask. I thought it was a little thin towards the front end, so I taped some paper down to block the windows, but some how it sucked the fumes or something in there and ruined them. This was from a spray can of white, non-waterbased, I had and I didn't want to get the air brush and everything back out. I was so pissed I couldn't see for a few seconds I guess it boils down to slowing down and taking my time.....

I also got the Ninja 12 installed along with the Speed Shot. I'm stoked to run it in....
Dude, you can clean your windows with 50% lacquer thinner and 50% rubbing alcohol. Unless you already used thinner.
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Old 03-11-2007, 08:26 AM   #5153
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Frankie...bro...that was a sweet post dude! It took about an hour to read it, but enjoyed it VERY much. If you ever loose your job as web designer, you could definitely het into journalism. You ROCK bro!!! Im glad that the engine is treating you right. I knew deep down that this was the motor for you whether I had one or not. I'm just glad I had that puppy laying around. It needed a good home, and found it!!!

Dude, I must say for a rookie, you are jammin man! I'm way proud of you with hang over and all. Your whole crew rocks!!!! You all keep up the great racing! It's all about the FUN factor!
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Old 03-11-2007, 08:29 AM   #5154
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Originally Posted by Serpentd
Frankie...bro...that was a sweet post dude! It took about an hour to read it, but enjoyed it VERY much. If you ever loose your job as web designer, you could definitely het into journalism. You ROCK bro!!! Im glad that the engine is treating you right. I knew deep down that this was the motor for you whether I had one or not. I'm just glad I had that puppy laying around. It needed a good home, and found it!!!

Dude, I must say for a rookie, you are jammin man! I'm way proud of you with hang over and all. Your whole crew rocks!!!! You all keep up the great racing! It's all about the FUN factor!
Sorry Frankie, it was PATTO with the hang over. Still luv ya bro!
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Old 03-11-2007, 08:52 AM   #5155
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Originally Posted by razzor
That design look great bud ,pity about teh problem at the end.
All the bodies that have been posted has really motivated me to do something good.
Thanks Razzor. I gave it a shot. I'm going to order another body and take my time this go around....



Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpentd
Dude, you can clean your windows with 50% lacquer thinner and 50% rubbing alcohol. Unless you already used thinner.
Thanks Serpentd, I think its too late though. My first reflex was to grab some thinnner. I think that really screwed it up. Believe me I won't do it again...By the way do you use waterbased paints? and if so do you coat them with regular paint or something after spraying. I love the ease of use and cleanup aspect of waterbased. It just seems to scratch very easily....
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Old 03-11-2007, 09:24 AM   #5156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pattojnr
Hey guys.
well very mixed bag from the weekend.
Saturday, qualifying, had good pace to start with firts time out, and made a few small changes after every qualifier and things improved. just couldnt crack the 18 laps for 5 mins. just 0.467 seconds off.
saturday night proved good company and some heavy drinking.
i started to influence the TQ driver to keep drinking, hoping he ight wake up the next morning bit seedy, well i think all 6 of us woke up feeling the same so early start and some work on the car before we head off to the track was really challenging as you do have some greasy food to try and wash the previouse night away, didnt quite help
so after truing some tires for the final and last qualifier. was chasing some more rear grip, and went out for a quick test and all was good. last qualifier was the best yet. car was good and think i set the quickest lap for the 2 days so far. so after every thing was sorted the top 3 went straight to the A final. MTX4 1st then me, G4S and Ed with a G4S.
now this is where things got mixed up. we had like nearly 2 hours before we run again, and any momentum was lost. in hot sunny weather , and feeling a bit seedy, things were getting hard but the final came, had a warm up and i think the car was as good as it had been all weekend. had a great start, took first for a few laps then made an error and had to let the next 4 guys through as i was pointing the wrong way, so playing catch up i was gaining every lap, i had an incident which i think chunked my tires a bit and the car was not as good anymore. after second fuel stop, i had regained 2nd and due to others having some probs, had a 3 lap buffer. 8 mins of the 20 min final remaining, thinks looked great for a second finish. then here we go !
going on to the back straight, i saw a slower car sitting to the inside of the track, didnt back off as he wasnt moving, then as i approached, he turned right infront of me and i T boned at full throttle, saw some bits fly and, let out some words of dissapointment. now the car was put back on the track, and was instant spin out on power, so i made it back to the pits and inspected the car, no side belt. so i ran to get a nother to put on, and maybe salvage a third, but no could not do that. front side pulley missing. impact was head on, and no other visable damage, but yet the impact of the t bone seemed to instantly snap the front layshaft. was a very clean break where the pulley screws on to. if this shaft was a bit stronger material, i dont think it would have snapped, and then the belt wouldnt have come off. so i would have been able to drive on and finish. so this is another issue of the ED trans which i think needs addressing. ok needs to be light, but what about the strength of the parts, we spend our hard earned money on ?
anyway finished 8th on the day. good experience at a different track, but bad result at the end of the day. hope others had a better days racing
Dude, you are doing incredible!! Very good job on the track. I'm way sorry to hear about the misfotune due to an idiot driver on the straight. This is a reminder to all, that if your car spins out or is in trouble anywhere on the track at anytime being practice or a race, you need to YELL OUT what part of the track to watch out for. Especially the STRAIGHT!! Yell out BACK STRAIGHT over and over until you are in the clear. This will help prevent damage to your car and someone elses. Remember that the guys on the drivers stand can get VERY focused on their race and not hear you right away if you just quietly say back straight once! It's your responsibility to let the field know you are in trouble. If this idiot would have yelled out BACK STRAIGHT then Patto would have slowed down and been more aware of an issue there. So I'm not calling the other driver an idiot for spinning out on the straight or whatever happened, but for being an idiot for not YELLING out. Sorry, but this is something that will piss me off more then anything.

Anyway, Patto, not your fault bro. You ran a strong run and should have finished properly. Keep up the great racing my friend! I can't wait to see how your weekend goes next Sunday. Your going to be banging on some Mugen back doors pretty hard I am thinking. YEAH BABY!!!!! Anyway dude, good job. Keep it up bro!. Later.
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Old 03-11-2007, 10:37 AM   #5157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by royfan33
Thanks Razzor. I gave it a shot. I'm going to order another body and take my time this go around....





Thanks Serpentd, I think its too late though. My first reflex was to grab some thinnner. I think that really screwed it up. Believe me I won't do it again...By the way do you use waterbased paints? and if so do you coat them with regular paint or something after spraying. I love the ease of use and cleanup aspect of waterbased. It just seems to scratch very easily....
Your welcome bro. Yeah, it's game over once the thinner hits that lexan. I have a jar of the 50/50 mix (Lacquer thinner/Isopropal alcohol) on had always. Even if the paint dries this mixture will work. As far as the water based paint, yes I have started to use it. So I'm am in a learning curve as well. A few things with the water base. It will scratch easy in the first 24 hours. It needs a minimum of 24 hours of cure time. It doesn't cure fast like lacquer. It dries fast, but needs that cure time. But there is an awesome coat you can put on to avoid scratches. If you use the Parma stuff, it's called Fascoat. Now a few things about this stuff, it's a milky white so not quite clear, it's VERY sticky, and pretty thick. To spray with it you need to crank that pressure up to about 75psi. After you do one coat of it and waiting for your body to dry, clean it out IMMEDIATELY!! Don't even let it sit in your airbrush for 20 seconds. They recommend 3 coats of this stuff, but 2 is plenty. I put it on medium sort of on the heavy side. It's so sticky and thick that it doesn't run easily. Just don't go way thick.

A few more tips is to spray your first coat or two thin to seal against your masking to avoid bleeding. Some of these colors need 5 to 6 coats I am finding. After you are done with whatever color you have just sprayed, backit with the silver. Even if it's black, back it with the silver. You will want to do this on EVERY color. This will prevent any color showing through. Always try and start with dark colors first when you can of coarse. If you are doing flourescent colors, back them with white and then silver. Metalics just silver. Any other colors like red, green orange etc, I back with white also and then silver.

If you need to thin the paint for small detail like free hand lightning or something, I make a mixture of 50/50 (windex/isopropal alcohol). Yes it sounds funky, but works great. Anyway, take the 50/50 mixture and add it to 2 parts paint to 1 part mix. So around 1/3rd thinning stuff. I'll usually just mix it right in the cup. A dab of windex and a dab of rubbing alcohol and then I break a Q-tip in half and use it as a mixing stick. Spray a little first until the "thinned" mixture is through the airbrush. Then your ready to go. Only use this if you are using a smaller tip though. Normally you need to use a medium tip to spray the paint straight out of the bottle.

Anyway, if you have any questions let me know. I've been airbrushing for about 10 years or so, even though I just started with the waterbase (one body) as yourself. Last tip, if you are using Bob Dively's liquid mask, brush on 3 (THREE) good coats. 2 will NEVER cut it. Good luck bro. I'm actually going to get painting right now. I have well over 10 bodies I need to do for me and others. Talk soon bro. Later!
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Old 03-11-2007, 01:13 PM   #5158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpentd
Your welcome bro. Yeah, it's game over once the thinner hits that lexan. I have a jar of the 50/50 mix (Lacquer thinner/Isopropal alcohol) on had always. Even if the paint dries this mixture will work. As far as the water based paint, yes I have started to use it. So I'm am in a learning curve as well. A few things with the water base. It will scratch easy in the first 24 hours. It needs a minimum of 24 hours of cure time. It doesn't cure fast like lacquer. It dries fast, but needs that cure time. But there is an awesome coat you can put on to avoid scratches. If you use the Parma stuff, it's called Fascoat. Now a few things about this stuff, it's a milky white so not quite clear, it's VERY sticky, and pretty thick. To spray with it you need to crank that pressure up to about 75psi. After you do one coat of it and waiting for your body to dry, clean it out IMMEDIATELY!! Don't even let it sit in your airbrush for 20 seconds. They recommend 3 coats of this stuff, but 2 is plenty. I put it on medium sort of on the heavy side. It's so sticky and thick that it doesn't run easily. Just don't go way thick.

A few more tips is to spray your first coat or two thin to seal against your masking to avoid bleeding. Some of these colors need 5 to 6 coats I am finding. After you are done with whatever color you have just sprayed, backit with the silver. Even if it's black, back it with the silver. You will want to do this on EVERY color. This will prevent any color showing through. Always try and start with dark colors first when you can of coarse. If you are doing flourescent colors, back them with white and then silver. Metalics just silver. Any other colors like red, green orange etc, I back with white also and then silver.

If you need to thin the paint for small detail like free hand lightning or something, I make a mixture of 50/50 (windex/isopropal alcohol). Yes it sounds funky, but works great. Anyway, take the 50/50 mixture and add it to 2 parts paint to 1 part mix. So around 1/3rd thinning stuff. I'll usually just mix it right in the cup. A dab of windex and a dab of rubbing alcohol and then I break a Q-tip in half and use it as a mixing stick. Spray a little first until the "thinned" mixture is through the airbrush. Then your ready to go. Only use this if you are using a smaller tip though. Normally you need to use a medium tip to spray the paint straight out of the bottle.

Anyway, if you have any questions let me know. I've been airbrushing for about 10 years or so, even though I just started with the waterbase (one body) as yourself. Last tip, if you are using Bob Dively's liquid mask, brush on 3 (THREE) good coats. 2 will NEVER cut it. Good luck bro. I'm actually going to get painting right now. I have well over 10 bodies I need to do for me and others. Talk soon bro. Later!
Thanks for taking the time to post the tips Serpentd. I'm gonna print this out for future use. I think I was born without the art gene, so its an uphill battle for me to begin with
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Old 03-11-2007, 04:23 PM   #5159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kodak Hodak
Hey Guys,

Well what can i say i am very happy with my results of being consistant 2nd placing in all my heats except 2nd heat as i had a steering end come loose "YUP the Mugen part unscrewed itself loos basically let going the steering coming onto the start/finish straight to plow into the concrete dived barrieer - YUP broken parts later found once finished that heat as i came back to the placings of 6th with 18laps, lucky not last but a good save "Hey Rob sorry for the roof ride man" my bloody bad right there for trying to catch up!

Ok on to the 1st heat, ED TRANS "YELLING IT LOUD & Proud this rockz off the start, now considerring i used a 50T 1st gear, it still had a great launch, after getting the clear run in 2nd behind Toy000 - it was a really easy car to drive with the split tires on the rear to the front...pattojnr this works a treat

As for speed and turn in circle Hello come to me corners, i was so impressed in how the car acclerated in the middle section of the track, and how it gained awesome turn in corner grip was just perfect!

For once i could keep up with rob, and play with him as a race, even at times id pass him to only stuff up in driver error - experince will get better of me as the future unfolds!

Also this time i had no major probs with Kosta, he drove well, but at the first heat had no chance to keep up, He later said "That ED trans was just not catchable in that heat, but he drove well" Well done for your consistant 3rd's Kosta, and bad luck not getting into the finals, as your car had mechanical failure!

Ok back tot he heat 1, sorry for long post, but overal it was a nice easy race, and little greasy! impressed with 2nd

Heat 2 - well no change to car, left the baby as it was and nice warm up laps before start!!!

Great clean start and yes i was leading the front, for about 5 laps till the steering arm came loose and made me head to the wall.... - brother grabbed the car, and thought it was over - NO WAY DIE ATTITUDE me, ran down the stairs inspected the car, and ran to pits to get the all mighty 2mm hex tool!

Within a 1minute i was back out again, hello comeback to get some laps in fast, yeah i should have backed off a tab, but i was on the mission to keep the laps in and times in..... Some areial misshaps on robs"Toy000" roof was a silly mistake of mine and yeah do oppoligise for that!

So in the end i finished 6th, hey its cool, but the car had a bit of broken bits - the front diff bulk plastic sentions that support the diff casing, and droop front settings had cracked good, and i was thinking of relacing with new ones, but felt not enough time!!!

So i thought glue the sucker, and slap the front bumper bar support back on with 0 droop!!! So then heat 3 came up, i knew i had to have a good clean race and stay away from trouble!!!

Heat 3 - it was good out lap warm up, car felt no change and it did what it wantd to do!

So the start arrives, all on the grid and set ready to go, and off we went. Sorta got a rub with Paul "gascar" in the pics below as you see, then got into a nice bingle with rob "Toy000" just happend, and it was ok, Kosat lead the race, while we all got our Arses back to the race and in race mode!

After 10 laps it was Kosta, Myself and Andrew in the top front, i made some silly errors, in a few corners that ran wide, but still kept at it for the position 1 .... After the few errors on the next lap i decided to pit now, get away from the front boys and get a clear track, as i pitted i saw the leader Kosta make an error, and i pounced on the oppurtunity to gain No.1 - Finally got to the number one thou had Andrew heavy on me but with close second, was only a matter of time till i made that little error again, then he pushed forward to gain No.1 while i drove it home to 2nd, i was happy for Heat 3 as it gave me a good placing in the Qualifer for the Finals No.1 as Rob "Toy000 & Andrew" got best TQ of the group B. Still i got 3rd Qualifer not bad for a rookie Any i must say the new HOPUPS from K-Factory made the car a new competitive car!

Ok guys, so Heat 1,2,3 are out of the way and FINALS B group had just been in progress!!!

What can i say, would have luved to have the guys in this final, like Rob, Andrew & Kosta - but needless to say it was a final that still had to be raced even with them already into group A.

So there was like 6 cars for Final B, and cars done and ready to go, got awesome start clean run out of the blocks, thanks to ED Trans, and off i went, had Nitro 88 "Kym" local man in GPX4 next o me close in second - i swear i had the best race right there with him, for lap after lap we basically talking to each other upstairs, lets take it easy and bring it home!! So funny man as while we race, then he spoke too soon to end up off the track!

So off i went in my groove, no pressure and clear air for the first 5mins, in the pits, fuel up via my brother paul, and off again, Small words from pit crew, keep it clean and tight your doing well!!

10min window came up as this was a 15min final, - in i come again holding No.1 postion and clear air again - basically it was running awesome, best lines i had, clean and a real fun drive for the finals to brin git home to No.1 WOOT WOOt!

I beter end now its getting way to long this post sorry guys, but yell i am excitted!!

Finals A - 15mins qualified 8th, came 9th with no tires left, one thing i can say to everyone using the ED trans, you must have the split on the rear taller than the fronts, or she will spin up crazy as my car did, all got hell sideways and found nice drive in the rear, so i mellowed out just to get laps in around the circuit and stay clear of everyone that was lapping me!

Ill atttack this field soon i reacon, Group B is the setup race, for the big guns in Group A - us G4S crew will get thee, i can smell it!!

Anyays best lap time for me was

21.6 not bad as i had best lap time last meet of 22.5

overal average lap time for each heat: 23.6 last meet was 25.4 so i can honeslt say ED trans is working

Enjoy some action shots guys!!!

Frankie "SerpantD the motor ROKZ"

Hey frankie well done mate love the pics of our cars.do ya know the positions for the b final and the a final
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Old 03-11-2007, 04:39 PM   #5160
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