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Old 02-18-2007, 11:44 PM   #4171
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hi guys
just remember that new guys will change something at the drop of the hat if a pro guys says its right
man i have done it 100s of times
i think the thing to remember is to change things one at at time
to try see if its better or worse for u as eveyones car, track and driving style is different
this shock thing has got me worried about mine now but it sould'nt
as if u are happy with your car then leave it
but write down your settings so u know whats good for u
u know the saying (if it aint broke why fix it !!!)
but its is also great to try other guys ideas and setups
but one thing at a time i case it doesnt work for u
at least u know what u changed and can return it to the earlyer setting if it didnt help u
so this is just to let the newbies like myself know that this is very advanced stuff this shock think, and not to panic to much as i said before if your cars ok
dont go looking for things to change for the sake of it

personally i find that the AFMs posts to be unreal easy to understand
so if he has a view on this shock thing would love to hear it


all u guys on here are simply the best, your tips and setups are fantastic
as sam said dont stop posting them as none of them are right or wrong for anyone
gees the weather can throw the best setup on your car out the window in 5mins flat
so lets all feel the g4s loooovvee and kick some mugen butt
onya boys
just my two bobs worth

paul
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Old 02-19-2007, 12:23 AM   #4172
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Guys,

Thanks for all the info on the shock build. Each perspective is really appreciated by everyone in our forum.

Now I just want to share my latest practice session experience here at Rev raceway.

I usually run front one-way and 30K oil in rear diff here at Revelation(http://revrace.com/) where the track is med size, and has med-high grip. I used 45 fronts and 42 rears, no split.

Today, I tried the front spool, and left all the other settings alone. Boy what a difference!!! I'm able to geton the throttle sooner and let go later because I have full use of brakes. The car doesn't wander and just goes where I pointed it. I am able to keep the throttle open on the sweeper. All this and not loose any turn-in, or on power steering. I hesitated for a long time whether or not to use the spool because I might loose steering, but I proved it wrong. Lap times were consistantly lower by 0.5 seconds. I just need more practice with this set-up. I don't think I'll switch back to the one-way, at least not at Rev.

I don't have the ED tranny yet, but I've been using the 18T brake and side pulley, and did notice an good improvement in pickup and withouth suffering on the top end. It would be nice if someone else ran the ED system here, or another G4s for that matter. But I'm still the lone G4 among a sea of Mugens, RRR, and snakes.

I also got to say that these GQ tires can take a beating. I'm running a set close to the rim already and still no wobble. They may cost just a tad more than other brands, but they sure do last. There may be some tires that are cheaper, but if you have to throw them because they get off alignment after a small hit, then you are actually spending more.

Thanks Sam for your support and hope to race with you soon.
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Old 02-19-2007, 12:23 AM   #4173
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Guys ,the shock setup is a touchy subject it seems !!!
From my experience and that is with out outside influence untill now that I can get info and reasons for the info on this great thread.
I have always built mt shocks be it on road electric .off road MT and 1/8 and any rc car with oil shocks ,with teh following.
I alwys have rebound of 1/4 to 1/3 travel max.
It has worked for me and untill I try the method suggested I will post my feed back.But I guess you get comfortable with what works fro you and if its not working in a negative manner then its working positively in my book.
My advice on the topic is if it works use it and if prepared to try the different methods then do so just note the benefits and make a choice to which works better for you.I think the one key factor when using the rebound method is make sure they rebound the same.

On a different note ,I had a ball at the nats and learnt a lot as this has been the first event that I had to work so hard on setup and rebuilds from mishaps and errors made.
At the end of the weekend my car was simply awesome to drive and can confidently say I was definately the fastest in my mains but had some unfortunate luck by getting taken out in the first corner ,so dropped from 3rd to last.
I managed to get up to 5th at one stage and got rear ended again only to find teh marshalls giving me the stop go penalty.I fell back from the leaders by one lap and every time I made up ground on them to unlap myself i got caught up passing guys and made a few mistakes.One mistake was pushing a bit to hard to get a pass a car and I clipped the corner putting me backwards into the pipes ,pulling out the rear upper arm.managed to fix it quickly and get out and enjoy the rst of the race.

finished 8th but with a smile on my face that everyone could see
The result might not be what I wanted the but the enjoyment had was much better knowing my car was dialled
So on to the next Nat in 2 months time and I am more confident of a good result next time around.

I big thanks to the guys on this thread and 3hobby for the positive exchange of ideas and setup info ,with out this I wouldnt be moving forward with my racing and also the ability to help others out at the track.
Big THUMBS UP to everyone running a G4S

We had 2 G4S's in the Bmains with a 4th and 8th place finish and 3rd and 7th qualifying.

We fitted a ED on the other guys car on Saterday after qualifiers and can positively say on this track it made a world of a difference and Ray is absolutely blown away with the improvement in performance.
We come away happy from this event and also with good news that we will be having 2 new guys join our G4S family.
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Last edited by razzor; 02-19-2007 at 01:17 AM.
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Old 02-19-2007, 03:23 AM   #4174
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Hi All,

Does any of you have problems when servicing the diff's?

When re-building mine, I ended up putting two gasgets in the rear ones as when I tightened down the screws holding the two halves together, the bevel gears would bind, giving a 'notchy' very stiff feal. Once I put the second gasget in. It was fine???

I tried two or three times with one gasget, but to no avail.

Menace

Ps:

Shocks?............. without going into a whole load of stuff which would be really difficult to explain without the use of photo,s and hard anyway cause I'm half asleap working nights. The main thing is to build all your shocks the same way, using the same method. The use of a shock balancing tool, like the Losi Shock balancer, is really useful for this.
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Old 02-19-2007, 05:12 AM   #4175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by British Menace
Hi All,

Does any of you have problems when servicing the diff's?

When re-building mine, I ended up putting two gasgets in the rear ones as when I tightened down the screws holding the two halves together, the bevel gears would bind, giving a 'notchy' very stiff feal. Once I put the second gasget in. It was fine???
I tried two or three times with one gasget, but to no avail.
Menace
Howdy Menace. ive never had a problem like yours. only thing i can think is the 'O' ring on drive cup is thicker than normal ? pushing the big gear in closer to the spider bevel gears when tightened up. or the shim over the 'O' Ring is thicker. but i never had this problem. hope this helps.
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Old 02-19-2007, 05:57 AM   #4176
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Default what type of shoe you are favorite?

what type of shoe you are favorite?

Black Or Red?

i feel good more Black than Red.

But Black Shoe Too Fast worn out --;;
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Old 02-19-2007, 06:04 AM   #4177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gansei
what type of shoe you are favorite?

Black Or Red?

i feel good more Black than Red.

But Black Shoe Too Fast worn out --;;
Howdy Gansei, i have only used the black shoe. not worn out yet. i dont have my springthat hard for it to slip to cause the wear. i know some wind the spring up till it starts slipping then back it off a bit, but on low traction track i havent tried winding the spring any harder. so i suppose thats why mine isnt wearing too quickly. but id like to try the red one and the shoe weights. but i have it good now so i dont feel the need for change.
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Old 02-19-2007, 06:25 AM   #4178
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Default um..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pattojnr
Howdy Gansei, i have only used the black shoe. not worn out yet. i dont have my springthat hard for it to slip to cause the wear. i know some wind the spring up till it starts slipping then back it off a bit, but on low traction track i havent tried winding the spring any harder. so i suppose thats why mine isnt wearing too quickly. but id like to try the red one and the shoe weights. but i have it good now so i dont feel the need for change.
attached file is my black shoe picture (4-5days used)

this is a my clurch setting

Clearance: 0.7mm, End Play: 0.2mm, Spring 1.8 Black,

weight shim: 2 EA, Spring Lock: 0.8mm

is my clurch setup Wrong?
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Old 02-19-2007, 06:41 AM   #4179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gansei
attached file is my black shoe picture (4-5days used)

this is a my clurch setting

Clearance: 0.7mm, End Play: 0.2mm, Spring 1.8 Black,

weight shim: 2 EA, Spring Lock: 0.8mm

is my clurch setup Wrong?
doesnt sound wrong at all. but different tracks and engines. the current setup i have seems very good, but for me and my conditions.
that is 0.45 clearance, 0.15 end play, 0.7 spring tention black spring
1 weight in shoe. i think ZOOM ended up with a very similar setting. so that was comforting to know
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Old 02-19-2007, 08:42 AM   #4180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gansei
what type of shoe you are favorite?

Black Or Red?

i feel good more Black than Red.

But Black Shoe Too Fast worn out --;;
I have actually experienced the opposite and have more wear on my engine with the red shoe.
But I guess it would also be effected by how much slip it gets.
I do find the red shoe to have less aggressive bite compared to the black ,seems to slip a bit when engaging.
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Old 02-19-2007, 09:41 AM   #4181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gascar 24
personally i find that the AFMs posts to be unreal easy to understand
so if he has a view on this shock thing would love to hear it

paul
I've read all the posts regarding the issue of shock "rebound", and allthough I agree with the concept of whatever works for you is OK, I must say that technically speaking, all shocks "must" have rebound built to them.....the question is how much.....

Side Note: If you take a 1:1 car's shock and compress the shaft and then let it go, it will start to return back to extended at a certain speed, that is why when you buy a new set, they come compressed with a plastic or metal strip.

It is a question of speed, or how fast the shock's rod returns after it is compressed, which depends on the number of holes in the piston, the viscosity of the oil used, and the amount of oil placed on the shock.....but you must have rebound.

Adjusting rebound:
Once the top cap has been tightened down firmly, check the rebound speed by pressing in the shock rod all the way and letting it go.
If the rebound is too fast, unscrew the top cap and push in the piston all the way, in order to let some oil leak out of the sides of the cap, and then screw the top cap back on firmly. (some shocks have a bleeding hole on the cap)
It is important to have all four shocks provide a similar medium-quick smooth rebound (I set them up to have a 5mm return after fully compressed).

NOTE: It is normal for some oil to bleed out of the bottom of freshly-filled shocks during the first few runs of the car. However, they will equalize at the right pressure without letting any air in if the O-rings are still in good condition.

AFM
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Old 02-19-2007, 01:56 PM   #4182
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AFM you have it. It is also important that the rebound speed be equal in the shocks. Take one shock in each hand, compress the shaft down equally and then let go. The speed should be the same and the distance out should be the same. Measure the distance of rebound with calipers and speed is measured by eye.

Real race cars shocks always have rebound. As a pro sprint car racer, when we raced without the wing, my car was set up with a tie down shock on the left rear, the compression could be 300lbs and the rebound 500lbs ( don't remember exact numbers). This was to hold the left side of the car down so it wouldn't flip in the turns. My point is only that shocks are a tuning point of your car. The oil weight changes the compression and the rebound and we use this to tune to the track.
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Old 02-19-2007, 02:57 PM   #4183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G4S'er
AFM you have it. It is also important that the rebound speed be equal in the shocks. Take one shock in each hand, compress the shaft down equally and then let go. The speed should be the same and the distance out should be the same. Measure the distance of rebound with calipers and speed is measured by eye.

Real race cars shocks always have rebound. As a pro sprint car racer, when we raced without the wing, my car was set up with a tie down shock on the left rear, the compression could be 300lbs and the rebound 500lbs ( don't remember exact numbers). This was to hold the left side of the car down so it wouldn't flip in the turns. My point is only that shocks are a tuning point of your car. The oil weight changes the compression and the rebound and we use this to tune to the track.
Very true indeed. So I am curious:

1. Why do we not have a rebound setting on our "set up" sheets to keep track of this. LIke little rebound, medium rebound...etc.

2. The G4S manual is written very poorly on shock building IMO. Meaning that they say fill the shock up, get the air out and top it off. Then put the cap on.

HMMM? I don't even know if the shock would compress all the way with these directions. I will write down on how I build these older style bladder shocks with no bleed hole. Just Like the Serpents 10 years ago.

1. I fill the shock up with oil about 1-2 mm from top and then bleed the air.

2. After ALL the air is out, I make sure that I maintain my 1-2 mm of oil from the top of the shock. Start with more oil then less, so go 1 mm until you get the hang of it. If you don't use enough oil you might get air in the shock and have to rebleed the air. BUMMER!!!!

3. I then push up the shock shaft about 2-3mm from bottom and put the bladder in the shock by itself, without the cap at this point. This is where the excess oil will "bleed out".

4. Then I pull the shock shaft out AFTER the bladder is on the shock. You may want to hold the bladder in position while you pull out the shaft. You will see it seal the bladder to the top of the shock.

5. Then, put on your cap while holding the shaft out still, and tighten. I also recommend to remove the o rings as they serve no purpose. The bladder seals the shock, not the o ring.

6. After you have done all 4 shocks, check your rebound. I prefer minimum for a more consistant build week after week. However, make sure the speed and distance of rebound is equal on all 4 shocks as stated above by G4S'er and afm.

NOTE: if you want to play with rebound, push in the shock shaft either more for less rebound or less for more rebound before you put the bladder on.

This technique should help you to build shocks consistantly with or without rebound. Your choice. But this is a very consistant way to build your shocks equally every time. Takes a bit of practice, but it takes out the guess work of how much oil do I put in the shock, as 1 drop of oil can change the characteristics from one shock to the other.

Note #2: You might have to trim the top, outer edge of the bladder at a 45 degree angle to make it easier to put the cap on without disrupting the bladder. But only do this is you have to. And when I say the top of the bladder, I mean just the sharp part or you will loose the seaaling properties of the bladder. I don't want you to mess up a bladder.

Hope this helps out a bit since no one really explained how to "build" it properly in the first place. Good luck guys!!!
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Old 02-19-2007, 04:06 PM   #4184
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Maybe having some rebound isn't nonsense after all?

Now back to what I originally posted as to the why I use rebound or more accurately more shock internal pressure....

If you have internal pressure, you can use a softer spring for a given situation. This is because the spring and the pressurised shock then act together to damp the bumps and loads on the bump stroke, but the shock will return to it's uncompressed state faster on the rebound stroke to be ready for the next bump.

It's simple really. And it's also the same reason the 1:1 size cars came up with gas pressurised shocks to enable manufacturers to have a softer ride for the same grip and not have to put harder and harder springs in their cars.

While the comments above have suggested having a small amount of rebound, my experience is that you can have some more rebound and a softer oil/spring combination for better results in low traction conditions.

If you race on VHT tracks all the time, then you may never notice any benefit. Again, it comes down to what works on the day for those conditions.

As for building the shocks, I drilled holes in all my shock caps so I can bleed them evenly for consistent rebound.

If we were meant to use the same techniques as 10 years ago, we would still be running 1/8th 2wd pan cars. Live and learn I guess.
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Old 02-19-2007, 04:15 PM   #4185
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Not to say any ones ideas are bad but, it is almost impossible to get the shocks rebound perfect. I prefer to use foam or O-Rings above the bladder for rebound.
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