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Old 02-04-2007, 06:14 PM   #3781
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Originally Posted by uniquexme
hmm, its hard to explain, well, its the steering block where we have 2 big silver nut, at the place we tune our tire width. coz some1 told me to lock it until it doesn't move, but i found that locking it too much (still some tiny movement), it is not very nice to drive, corner in is big sometimes.
Is this what you are talking about? These are the nuts that tighten up the pillow balls. Look at the pics and let me know.
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Team Magic G4-pillow-ball-nuts-001.jpg   Team Magic G4-pillow-ball-nuts-004.jpg   Team Magic G4-pillow-ball-nuts-005.jpg  
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Old 02-04-2007, 07:24 PM   #3782
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Originally Posted by Serpentd
As everyone here should know I haven't ran my G4S yet because of weather conditions. However I ran S720 for one race (4 days). So this is why I refer to it often.

Gensei, I think your diff oils are off. Too thick in rear. I had my S720 with 30K in the rear and 100K in the front. Handleing was very good for turns. I think you should go to 30K rear for starters and maybe even 20k, then maybe go to 60K up front. But one thing at a time of coarse to note the changes. So try 30 K in rear for starters.

For more initial turn in, give your front tires some toe out. Around 1/2-1 degree toe OUT on EACH side. Start with 1/2 first. This will give you better initial turn in.

If you already have toe out, then try to give the rear toe less of the toe in. If you are at 3 degrees toe in on the rear, go to 2.5 degrees toe in. Or if you are at 2.5 now, go to 2.0 degrees etc. This will give you better turn in and better straight away speed. However you might loose a little bit of rear traction through corners if you go too much and a little less stable on the straights as well if you go too much. So like you already know, one small step at a time.

Also, are you running a 2mm split on your tires for proper overdrive? This can make quite a difference too. Something to double check.

You could also change your caster by putting more shims behind the front upper A arms. Again...a little at a time. This should help with initial turn in, but you might loose on power steering if you go too much. It's about finding that balance of all the adjustments working together.

I would start with the diffs first. then toe out on the front or less toe in on the rear. and then caster changes last. It's hard to tell you exactly without knowing all the set up info you currently have on you car. Including tire shore, tire overdrive (diameter) and track conditions.

Good luck, and hope this helps more then hinders you. Ask away if you need to my friend. Later bro!
thanks for your advice.

i will test it as you advice.

and i forgot droop setting.

front droop was 3mm rear droop was 4mm..

i will also change droop setting in this weekend.
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Old 02-04-2007, 07:25 PM   #3783
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Originally Posted by Serpentd
Is this what you are talking about? These are the nuts that tighten up the pillow balls. Look at the pics and let me know.
yeah bro, thats the one i m talking about. so may i know to wat extend these nuts must be tightened up to? for front and rear, do we do the same?
thanks for your time to take those photo.
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Old 02-04-2007, 09:33 PM   #3784
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Originally Posted by gansei
hi G4S users!

i had hardships in today running.

corner-in response is some slow.

and on-throttle understeer is happen.

i frequently changed Shock setting. But i could not solve it.

my diff setting is front 50000wt and rear 40000wt.

i want to know that the very easy setting to solve on-throttle understeer.

Gansei,

I know this is going to sound crazy to others but just give it a try and please let me know how it works for you:

Front
start with 1 of toe out
stiffest front roll bar
40 wt shock oil with 1.3 mm holes (this will depend greatly on the tracks surface)
2mm caster (right in the middle position)
shocks is lowest position
blue springs
2 or 2.5 camber and adjust according to tire wear
60k or 70k wt oil in the front diff (only to prevent oversteering out of the turn because I am already using 50k in the back diff)
2mm or 3mm of droop

Rear
3.5 toe in!! (I know, I know)
between 3 and 4 of camber
50k wt oil in the diff!! (please try it)
50 wt oil in the shocks with 1.3 mm holes also
purple springs, maybe acquas
original antiroll bar, totally flat (I know you are using the Mugen one, but please remove it for the trial!!)
shocks at the lowest position as well.
do not use the down stops at the back to allow lots of weight transfer to the front.
Keep your roll centers as per the out-of-box settings


You will get some drag on the straigthaway from this setting, but it has given me plenty in-and-out of the turn steering with no wash-offs.

You can keep tire shores the same from front to back or 40 fronts and 42 rears. The only reason for me to use harder rears is that our track is very abbrasive and this helps keep tire wear closer front to back, as does the 2mm split. Tire shore is obviously dependant on track conditions but keep them close from front to back.

While testing, I found that using 50k oils in the diffs front and back at the same time gave me too much steering out of the turns. But, if you have higher traction than I do, then you could even try using that same oil front and back. Since you already have 50k at the front, just change the back diff and start off with the rest of the settings you already have.

I see you are a proficient mechanic, so this experiment should not take you a long time.

Please give me your inputs when you get a chance!

Last edited by gtrmx; 02-04-2007 at 09:47 PM.
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Old 02-04-2007, 10:33 PM   #3785
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Originally Posted by uniquexme
yeah bro, thats the one i m talking about. so may i know to wat extend these nuts must be tightened up to? for front and rear, do we do the same?
thanks for your time to take those photo.
Cool bro, now I can help you! Lets start with the front ones. Before you tighten them or loosen them, pop off the tie rod cup on the end (the part that connects to your steering servo. This way we can see if the steering block binds or not. I usually tighten them up until I start to feel some resistance telling me that they are bottoming out and are getting tight. Then I just back them off a 1/4 of a turn or so. After I back them off I check for any binding by moving them back and forth. If they feel smooth I then check to see if they are backed off too much by grabing the top or bottom of the steering block depending on which pillow ball I am testing and try and move it out and in to feel for excesive play. If they feel a little loose, I tighten them up about 1/16th to 1/8th of a turn. At this point you will be very close. If they start to bind some, well then I just back them off a little bit again. Do this for the top and bottom ball. You are tying to go for the smallest amount of play with free movement of the steering block. You should feel NO resistance or binding at all. It's better to be a hair on the loose side then on the tight side. You NEVER want too tight.

Another thing I need to mention is that when you are putting these Pillow ball nuts in, make sure that the plastic or teflon piece is sitting in the nut flat in the recessed area. You don't want that plastic piece to come out or move on you when you are threading them in to the steering arm or the rear hub. Also, be very careful not to cross thread these "big" nuts because it will make a mess of things. They should go in nice and flat.

Do basically the same thing for the rear hub, however you need to remove the bottom of the shock and disengage the swaybar. Sway bar is optional, but lets you isolate the side you are doing. This also helps to make sure that your suspention is free and not binding at all. All four corners should fall under their own weight with the shocks and sway bars removed. So do the same procedure as the front and check for binding. Now if it doesn't fall under it's own weight, it might be binding somewhere else. Such as the upper or lower hinge pin or even the ball and cup (depending on what rearend you are running).

So if the rear is binding, I will loosen the pillow balls a little more then what is ideal to help isolate where the problem might be. then after fixing the binding by either reaming the hole, or polishing the hinge pins and steel ball...I will go back and fine tune the pillow ball nuts to the correct tolerance by the procedure I explained above for the front. You may want to check your front suspention also while you are working on this. It's just easier to tell if it's the pillow ball nuts being too tight for the front because you can turn the steering hub back and forth to feel for the resistance. Not only up and down like the rear suspension.

Well my friend, I sure hope this helps out and that I didn't confuse the hell out of you. If you run into any issues, let us know!!!! Myself or others will help you with any problems you run into, or find answers to any questions to the best of our knowledge. We have some great people on here. Good luck bro!!!! Keep us posted on how things come along. Later my friend!
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Old 02-04-2007, 10:44 PM   #3786
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Originally Posted by Serpentd
Cool bro, now I can help you! Lets start with the front ones. Before you tighten them or loosen them, pop off the tie rod cup on the end (the part that connects to your steering servo. This way we can see if the steering block binds or not. I usually tighten them up until I start to feel some resistance telling me that they are bottoming out and are getting tight. Then I just back them off a 1/4 of a turn or so. After I back them off I check for any binding by moving them back and forth. If they feel smooth I then check to see if they are backed off too much by grabing the top or bottom of the steering block depending on which pillow ball I am testing and try and move it out and in to feel for excesive play. If they feel a little loose, I tighten them up about 1/16th to 1/8th of a turn. At this point you will be very close. If they start to bind some, well then I just back them off a little bit again. Do this for the top and bottom ball. You are tying to go for the smallest amount of play with free movement of the steering block. You should feel NO resistance or binding at all. It's better to be a hair on the loose side then on the tight side. You NEVER want too tight.

Another thing I need to mention is that when you are putting these Pillow ball nuts in, make sure that the plastic or teflon piece is sitting in the nut flat in the recessed area. You don't want that plastic piece to come out or move on you when you are threading them in to the steering arm or the rear hub. Also, be very careful not to cross thread these "big" nuts because it will make a mess of things. They should go in nice and flat.

Do basically the same thing for the rear hub, however you need to remove the bottom of the shock and disengage the swaybar. Sway bar is optional, but lets you isolate the side you are doing. This also helps to make sure that your suspention is free and not binding at all. All four corners should fall under their own weight with the shocks and sway bars removed. So do the same procedure as the front and check for binding. Now if it doesn't fall under it's own weight, it might be binding somewhere else. Such as the upper or lower hinge pin or even the ball and cup (depending on what rearend you are running).

So if the rear is binding, I will loosen the pillow balls a little more then what is ideal to help isolate where the problem might be. then after fixing the binding by either reaming the hole, or polishing the hinge pins and steel ball...I will go back and fine tune the pillow ball nuts to the correct tolerance by the procedure I explained above for the front. You may want to check your front suspention also while you are working on this. It's just easier to tell if it's the pillow ball nuts being too tight for the front because you can turn the steering hub back and forth to feel for the resistance. Not only up and down like the rear suspension.

Well my friend, I sure hope this helps out and that I didn't confuse the hell out of you. If you run into any issues, let us know!!!! Myself or others will help you with any problems you run into, or find answers to any questions to the best of our knowledge. We have some great people on here. Good luck bro!!!! Keep us posted on how things come along. Later my friend!
heh, thanks bro, now i understand, shall try it later tonite.
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Old 02-04-2007, 11:05 PM   #3787
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Originally Posted by gtrmx
Gansei,

I know this is going to sound crazy to others but just give it a try and please let me know how it works for you:

Front
start with 1 of toe out
stiffest front roll bar
40 wt shock oil with 1.3 mm holes (this will depend greatly on the tracks surface)
2mm caster (right in the middle position)
shocks is lowest position
blue springs
2 or 2.5 camber and adjust according to tire wear
60k or 70k wt oil in the front diff (only to prevent oversteering out of the turn because I am already using 50k in the back diff)
2mm or 3mm of droop

Rear
3.5 toe in!! (I know, I know)
between 3 and 4 of camber
50k wt oil in the diff!! (please try it)
50 wt oil in the shocks with 1.3 mm holes also
purple springs, maybe acquas
original antiroll bar, totally flat (I know you are using the Mugen one, but please remove it for the trial!!)
shocks at the lowest position as well.
do not use the down stops at the back to allow lots of weight transfer to the front.
Keep your roll centers as per the out-of-box settings


You will get some drag on the straigthaway from this setting, but it has given me plenty in-and-out of the turn steering with no wash-offs.

You can keep tire shores the same from front to back or 40 fronts and 42 rears. The only reason for me to use harder rears is that our track is very abbrasive and this helps keep tire wear closer front to back, as does the 2mm split. Tire shore is obviously dependant on track conditions but keep them close from front to back.

While testing, I found that using 50k oils in the diffs front and back at the same time gave me too much steering out of the turns. But, if you have higher traction than I do, then you could even try using that same oil front and back. Since you already have 50k at the front, just change the back diff and start off with the rest of the settings you already have.

I see you are a proficient mechanic, so this experiment should not take you a long time.

Please give me your inputs when you get a chance!
Dude hey! This set up you gave for gensei doesn't seem too far out there. What is unique to me is how you make the front shocks softer then the rear ones. You might of seen on one of my posts that I have yet to run my G4S due to weather. But does the rear end on this car have that much bite (traction) to do such a set up? You mentioned your track being abrasive, how about the rest of it? Is it smooth...meaning no bumps, is the traction high-med or low and then is the layout more tight or more smooth and flowing?

I can see you getting some good rear traction with the 3.5 degrees of toe in and a flat sway bar. But overall, I will have to admit that this is a "unique" set up. But I like to hear or see things like this. A very different approach to what the "norm" usually is. One last question...how do the tires hold up as far as wear goes? Do they seem to have adequite life out of the tires? That might be hard for you to answer if you only run on your abrasive track. I was just curious. Thanks for posting this set up for all to see!

Gensei, let us all know how this works out for you.

Later guys!
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Old 02-04-2007, 11:27 PM   #3788
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Hey guys, I have always wanted a Team Magic TC, but have found parts support to be a major problem. My LHS supports Serpent Mugen and Kyosho, but not TM. I was curious where you guys get your parts from. If possible I would like to order parts online. Thanks!
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Old 02-04-2007, 11:54 PM   #3789
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Originally Posted by rezenclowd3
Hey guys, I have always wanted a Team Magic TC, but have found parts support to be a major problem. My LHS supports Serpent Mugen and Kyosho, but not TM. I was curious where you guys get your parts from. If possible I would like to order parts online. Thanks!
Dude, here you go... http://www.racedayhobbies.com

The owner is Sam, and he is a very cool dude to work with. I didn't notice where you lived, but Raceday is located in Arizona, USA. His shipping time is the best you can expect for online ordering.

I hope you do the right thing and get the G4S. It is very kick ass car with incredible inginuity, state of the art hop ups that are not just for the "bling" factor. They actualy serve a purpose. But even bone stock, right out of the box it screams "PUREBRED RACECAR"!!!! Good Luck bro!!
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Old 02-05-2007, 12:08 AM   #3790
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Originally Posted by rezenclowd3
Hey guys, I have always wanted a Team Magic TC, but have found parts support to be a major problem. My LHS supports Serpent Mugen and Kyosho, but not TM. I was curious where you guys get your parts from. If possible I would like to order parts online. Thanks!

Where are you located ?
If you dont mind buying online then G4ser is your man at racedayhobbies.com.


uniquexme what you could also try is in addition to what serpentd suggested is to put a drop of dry lube on the pivot balls to help with lubrication.The nylon inserts that rub up against the pivot balls also take some time to seat against teh pivot balls so the dry lube just helps keep things smooth.
I also use it on the hinge pins or any place that could have rubbing /friction.
Has helped me alot with my 1/8 buggy too.
I use Finish line Dry lube for bicycles and there are other brands available.
There is some great products available for cyclist that can help in RC.

Serpentd I race 1/8 buggy and have my first race with truggy next weekend.
I run a Casterracing buggy and Truggy as i am SA distributor.
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Old 02-05-2007, 12:48 AM   #3791
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Im in the US, located in Santa Barbara. Thanks for the link! I like the price of this vehicle! I would love to support my LHS as their service is exceptional. (no LHS in Santa Barbara so I order from Elite Hobbies in Covina, about 30min from Revelation) The problem is I have had my eyes set on this vehicle for quite a while, no use regretting a purchase. I had/ have (selling it now) a NTC3 and when I was into nitro TC, I was horrendous. Since then Ive gotten into Stadium Trucks (run a Losi AD2) just to teach me how to drive, and I absolutely love the difficulty level. Anyaway, I hope to be picking up my G4S sometime before summer. (Losi 8 first or this...hmmmm)
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Old 02-05-2007, 12:49 AM   #3792
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Where are you located ?
If you dont mind buying online then G4ser is your man at racedayhobbies.com.


uniquexme what you could also try is in addition to what serpentd suggested is to put a drop of dry lube on the pivot balls to help with lubrication.The nylon inserts that rub up against the pivot balls also take some time to seat against teh pivot balls so the dry lube just helps keep things smooth.
I also use it on the hinge pins or any place that could have rubbing /friction.
Has helped me alot with my 1/8 buggy too.
I use Finish line Dry lube for bicycles and there are other brands available.
There is some great products available for cyclist that can help in RC.

Serpentd I race 1/8 buggy and have my first race with truggy next weekend.
I run a Casterracing buggy and Truggy as i am SA distributor.
yo razzor, may i know whats dry lube? can we use bearing oil instead?? keke or WD40?
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Old 02-05-2007, 12:54 AM   #3793
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Originally Posted by Serpentd

I hope you do the right thing and get the G4S. It is very kick ass car with incredible inginuity, state of the art hop ups that are not just for the "bling" factor. They actualy serve a purpose. But even bone stock, right out of the box it screams "PUREBRED RACECAR"!!!! Good Luck bro!!
^^ With todays kits, I feel that if a vehicle needs hopups, then it is not a worthwhile purchase. Of course, a few may prove to be essential. I only plan on racing once a month as Revelation is 3.5 hours away, and the rest of the time using this as a :gasp: drifter. I just love Nitro TC too much to forget about it and only run offroad.
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Old 02-05-2007, 01:11 AM   #3794
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Dude hey! This set up you gave for gensei doesn't seem too far out there. What is unique to me is how you make the front shocks softer then the rear ones. You might of seen on one of my posts that I have yet to run my G4S due to weather. But does the rear end on this car have that much bite (traction) to do such a set up? You mentioned your track being abrasive, how about the rest of it? Is it smooth...meaning no bumps, is the traction high-med or low and then is the layout more tight or more smooth and flowing?

I can see you getting some good rear traction with the 3.5 degrees of toe in and a flat sway bar. But overall, I will have to admit that this is a "unique" set up. But I like to hear or see things like this. A very different approach to what the "norm" usually is. One last question...how do the tires hold up as far as wear goes? Do they seem to have adequite life out of the tires? That might be hard for you to answer if you only run on your abrasive track. I was just curious. Thanks for posting this set up for all to see!

Gensei, let us all know how this works out for you.

Later guys!

OK, let's try to give out the best answers I can...

Its difficult to say where to start.

Front shock oil. I changed it from 50 to 40 because there was a small bump at the end of the straigthaway. The slightly thinner oil cured the tendency to go airborne into that section. Other than that small bump the track is fairly smooth.

Did not want to go too soft either because there was a high speed sweeper right after. So try to picture going full throttle for the long straightaway, briefly lifting and then heavy throttle again for the sweeper. This is where the rear toe-in helped a lot!!

It is weird really, but the blue spring and heavy front antiroll bar contributed to keeping the car from rolling too much into that sweeper. Harder springs made the car push. Lighter springs caused a little tire wobbling.

The 3.5 rear toe in gave me the confidence of running into the sweeper at high speed. 3 did not feel as good. The 50k wt rear diff does not act as much going into the turns as it does when applying throttle again. This gave me back the on-throttle steering I needed when exiting the tight U-turn positioned at the end of the sweeper.

Three heavy braking zones kept me away from using a one-way, but a locked diff induced push. That mandated using a diff.

During test I could not handle a 50k oil front diff because that induced too much on-power steering. I could not use lighter oil than 50k at the rear because the car pushed out of the hairpins. So why not reducing rear toe?? 3 of toe made the car feel a little uneasy after the straightaway and into the high speed sweeper. If I loose speed into it then the car in front is gone!

One thing drove me to another. So I had to compromise a little turn in with a 70k front diff. It did not take away too much steering into the turns. That wasn't too bad!! Again, less toe was not an option.

The blue springs and position actually came as a result of trying several combinations for the front. Blue springs gave me the best steering. Softer and harder felt less aggresive.

Well, the rear shock oil is different at the back because I just felt I did not need to touch it.

Anti roll bar selection resulted simply from testing the best combination. Hardest at the front, lightest at the rear. Other combinations just did not feel right. Same goes for the rear roll center. I gave off-power steering a priority over on-power, but the hard rear diff gave me back the tight turning out of the hole!

Our track layout is extremely mixed!! Our track times are at the 21.5 sec range. We have a very long straightaway (70 mts) starting off at a full-on-throttle chicane. Then comes the fast sweeper ending into a harpin.
Next is a set of light switchbacks (right-left with about 1/4 throttle) with the second harpin of the track at the end. That U-turn is then followed by another light right turn and a 135 left. Then comes the 30 mts long pit straight into the third hairpin of the track, turning left. That was the heaviest braking zone of all, immediately after changing to 2nd gear. 90 right hander, 10 mts shoot and then the fourth hairpin. This hairpin was extremely critical to have good on power steering because it is followed by a 30 mts long straight. To finish off the circuit comes a 1/2 throttle, wide radius 135 turn. Its radius is about 7 mts. Then comes the trickiest part of all and that is to initiate the quick chicane into the long straightaway, for the next lap.

Track is abrassive. I had to start the 40 min main with all tires at different diameters. Front left 40 shore at 61.5mm, Front right 40 shore with 62.5 mm, rear left 40 shore with 63.5 mm and new-out-of-the box 42 shore rear right tire. All nitro shoes tires with serpent rim. Diameters all ended up within 1 mm, but with overdrive. Fronts finish larger than rears, that is, even over the natural split the ED transmission requires. When the tires are at this point, the car has a ride height of about 5mm front and rear. I worry about final ride height rather than initial, which probably yields a tall standing car at the start of the race. I prefer that, though, to loosing time going wide if the chassis bottoms out during the last minutes.

Grip is tipically very low as the track gets dusty easily. Only during big races does the race line clean up a bit to mid-bite condition.

So we have a long straight, four hairpins, three heavy braking zones, two mild switchbacks, one fast chicane, one fast sweeper, one half-throttle wide key-hole and a great fun track!

Just in case you are curious, I finished 2nd at only 5 secs behind the leader. We lapped the rest of the field in a 106 lap race. I hit the fast speed chicane once and was lucky to have the car fall out the track into the grass on all four. The engine did not stall. Just had enough time to let off the throttle a bit before the incident.
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Old 02-05-2007, 01:19 AM   #3795
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rezenclowd3
^^ With todays kits, I feel that if a vehicle needs hopups, then it is not a worthwhile purchase. Of course, a few may prove to be essential. I only plan on racing once a month as Revelation is 3.5 hours away, and the rest of the time using this as a :gasp: drifter. I just love Nitro TC too much to forget about it and only run offroad.
I hear ya bro. All I can say is you won't be disapointed with this car. If I was you, I would probably just leave the thing stock, right out of the box. Some of the upgrades available are for the VERY serious racer that's trying to find every little edge to shave that 1/10 of a second of each lap. You won't need any of that stuff IMO.

I love offroad too! We just don't have enough time to run everything unfortunately. I have a Losi AD2 also. Very sweet ride! But so is both 1/8th scale onroad and buggy! I just can't get enough. Good luck with your decision making there. It's always tough to figure out what car to get next. Later bro!
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