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Old 08-20-2005, 05:26 PM   #1
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Default Set-up Board Frustration

I have a Hudy All In One Set-up system and for the life of me I cannot get my car set-up properly - I must be illiterate.

I started off with the downstop settings as recommended in the Set Up booklet that is included with the kit. I had everything going well and then it came to the Track Width and Symmetry section. Track was is easy, but not when the car is offset from centerline. So for a few hours I have been doing trial and error runs in my head and on my car trying to learn the system with no luck. Is track supposed to be set-up with everything centered at ZERO? (Camber and Toe)? I had the centerline and track set up perfectly, but would have a -5 camber on the left and -2 camber on the right or vice versa.

I tried to help myself by setting the upper links in the rear end identical, took them off, and eyeballed them to the best of measurement on a metric ruler. Still no luck.

My main problem is symmetry.

Last edited by performula; 08-20-2005 at 05:36 PM.
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Old 08-20-2005, 05:33 PM   #2
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See the book reads that you should take steps at a time which I have. The track width and symmetry section reads to set the track as if the readings do not matter. Now, if I center the car up, the car being symmetrical (just track) on both sides, when I get to the later steps of Camber and Toe, if they are not identical (my -5 and -2 camber angles) each side from the start...the whole geometry of the front or rear will be thrown off once I come back to adjust them, right?
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Old 08-20-2005, 06:09 PM   #3
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first off start with track width as measured at the bottom of the tires with the car on the board. ensure that you measure the distance of the pillow ball showing between the lower arm and the steering upright. make sure both sides are equal- it's best to measure with calipers. you can get close by ensuring the same # of threads are showing on each lower pillow ball.

once the track width is set, then set the camber and toe.

when you set the camber, you should turn each pillow ball the same amount in opposite directions- ie.... if you need to make the camber more negative, start by turning in the top pillow ball 1/2 turn and the lower pillow ball out 1/2 turn.

just do the same thing for the rear except:

set both lower pillow balls to the same measurement between the lower arm and rear upright. you adjust the upper turnbuckle for the final camber adjustment. when you set the rear toe, make sure you turn the pillow balls as described above- in opposite directions, or you will mess up the camber you just set.

I always set width, camber, toe in that order.

if you ever want to change the track width, you need to adjust everything else again.
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Old 08-20-2005, 09:32 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdelong
first off start with track width as measured at the bottom of the tires with the car on the board. ensure that you measure the distance of the pillow ball showing between the lower arm and the steering upright. make sure both sides are equal- it's best to measure with calipers. you can get close by ensuring the same # of threads are showing on each lower pillow ball.

once the track width is set, then set the camber and toe.

when you set the camber, you should turn each pillow ball the same amount in opposite directions- ie.... if you need to make the camber more negative, start by turning in the top pillow ball 1/2 turn and the lower pillow ball out 1/2 turn.

just do the same thing for the rear except:

set both lower pillow balls to the same measurement between the lower arm and rear upright. you adjust the upper turnbuckle for the final camber adjustment. when you set the rear toe, make sure you turn the pillow balls as described above- in opposite directions, or you will mess up the camber you just set.

I always set width, camber, toe in that order.

if you ever want to change the track width, you need to adjust everything else again.
I did what you recommended, but since I do not have a caliper, I used the set-up decal. I removed the shocks and sway bars and used the printed measurments to at least get each side even and everything symmetrical. Then I fine tuned it on the tweak board (width adjustment), using your method of if I take away from one side I need to give to the other (basic math lol) and everything worked like you said. The threads on the pillowballs are similar; however, not identical (half a thread more, etc). I did the best I could and everything else is aligned fine. Thank you.

Now since the pillow balls are not exact on each side, what will this cause? If a person looked very closely they could see a *slight* offset. The track and chassis is centered on both sides, I only see this offset as an impact on adjustability (one side can be screwed a tad further and vice versa), but the track is the same.
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Old 08-21-2005, 08:24 AM   #5
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Hi

I got the Hudy All in one this month and I was facing similar problems till i used the similar method of counting the # of threads, which was my basic setup technique when i didnt have a board !! lol !! but hey this board really makes a difference.. 100%.

My question is with the steering arm that we require to set when adjusting front toe out. Here the problem is identical to that of PERFORMULA - I have set the toe out already to 1' out but spacing between these two arms are not similar its more like a pos - neg - on either side is this normal ? coz the toe out came out 1' each with this ?

I feel there is something i did wrong ? hope someone can help mee ?
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Old 08-21-2005, 08:30 AM   #6
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1/2- 1 thread difference is nothing to worry about. These parts are mass produced and have manufacturing tolerances that could cause the difference. Someday you'll break an arm or upright and you'll notice it will be a little different after setting it up again.
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Old 08-21-2005, 08:38 AM   #7
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I just got my integy setup station 2 pro. Its kinda weird at first but youll get the hang of it. I believe Ive gotten everything setup with my car. It does indeed help but if your good you can probably live without one.

All I had before was an rpm camber gauge....which ill admit on regular tires is innacurate. Im sure with a setup wheel its good...but its slow to go back and forth and keep resetting the camber gauge to see where your at , rather than dial it in and watch the change.

As for width or the track of the car. Thats where I come down with trouble. What do you go by for the track. The maximum angle of the wheel or the point directly under the hub or what? Also the integy setup station comes with ok directions and some basic setup info.

I like that they say go with not much camber so the tires will wear flat. Im kinda a believer in this technique. Then set the rear at -3 toe , front 0 toe. With negative 1 camber all around for starters. Then to get more steering, increase front toe. To get more steering response increase rear camber.

Another tip for the r40 users. Use the supplied clips to verify what type of gaps you have between your screws. This way you can easily make everything equal from side to side and dont have to eyeball threads. Then go from there. I used this on my rear toe before the setup station. Just verified it was exactly -3.0 on both sides....Id say the clips are your best bet to making things perfect. Then of course remove them and adjust accordingly.
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Old 08-21-2005, 08:57 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uaerc
Hi

I got the Hudy All in one this month and I was facing similar problems till i used the similar method of counting the # of threads, which was my basic setup technique when i didnt have a board !! lol !! but hey this board really makes a difference.. 100%.

My question is with the steering arm that we require to set when adjusting front toe out. Here the problem is identical to that of PERFORMULA - I have set the toe out already to 1' out but spacing between these two arms are not similar its more like a pos - neg - on either side is this normal ? coz the toe out came out 1' each with this ?

I feel there is something i did wrong ? hope someone can help mee ?
Like cdelong mentioned, have you wrecked your car? If you think about it, when the car wrecks and breaks a knuckle, the pivot balls must get smashed into their locations a tad making their locations look different, but the setting is identical.

But if they are out of whack, do as I did and remove the shocks and sway bar -using the board decal as an eyeball tool, then fine tune it on the tweak board making the chassis centered and setting the track on each side. Wrecks and manufacturing (not exact) keep the car from being identical.
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Old 08-21-2005, 09:38 AM   #9
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for track width you should go by the bottom of the tires- since we all run negative camber this is the widest point on the car. this is especially important when considering tech inspection. when you roll a 200mm car though the blocks it must not touch on the sides of the wheels.

One more time on the the order of set-up. set the width first. measure the pillow balls on the bottom of each side in the front to be the same- lets just say 4mm of thread showing. then adjust the front camber by ONLY adjusting the top pillow ball. if you measure the threads on the top of one side, it should be close to the other side- only close- not exact. now set front toe. this will not affect anything else because you are only adjusting the turnbuckles.

now the rear..... start to set the width by measuring the pillow ball threads showing. set each of the bottom pillow balls to 4mm showing and see where the width is. adjust from there- in or out. now set camber by adjusting the upper turnbuckle (or pillow ball on some cars). lastly set the rear toe by using the opposite method of turning one pillow ball in the opposite direction of the other- or you will pooch the camber you just set.
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Old 08-21-2005, 02:55 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by performula
Like cdelong mentioned, have you wrecked your car? If you think about it, when the car wrecks and breaks a knuckle, the pivot balls must get smashed into their locations a tad making their locations look different, but the setting is identical.

But if they are out of whack, do as I did and remove the shocks and sway bar -using the board decal as an eyeball tool, then fine tune it on the tweak board making the chassis centered and setting the track on each side. Wrecks and manufacturing (not exact) keep the car from being identical.
Agreed ! I did whack my car ! yeah but before setting up the car i did put in the titanium pivot balls.....later is when i setup the car.

Thanks for that hint...I wanted to ask how to use the nos on the decal ! or whats the point for the decal - how to use it etc........ it acts as caliper ! does it ?!.. sorry for being silly.

But the book doesnt mention this and no one here in my country has the All in one - atleast as far as i know. To help me out!
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Old 08-21-2005, 04:30 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdelong
for track width you should go by the bottom of the tires- since we all run negative camber this is the widest point on the car. this is especially important when considering tech inspection. when you roll a 200mm car though the blocks it must not touch on the sides of the wheels.

One more time on the the order of set-up. set the width first. measure the pillow balls on the bottom of each side in the front to be the same- lets just say 4mm of thread showing. then adjust the front camber by ONLY adjusting the top pillow ball. if you measure the threads on the top of one side, it should be close to the other side- only close- not exact. now set front toe. this will not affect anything else because you are only adjusting the turnbuckles.

now the rear..... start to set the width by measuring the pillow ball threads showing. set each of the bottom pillow balls to 4mm showing and see where the width is. adjust from there- in or out. now set camber by adjusting the upper turnbuckle (or pillow ball on some cars). lastly set the rear toe by using the opposite method of turning one pillow ball in the opposite direction of the other- or you will pooch the camber you just set.
It would be the widest point if there wasnt any toe. But with toe, youll either have the front and rear of the tire that sticks out the most and not the middle. At least thats what it looks like to me.

Yeah the negative will make the bottom portion wider, but exactly which point will they measure. Im guessing from what you said as it will be slide through 200mm width blocks. So that leaves me to believe the widest point on the tire equates the track. So lets say I dial in +2 toe on each side of the front, would this make it so I would need to set the car to 196 width in the front overall and the +2 on the sides equates for the rest of the wider stance to create the 200mm track?

Last edited by Artificial-I; 08-21-2005 at 04:40 PM.
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Old 08-21-2005, 05:33 PM   #12
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2 degrees toe does not = 2mm for each side. It is probably 1mm total at most, but yes you are correct on the toe affecting track width at the widest point. it's something you need to take into account when setting up the initial width. start 1-2mm narrower than the max allowed and the toe will most likely NOT get you over 200mm.
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Old 08-21-2005, 10:22 PM   #13
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If hinge pins or pivot balls are bent all bets are off and measurements get out of whack quickly on a Hudy. Don't forget that all must be done with new true wheels as well. That said, I own 3 Hudy setups (1/10, 235, 1/8) and all of them have issues. These gauges are not accurate, period. Sedan was the worst and I can prove it. Set your car up and then check it against a simple plastic camber gauge like the RPM and you will see discrepancies. It would be fine if it was off by a fixed amount but the measurements are not even close side vs. side. For that reason, I only use the Hudy gauges to set toe and steering throw/balance and I use a plastic gauge for camber. Face it, the camber gauge is accurate and is identical from side to side always.

BTW on sedan, I also have an Integy gauge and it is evenly biased side vs. side and much more accurate.

I have spent zillions of hours tweaking and comparing all of the various forms of measurements and the combo of using the plastic gauge and the Hudy together works really well.

Don't forget that many titanium pivot balls are weaker than their steel counterparts. I have replaced the front ones with steel in most of my cars.
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Old 08-22-2005, 05:17 AM   #14
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hey fraz....did you have the old style HUDY or the new ball bearing one..
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Old 08-22-2005, 07:03 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fraz
That said, I own 3 Hudy setups (1/10, 235, 1/8) and all of them have issues. These gauges are not accurate, period. Sedan was the worst and I can prove it. Set your car up and then check it against a simple plastic camber gauge like the RPM and you will see discrepancies. It would be fine if it was off by a fixed amount but the measurements are not even close side vs. side. For that reason, I only use the Hudy gauges to set toe and steering throw/balance and I use a plastic gauge for camber. Face it, the camber gauge is accurate and is identical from side to side always.

BTW on sedan, I also have an Integy gauge and it is evenly biased side vs. side and much more accurate.

I have spent zillions of hours tweaking and comparing all of the various forms of measurements and the combo of using the plastic gauge and the Hudy together works really well.
I couldn't agree more about the camber. I have given up on setting camber with the set-up station. I frequently am off by 1-2 degrees of camber when comparing the station settings vs. the plastic RPM camber gauge.

If I set the car to 3 degrees camber with the RPM gauge, the station reads like 4- 4.5 degrees.

I only use the set-up station for toe, and the RPM gauge for camber.
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