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Old 11-01-2013, 08:11 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by azeroth View Post
OK But why? they already produce a flat chassis car it only mandates that kick has to remain if a conversion and kick up is the angle of attack of the hinge pin like anti squat on the rear and can be in the form of hinge pin mounts and the rules do not state a min or maximum kick up just saying
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Really??

ROAR should man up and adopt or at lesst work with what has already been established. Not reinvent the wheel.

ROAR is suppose to work for us not the other way around.

The best set of rules for GT8 OPEN/PRO that has been tried and tested and has International interest are Doug McNally rules he established for the Pan American 1/8 GT Race in Homestead Florida.

IGT8F OPEN-PRO CLASS RULES are an exact duplicate of these set of rules. Just short version.

Now most of you dont agree with IGT8F "SPEC" CLASS RULES and that is perfectly fine. This class is not designed or intended for the vast majority currently racing GT.
Its True purpose is to revive all those neglected (Long) chassis cars into a class of its own.

To me the new ROAR RULES, looks like a "SPEC" CLASS that would be very difficult to tech.
If you only read and understand my post very carefully, I'm refering that for the next new GT8 they release should have the front end kick and add to my previous post these manufacturers should also offer a conversion to meet the ROAR spec to race these GT8 cars. I don't know how hard to understand as everything have a simple fix for this.
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Old 11-01-2013, 09:04 PM   #62
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i am asking why should the next one they release have kickup? and yes Jlock the blue chassis and later dark gunmetal
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:59 PM   #63
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Why should it matter whether the chassis has front kick-up or not? Manufacturers are going to produce the product configuration that is most cost effective.
The fact that there are cars available with different wheel bases is great.

I do have a technical question though, what adjustable clutch are most GT racers using?
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Old 11-01-2013, 11:54 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by FREELANCE_RCer View Post
If you only read and understand my post very carefully, I'm refering that for the next new GT8 they release should have the front end kick and add to my previous post these manufacturers should also offer a conversion to meet the ROAR spec to race these GT8 cars. I don't know how hard to understand as everything have a simple fix for this.
Fair solutions, but imo to save the consumer the headaches I would rather grandfather the DM1 & TC in. I doubt a conversion price would be cost effective.

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Why should it matter whether the chassis has front kick-up or not? Manufacturers are going to product the product configuration that is most cost effective.
The fact that there are cars available with different wheel bases is great.

I do have a technical question though, what adjustable clutch are most GT racers using?
I believe ROAR is looking at it from the perspective of this class is solely made from 1/8 offroad buggy's, hence the term buggy-based onroad.

Buggy's that I know of all have approximately 10 degree's built in the kick up and you the racer should figure out how to optimize your GT8 with that caster equalizer for everyone.

Also as you mentioned this does makes it cost-effective for the manufacturer just use the same chassis used for its offroad twin with a few extra holes and bam a GT8.

A flat chassis is specifically made for onroad and I believe ROARS goal was to "try" and sway offroad racers to come over, and since 1/8 buggy is the most common class innovative people would be able to make the switch since they are already comfortable with the buggy.

This is what I personally think their thoughts are.... At least this is how the rule makes any sense to me.

Here is the ROAR rule

2.Stock and factory optional chassis are permitted, but it must retain all the characteristics of the standard off-road chassis on which it’s based. Chassis must be identical to their off-road counterparts in all dimensions except where it’s necessary to convert the chassis for on-road use. Carbon fiber chassis are not permitted.

Again this is what I believe their thinking is but I could be wrong.

I personally think we should grandfather in what's out as of Today and be done with it.

As to the clutch question here in the East coast it looks like many are using the BUKU system. I personally use a 4 shoe system that's non adjustable except to change the springs.


I Cant wait for the ROAR Onroad Nitro Nationals with GT8 included

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Old 11-02-2013, 07:19 AM   #65
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Fair solutions, but imo to save the consumer the headaches I would rather grandfather the DM1 & TC in. I doubt a conversion price would be cost effective.



I believe ROAR is looking at it from the perspective of this class is solely made from 1/8 offroad buggy's, hence the term buggy-based onroad.

Buggy's that I know of all have approximately 10 degree's built in the kick up and you the racer should figure out how to optimize your GT8 with that caster equalizer for everyone.

Also as you mentioned this does makes it cost-effective for the manufacturer just use the same chassis used for its offroad twin with a few extra holes and bam a GT8.

A flat chassis is specifically made for onroad and I believe ROARS goal was to "try" and sway offroad racers to come over, and since 1/8 buggy is the most common class innovative people would be able to make the switch since they are already comfortable with the buggy.

This is what I personally think their thoughts are.... At least this is how the rule makes any sense to me.

Here is the ROAR rule

2.Stock and factory optional chassis are permitted, but it must retain all the characteristics of the standard off-road chassis on which itís based. Chassis must be identical to their off-road counterparts in all dimensions except where itís necessary to convert the chassis for on-road use. Carbon fiber chassis are not permitted.

Again this is what I believe their thinking is but I could be wrong.

I personally think we should grandfather in what's out as of Today and be done with it.

As to the clutch question here in the East coast it looks like many are using the BUKU system. I personally use a 4 shoe system that's non adjustable except to change the springs.


I Cant wait for the ROAR Onroad Nitro Nationals with GT8 included

.
Well stated and I agree. So Fort Meyers Florida next November for the first ROAR national championship.
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Old 11-02-2013, 09:48 AM   #66
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To me the whole discussion about the rules here seems to be more than weird.

Calling the rules GT8 and asking for buggy and truggy based conversions with a front kickup is contradictionarry by itself.

Asking for licensed scale boddies must be called mission impossible upfront.

The buggy derived wheelbase of mostly 325 mm does not fit any scale requrenment. Even 360 mm ist too short to fit most bodies scale dimensions when you keep the overall with of the car at 305 mm.

To my best guess no car manufacturer will make an attempt to sign off a license product loocking toyisch when sqeeced to those dimensions.

What about changing the caster blocks to make a buggy/truggy based car drivable. Will the ROAR rulebook allow that.

Pandoras box was something quite predicticable compared with the mess showing up here.

Why the hack any other manufacturer should be willing to enter that swamp.


If someboady wants to initiate and grow something what is a real GT8 class the first thing to do is make clean new start.

Now more conversions of xyz and similar bullshit driving the rule setting.
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Old 11-02-2013, 10:51 AM   #67
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Default chassis rule interpretation

The chassis kickup rule is open for interpretation to say the least.

Re-reading the pt 3. first states "Any 1/8 scale buggy or Truggy based shaft driven nitro powered vehicle." (notice the 'dot' at the end..)
And then in a separate second statement "( off-road conversion is OK) with front kick up."
So at this point, as long as the chassis is "1/8 buggy or truggy based" it's fine. Question is now to interpret this "buggy/truggy based" requirement. To me, if it allows to use common parts (arms, driveshafts, bulkheads, diff, etc..) than another 1/8 offroad product, it's "1/8 buggy or truggy based". (So Ofna's and Team C's are fine)
And my interpretation of the the second part is that it relates only to "home made" off road conversion - and in that case, no chassis mod, specifically
- the front kick up as re-stated in sub point 1 re: kickup "1.Chassis with Kick up cannot be altered to change original manufacturers design."
- the dimensions "2.Stock and factory optional chassis are permitted, but it must retain all the characteristics of the standard off-road chassis on which itís based. Chassis must be identical to their off-road counterparts in all dimensions except where itís necessary to convert the chassis for on-road use. Carbon fiber chassis are not permitted.

Now if ROAR removes that 'dot',making the first statement to read essentially "Any 1/8 scale buggy or Truggy based shaft driven nitro powered vehicle with front kick up." then we indeed have a problem with a lot of the cars currently out there..
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Old 11-02-2013, 11:05 AM   #68
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The chassis kickup rule is open for interpretation to say the least.

Re-reading the pt 3. first states "Any 1/8 scale buggy or Truggy based shaft driven nitro powered vehicle." (notice the 'dot' at the end..)
And then in a separate second statement "( off-road conversion is OK) with front kick up."
So at this point, as long as the chassis is "1/8 buggy or truggy based" it's fine. Question is now to interpret this "buggy/truggy based" requirement. To me, if it allows to use common parts (arms, driveshafts, bulkheads, diff, etc..) than another 1/8 offroad product, it's "1/8 buggy or truggy based". (So Ofna's and Team C's are fine)
And my interpretation of the the second part is that it relates only to "home made" off road conversion - and in that case, no chassis mod, specifically
- the front kick up as re-stated in sub point 1 re: kickup "1.Chassis with Kick up cannot be altered to change original manufacturers design."
- the dimensions "2.Stock and factory optional chassis are permitted, but it must retain all the characteristics of the standard off-road chassis on which itís based. Chassis must be identical to their off-road counterparts in all dimensions except where itís necessary to convert the chassis for on-road use. Carbon fiber chassis are not permitted.

Now if ROAR removes that 'dot',making the first statement to read essentially "Any 1/8 scale buggy or Truggy based shaft driven nitro powered vehicle with front kick up." then we indeed have a problem with a lot of the cars currently out there..
Thats trying to split hairs on a baldys head.

Not really curing the problem.
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Old 11-02-2013, 04:47 PM   #69
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You guys are getting worried about noting ..

Here is what you do if you have one of these cars outside the rules

You need a friend to help you out with this

When the roar guy walks up to you he will ask you if your car is legal (you must say yes)
While this is going on you have a friend walk past with a tmax or some monster truck.. The roar guy will panic and chase him down .. You are free to race the gt car that you bought to race in the gt class
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Old 11-03-2013, 12:02 AM   #70
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I like the rules just because to me they are simple. I have many buggy engines here so Im set on thet part and for the onroad specific engines I have 1/8 pan car so no waste. The flat chassis part depends completely on the "dot". I'm sure that ROAR will have no problem including any of the current flat chassis designs as a grandfather rule can be done. The thing that I like the most about these rules is that manufacturers that were looking at the GT class can now have a few guidelines from an official organization. From what I;ve seen in recent years in buggy engines the restrictors are getting smaller and smaller to get more run time so the engines do tune well with 6mm.
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Old 11-03-2013, 10:15 AM   #71
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I like the rules just because to me they are simple. I have many buggy engines here so Im set on thet part and for the onroad specific engines I have 1/8 pan car so no waste. The flat chassis part depends completely on the "dot". I'm sure that ROAR will have no problem including any of the current flat chassis designs as a grandfather rule can be done. The thing that I like the most about these rules is that manufacturers that were looking at the GT class can now have a few guidelines from an official organization. From what I;ve seen in recent years in buggy engines the restrictors are getting smaller and smaller to get more run time so the engines do tune well with 6mm.
Simple?? .... are you kidding??
You can't get any simpler then the IGT8F rules.

they are the official organization for GT. There really isn't/ wasn't any need for ROAR to bring rules out for this class. With IGT8F we already have all we need.

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Old 11-03-2013, 12:43 PM   #72
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Does IGT8F offer insurance coverage similar or better than ROAR ??
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Old 11-03-2013, 01:42 PM   #73
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What's the deal with the kickup? With some work, you can make new suspension pickup points to make the lower arms flat to the ground, removing the kickup effect completely.

Either that or a 0 degree caster block or even a negative one.

Iti is not just the caster but more so the anti dive etc that makes the handling of the 'flat' chassis different from the 'kickup' cars.
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Old 11-03-2013, 05:39 PM   #74
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Does IGT8F offer insurance coverage similar or better than ROAR ??
You don't have to pay to be part of IGT8F either.

It's unfortunate that all ROAR has become is an over priced insurance agent for us.

If it's insurance you need .... there are many companies offering good deals for you.
Just open the yellow pages....

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Old 11-03-2013, 10:40 PM   #75
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Does IGT8F offer insurance coverage similar or better than ROAR ??
Sorry IGT8F in not in the Insurance selling business.

We are in the promoting and making more races business. We are in the building a new way of how business is done between manufacturers, dealers and consumers business. We are in the improving the RC industry business.

I can tell you as a previous track owner that was not a ROAR sanctioned tracked like many others in this country. A track/shop owner just to do business has to carry a $1,000,000 minimum commercial liability insurance. This is more then enough to cover your insurance needs for any type of incident that may occur.

ROAR is a add-on insurance to your existing commercial insurance policy, for only ROAR members at ROAR ONLY or OFFICIAL submitted events at its $35 a year per track and $25-$30 per member price.

This is directly off ROARs website, just so we all understand.

Published and posted in 2006.....

How ROAR Insurance Works
The ROAR insurance program is one of the most valuable aspects of ROAR membership The insurance policies are complex but I would like to try to summarize the key parts of the insurance program in layman's terms, particularly for the new members, as part of my annual column on this subject. ROAR members are covered by two ROAR insurance policies, liability and bodily injury, while participating in a ROAR sanctioned race or a practice for such a race. The club/track is an additional insured on the member policy.
Liability: This policy protects members from claims resulting from damage caused by their R/C car to spectators and others. The insurance company has the right and duty to defend the insured (member) against any suit seeking damages because of bodily injury or property damage, and pay those sums the insured becomes legally obligated to pay up to the $ 1 Million policy limit. This applies to ROAR sanctioned races and practices and basically applies to accidents directly related to the operation of an R/C car. Damage caused by a wind blown pit umbrella or shade tent isn't covered. Often that kind of coverage is provided by your homeowners policy. In my opinion, the greatest value here is the protection from lawyers and lawsuits.
(Insurance company has the duty to defend...). You've got to have a real bummer of an accident to cause $1 Million in damage. In terms of cost, this liability coverage currently represents about $4.80 of your annual membership fee. The liability cost per member has increased compared to a few years ago, primarily because the insurance industry is experiencing more lawsuits and larger damage awards for liability claims in general.
Bodily Injury: I like to think of this as a "no-fault" injury policy because it pays medical expenses if you hurt yourself in a ROAR sanctioned race (trip over your own feet turn-marshalling) up to $10,000. Most member's accidents are minor and fall within the current $200 deductible for each claim, however, a broken leg with resulting hospital and doctor bills adds up real fast with today's high medical costs. In terms of cost, the bodily injury coverage currently represents $1.40 of your annual membership fee. During the last few years, the insurance company has paid claims including one for nearly $6000 to cover medical costs for a member’s broken arm. It also rejected one claim for nearly $1000 identified by the Emergency Room physician as a skateboarding injury, which obviously was not RC related. One aspect of both policies of insurance is that they are secondary to any coverage you may have that is already obligated to pay the covered expenses. In other words, you would not be able to receive payment twice for the same expense.
A ROAR sanctioned race is one run by a ROAR Club or Track with an approved sanction from ROAR. Clubs are automatically issued a certificate of insurance naming them as an additional insured under the member policy. If they use someone else's property for a race, the insurance company will add that party, (landlord, city park, shopping center) as an additional insured for a nominal fee (currently $67.11 including insurance tax). These additional insured parties have the same coverage as the member. Again, remember the main value here is the insurance company's "duty to defend" and the lawyers tendency to sue anyone even remotely connected with the event looking for deep pockets. The key element to all of this, particularly for the Clubs, is that the insurance coverage is related to the individual member insurance, and if the person having an accident is not a ROAR member the insurance company doesn’t recognizehim. The track’s coverage depends upon having all racers be ROAR members. Remember to let the race director or track owner know of any accident, and write down his name and number, so the insurance company can verify the details of any claim submitted.
The $6.20 of your membership fee devoted to the insurance program is an excellent value particularly in this day and age when there are so many lawsuits. We want to make sure that all racers at our events are protected by the insurance coverage, so make sure that you are participating in a ROAR sanctioned race run by a ROAR Club (listed here in Rev-Up under your Region report), and that everyone participating in your club events is a ROAR member. It's cheap insurance.

IGT8F has no interest in selling or providing insurance "cheap or otherwise", we are racers creating races to have some organized Fun.

Also last time I checked Insurance companies of any kind are not very keen on paying out premiums for any kind of incident.
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