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Old 06-22-2005, 01:40 PM   #15391
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBBIE C
To much toe can sometimes not be good because you scrub speed and it makes your rear tires wear fast, think about it you have one force working against another when your tires are cocked in to muck you are working against the grain of the tire and the surface pavement, this is what's called scrubbing speed it also works like a sander which causes access tire wear.
0 to 1.5 should more than enough the only time you want to run 2 to 3 degrees of toe is on a extremely high bite track, more toe in will cause the car to push more a keep your car from traction rolling.
When looking for more traction in the rear focus more on the camber and shock position, try giving the car more camber and laying the rear shocks down, you also can play with the camber gain, high the camber gain the more side bite.
This is what I do to prepare my car, just my opions, I'm always open to learn more so if something seem's out of place here please feal free to correct me.
Thanks Robbie, ..... I need that for Futaba Cup 2005 ( this weekend )

I'm going to implement the below and I accept anyone inputs or corrections.

My objective :
I like my car to have a little bit understeer, a little bit responsive ( I prefer easy to drive than being agreesive ) and most importanly the car should feel sticky to the road. Currently the car is understeer big time off power and doesn't feel sticky under acceleration.

Here is my current setup: ( using HUDY )
Could anyone with Mugen expertise to check my current setup ? or help me to achieve my objective?

Front Suspension Mount : #2 ( count from bottom position )
Front Suspension : XRAY purple 1.8 ( thicker than dark blue mugen )
Front Damping : 2 holes piston with 50w
Front toe in : 0
Front camber : -3
Front One Way
Front Droop : 0
Front Ride Height : 5mm
Front Tires : Kawahara 37
Front Stabilisers : None

Rear Suspension Mount : #2 ( count from bottom position )
Front Suspension : XRAY light blue 1.6 ( thinner than dark blue mugen )
Rear Damping : 2 holes piston with 50w
Rear toe in : 3
Rear Camber : -2.5 ( plus 1.5mm spacer )
Gear Diff with 10,000
Rear Droop : 4
Rear Ride Height : 5mm
Rear Tires : Kawahara 35
Rear Stabiliser : None

The track is brand new asphalt, Smooth Surface, Medium bites ( good traction but not that good ), Sweepers and S turns.

Little bit of rain ( wet condition ) should be expected.

Many many thanks for helping me.
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Old 06-22-2005, 01:49 PM   #15392
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Why do you not use sway bars? (Unless it's because of the wet track)Why are you using XRAY Springs instead of Mugen? Wouldn't those Xray springs be too soft?

If the track is slick(from being wet) it will prolly give you those characteristics. It feels like it's pushing because it's actually just sliding forward. and then when you give it gas, there isn't enough traction to put the power down. At least, that's what happens at my track when it's slick.

If the track is wet, Rubber tires may be the answer. I've never raced in the wet, but the people that do seem to have the best luck with rubber tires.

Last edited by gonzoY5; 06-22-2005 at 02:12 PM.
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Old 06-22-2005, 02:06 PM   #15393
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guys, will the mugen pinion removal tool work with the stock pinions and prospec pinions? got tired of using special pliers and force the clutch bell even with a rag!
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Old 06-22-2005, 02:12 PM   #15394
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seisick
guys, will the mugen pinion removal tool work with the stock pinions and prospec pinions? got tired of using special pliers and force the clutch bell even with a rag!
Yeah it will. I've used it for both. I held out as long as I could without getting it. And once I got it I was kicking myself for not getting it sooner. It's not cheap but it's worth it.

Now i just hope it will work with the "MTX4" Speaking of which, does anyone know when it's coming out? HA! JUST KIDDING!!
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Old 06-22-2005, 02:15 PM   #15395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzoY5
Yeah it will. I've used it for both. I held out as long as I could without getting it. And once I got it I was kicking myself for not getting it sooner. It's not cheap but it's worth it.

Now i just hope it will work with the "MTX4" Speaking of which, does anyone know when it's coming out? HA! JUST KIDDING!!
r collins,
does the clutch bell tool to take the pinion gears off for the mtx-3 work for the mrx-4. thanks.
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Old 06-22-2005, 03:51 PM   #15396
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Joemugen,
I'm not Robbie but I can tell you the tool does work for both.
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Old 06-22-2005, 04:17 PM   #15397
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It also works for most enbells
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Old 06-22-2005, 04:20 PM   #15398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asw7576
Thanks Robbie, ..... I need that for Futaba Cup 2005 ( this weekend )

I'm going to implement the below and I accept anyone inputs or corrections.

My objective :
I like my car to have a little bit understeer, a little bit responsive ( I prefer easy to drive than being agreesive ) and most importanly the car should feel sticky to the road. Currently the car is understeer big time off power and doesn't feel sticky under acceleration.

Here is my current setup: ( using HUDY )
Could anyone with Mugen expertise to check my current setup ? or help me to achieve my objective?

Front Suspension Mount : #2 ( count from bottom position )
Front Suspension : XRAY purple 1.8 ( thicker than dark blue mugen )
Front Damping : 2 holes piston with 50w
Front toe in : 0
Front camber : -3
Front One Way
Front Droop : 0
Front Ride Height : 5mm
Front Tires : Kawahara 37
Front Stabilisers : None

Rear Suspension Mount : #2 ( count from bottom position )
Front Suspension : XRAY light blue 1.6 ( thinner than dark blue mugen )
Rear Damping : 2 holes piston with 50w
Rear toe in : 3
Rear Camber : -2.5 ( plus 1.5mm spacer )
Gear Diff with 10,000
Rear Droop : 4
Rear Ride Height : 5mm
Rear Tires : Kawahara 35
Rear Stabiliser : None

The track is brand new asphalt, Smooth Surface, Medium bites ( good traction but not that good ), Sweepers and S turns.

Little bit of rain ( wet condition ) should be expected.

Many many thanks for helping me.
Is this a parking lot track or permanent track?
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Old 06-22-2005, 05:21 PM   #15399
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie Corrado
Joemugen,
I'm not Robbie but I can tell you the tool does work for both.
thanks.
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Old 06-23-2005, 03:23 AM   #15400
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It's permanent track.

2 straight : 1 long, 1 medium
2 sweeper : 1 medium, 1 long
2 S turns : 1 medium radii S, 1 big radii S

Asphalt tracks, smooth, medium to high grip traction.

Normally people are using 37 front, 35 rear.
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Old 06-23-2005, 07:21 AM   #15401
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Here's what I'd do:

for the front- you need more steering off power (ie- more weight to transfer forward)

1). I'd put the Mugen blue springs back in with 600 Mugen oil all around
2). Lay the shocks down one more hole in the front
3). Put the front sway bar back on ~20 angle (will help the rear on power)
4). Get rid of all that front camber maybe -1.5/- 2.0 degrees.
5) Lower the front ride height to 4- 4.5mm

What's your front caster setting? Go to 2mm in front if you do not have that now.

for the rear- you need more on power traction

1). what suspension block are you using in the rear- A,B,C?

2). the front sway bar may get you what you want. sway bars alter traction at the opposite end of the car from where you make the adjustment.

3). I don't know about anyone else, but i run 5mm droop rear/1mm droop front.

3). i always run with the rear sway bar on- it keeps the car flat. start with minimal setting flush or 1- 2mm showing.
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Old 06-23-2005, 10:43 AM   #15402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asw7576
..................Currently the car is understeer big time off power and doesn't feel sticky under acceleration. ................

Many many thanks for helping me.
Complementing Robbie's consideration about rear toe-in

Rear toe-in. in the car creates two opposing forces, that causes stability at the rear of the car. Toe-out causes instability, so there's no point in using it at the rear of your car, it will make it undrivebable.
If for whatever reason one force would become greater than the other, the car will be steered in the direction that causes weight transfer onto the tire that was losing weight in the first place. So the tire which was losing grip ends up with more weight, and hence more grip. The system stabilizes itself, this is also called negative feedback.
Rear Toe-in causes stability: it will create an effect that steers the car straight ahead., it will prevent the rear from 'stepping out' when the tires are constantly brought to the edges of the traction circle, and any bump can make them lose grip. To the driver it will feel as is the rear is really 'locked in', as if there's some invisible force keeping the rear on track. There's a downside to this too: in corners, especially low-speed ones, this can take away a lot of steering. The effect can be so big that the gripping power of the front tires is hardly sufficient to turn the car. In other words, excessive rear toe-in makes a car understeer.

Toe-in at the front does basically the same thing: it stabilizes the front. This can be a nice effect if you want to calm down the front of your car while accelerating. It will also make you lose a little steering; turn-in will be far less aggressive.

There's something else all sorts of toe do: they take away lag. The opposing forces, small as they usually are, take away all the slop in the suspension, and pre-load the tire in a lateral way. They slightly deform the tire carcasses, which makes the car react quicker, without any lag.

The downside to having lots of toe is primarily the loss of energy, or speed: more speed is being scrubbed off as the toe angle increases, since the tires' slip angle will be equally big. The grippier the track ,the bigger the energy loss will be, so avoid lots of toe when there's a lot of grip. Also, lots of toe will create big slip angles even when the car is running straight ahead. This is not a good starting point, since lots of slip makes a tire lose grip.

Normal values for toe at the front range from -1.5 to +1.5, any more would cause strange handling effects. At the rear, 0 to 2 degrees of toe-in are commonly used.

AFM
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Old 06-23-2005, 05:38 PM   #15403
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That was very well explained thank you.
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Old 06-23-2005, 11:40 PM   #15404
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Default What is the width of your stance?

I just noticed that both the FR and RR width of the car is lower than 200mm. Will a narrow wheel width affect handling? I know the FR dog pop out often in the Front while turning. I have tried to be the FR and the RR to 200mm but the dog bines are an issue. I need help
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Old 06-24-2005, 04:15 AM   #15405
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get the cvd's for the front- that's pretty much the only fix for your situation. as for the rear, i place small pieces of fuel tubing in the rear outdrives and in the axles to keep the dogbone centered.
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