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Old 07-04-2005, 01:06 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fraz
I do know nitro motors very well and there are two facts for sure.

Fact: This can happen and has happened to me but the rust was nowhere near that advanced of a state.

Fact: This is a bad fuel problem.

My experience happened a couple years ago with 2 brand new .21 motors, one a Paris Picco, one Novarossi. I was at the regionals which is a multi-day race. On the first motor (Picco), broke it in and started tuning that day. Got to the first qualifier and the motor that wasn't even leaned down yet popped. Needless to say, I had to break in the Novarossi pronto. There was plenty of time between rounds and I used up my next qualifier to putt around the outside line and come in to gradually lean it down. The day was over but I stayed to get my motor tuned for the next day. The motor started coming in and all of the sudden died on the back straight. I brought it in and sure enough the fluwheel wouldn't rotate all the way around by hand (always a bad sign). Two new popped motors in one day? Is this possible?

Well I tore 'em down and surprisingly they had the same problem. They were filled with rust and the races of the main bearings were broken sending pieces of the race and balls floating around in the case. They were both running brand new O'Donnell 30% and there is no question that was the culprit. BTW, both motors were running 200-205F and nowhere near being race lean yet. I switched from that fuel that day and never looked back.

Honestly, had this not happened to me, I wouldn't believe this guy either.

sonik: That motor is a roach now. There are no salvageable parts IMO with the possible exception of the carb if you tear it down and clean it. While it may not be polite, sKiMpYbOy's message was the best advice here and you need a new motor and don't waste your time with this one. My other advice... heat it up to ~1000F and melt it into a cool looking paperweight

May I ask you what fuel you are using now?
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Old 07-04-2005, 01:41 PM   #92
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i cant speek for other people here but a lot of the peopel at my local track are using Rocket Science. I really like it, but thats my oppinion.
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Old 07-04-2005, 02:40 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M7H
Maybe that was the problem, because of the rich setting.....
that way, a lot of nitro was still left in the engine, and nitro loves to bind with water.......
Nope, Nitromethane is hydrophobic, but Methanol is VERY hydroscopic.
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Old 07-04-2005, 02:47 PM   #94
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Ok, after reading all of this, here is what I think:

We all saw the rusty depositions on the aluminum parts. To get the rust up the conrod and sleeve that far, some liquid which is causing corrosion must have been standing inside the engine when it was stored. If the engine would have been dry, only the steel parts would have corroded.

So, since he was breaking it in, I suppose that there was a lot of fuel left inside the engine when he stored it. No matter if he poured some ARO into it, the fuels would still be in there.

The methanole in the fuel is very hygroscopic, ie. it's attracting water.

This mixture must have been sitting inside the engine for 3 weeks and have caused this mayhem.
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Old 07-04-2005, 03:40 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onnetz
what kind of oil is in the valvespout container?
i didnt realise it was just the container details on the bottle, my lhs must be filling the valvespout bottles with there own formula and selling it on,

i assume the aro is ok being as the lhs must know what they are doing , loads of people have bought from them .
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Old 07-04-2005, 03:47 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefan
Ok, after reading all of this, here is what I think:

We all saw the rusty depositions on the aluminum parts. To get the rust up the conrod and sleeve that far, some liquid which is causing corrosion must have been standing inside the engine when it was stored. If the engine would have been dry, only the steel parts would have corroded.

So, since he was breaking it in, I suppose that there was a lot of fuel left inside the engine when he stored it. No matter if he poured some ARO into it, the fuels would still be in there.

The methanole in the fuel is very hygroscopic, ie. it's attracting water.

This mixture must have been sitting inside the engine for 3 weeks and have caused this mayhem.
yep , this seems the most likely answer , funny how a lot of people just cant believe this can happen , and insist i must have been holding something back,

a lot of people are saying i should bin the engine, what do you think ? worth a rebuild for the carpark

thank's for your knowledgeable input
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Old 07-05-2005, 12:13 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonik
yep , this seems the most likely answer , funny how a lot of people just cant believe this can happen , and insist i must have been holding something back,

a lot of people are saying i should bin the engine, what do you think ? worth a rebuild for the carpark

thank's for your knowledgeable input
Sorry, but I think it'll be cheaper to buy a new engine.

Or you should probably consider replacing the bearings, try to save the crank and get a BRB piston/sleeve set from Palmaris Racing.
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Old 07-05-2005, 06:41 AM   #98
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Default re PALMARIS

IF YOU READ EDWARD'S VIEWS ON AFTERRUN IN THE OD FUEL THREAD AND AFTERRUN THREAD HE STATES HE FEELS ON OD FUEL HE HAS NO NEED TO FLUSH HIS ENGINES OR EVEN TO DRAIN THE FUEL TANK!!!! While I don't agree you have to admit TOP GUN has a lot of experience,he even states he has left his engines sit for weeks with fuel in them with no adverse effects.The combination of a strong oxidizer and water absorbed thru alcohol will cause problems but with modern lube packages and afterrun that kind of damage should have been a thing of the past.He also goes on to say OD fuel is the best he has ever run.
Running his piston and sleeve is the best suggestion given to date I would also use his rod.If you do much more damage on your disassembly you won't have to worry about a rebuild,I would heed the advice you have been given
rather than forge ahead with hack repairs,as long as you ask for advice LISTEN,on disassembly heat is your friend aluminum will expand faster and further than brass or steel allowing dis assembly without damage.The same is true if you get to the point of removing engine bearings or OFNA makes a great bearing removal tool set.The set is also great for aligning bearings for reinstallation.I would not in your case order any new parts until you have the engine disassembled to it's smallest components on the bench in front of you.
No offense but until this point you have been your own worst enemy.
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Old 07-05-2005, 09:18 AM   #99
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would like to read edwards article on od and aro , been looking but cant find it ? have you got a link ?

no offence taken , i agree with you i am my own worst enemy lol, but when there is no one that is experienced around me, to show me , i have to learn somehow , i cant see that i did much wrong , untill i started taking it apart , there was nothing to lose ? as far as i can tell the piston and liner would need to be replaced anyway , so it's not to bad , if the rest of the bits are salvagable that is.

but the problem is how do i get the rest of the p/s out ?
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Old 07-05-2005, 09:45 AM   #100
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Default top gun 777

Its posted in the BYRON OR ODONNEL FUEL thread,not an article just statement of personal experience.
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Old 07-05-2005, 10:04 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonik
would like to read edwards article on od and aro , been looking but cant find it ? have you got a link ?

no offence taken , i agree with you i am my own worst enemy lol, but when there is no one that is experienced around me, to show me , i have to learn somehow , i cant see that i did much wrong , untill i started taking it apart , there was nothing to lose ? as far as i can tell the piston and liner would need to be replaced anyway , so it's not to bad , if the rest of the bits are salvagable that is.

but the problem is how do i get the rest of the p/s out ?
Hi Sonic.
I don't write articles-my english is sucks and have no time for it.
i have berrely time to work on new projects. if you go through my posts defenetly you will find some usefull info (it is 1500 posts).
I like O'Donnell fuel (to compare for what I have run so far and what is available on our market), it doesn't leave any resedue, keep engine clean even without after run oil, I never use after run oil, I never clean my motors till I need to change something-I am too leasy for it. It is not I recomend to do the same, it just what I am doing and never have had problems like rust or varnish.
I run about 60-80 gallons of O'Donnnel fuel since I use it-have no problem with it at all.
Edward
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Old 07-05-2005, 10:17 AM   #102
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if he is correct in what he is saying then , my engine should never have done this in the first place ???
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Old 07-05-2005, 11:10 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonik
if he is correct in what he is saying then , my engine should never have done this in the first place ???
If he is correct-yes, you are right. But I will take to concideration-yuo are in UK where is himudity 120% and it means your motor is sucking too much water with air while it is working. Here in California our himudity level is about 30-50% and we don't have this problem. Oxidation process going much faster when temperature is higher then ambient, so it is possible that rusting process began during the first start-it just assumption, not a statment. Actualy rusty marks on corod telling me that oxidation was during the run, not in storing process. If you store engine with water present-only steel parts will rust, Aluminium will stay clean. As I saw on picture it is that there was a flow which brought rust on aluminium parts.
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Old 07-05-2005, 11:53 AM   #104
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Sonik dude ..... how come your JP FX is silver body and mine is black ??
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Old 07-05-2005, 12:04 PM   #105
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I never thought of that. Shouldn't all JP's be black at the crank? Except for the Stock series....

John
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