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Old 06-19-2013, 11:00 AM   #61
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I admit I'm bad at staying on topic on these threads but my excuse is that I get suckered into it by others! (That's my story and I'm sticking to it!)

I really tried to get away from the Edam, Motonica, belt drive, Kyosho F1, Shaft drive etc. stuff buy getting off that thread. Now either there is no interest in the "no-frills" approach (I do see afew posts regarding the idea) or the "Classic" (Modern Pan) proponents are confused about the intent of this thread.

Please don't get me wrong, I think the Classic (European) DR (Double Reduction) cars are cool. I have two and am building one out of Serpent 966 parts, but I believe it is not the $300 car Hitcharide does. Therefore I am trying to get ideas on a simpler car that I thought this thread was aimed at discussing.

So I'm asking how to get a conversation going that stays more on topic (I do realize there will be some other information brought up and that is good) but I
MAINLY want to develop ideas and discuss concerns on VINTAGE STYLE PAN CARS. (Yes, I know I am shouting!! )
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Old 06-19-2013, 11:21 AM   #62
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1/8 Pan Car ala Associated 250

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe if you read the "European" thread you will see that we have been all over and around this discussion. I too believe that a 'RTR" 1/8 Scale Nitro for $350 would sell and help keep the scale and racing alive in that class. The 4wd stuff is too expensive and too fast for all but the best builders and drivers.

As far as I know, all of those talking about building cars on these forums are working with the idea of copying the layout and design of the modern European pan cars for a couple of reasons. The first is because rubber donuts are no longer available to glue up tires on old school wheels and also because since the Euro cars have adjustable rear toe and camber, they want it too.

As I see it this type of car is too complicated and fragile to be built by individuals without CAD-CAM capabilities. A one off might be successful, and certainly could be a fun project, but even limited production would be next to impossible. IMHO....

On the idea of a Vintage Associated 250 type clone, I see a few issues, although I believe they are easier to overcome than the ones that come up trying to build a belt drive, adjustable rear suspension car. One issue is that the car has to be able to use the readily available wheels. This is easy to do on the front, but the rear diff side can be a problem. The easiest solution here is to eliminate the diff. Without the diff the rear wheel to axle adapters are simple to make. Next problem is the brake. Not really too bad but a simple band brake on the clutch bell (as was used in the early days) would be super easy. A disk setup isn't too bad to make, but does require additional parts. The clutch assembly and gears are something that could cause some issues too. We have not been able to find any spur gears of the correct sizes to get an exceptable gear ratio. 12 tooth pinions can be found on clutch assemblies used in some 1/8 scale off road cars, but even with a 4:1 ratio (5:1 would be closer to optiminal) haven't found any 48 to 60 tooth spurs. Simple, plain spur gears will certainly be easier to find than ones that will work with a diff. Another reason to not have them...)

As far as engines, I would like to try a spec OS .18 or sometlhing like that. Should be plenty of power and cost around $150.

I had started to build such a car and even have a contact with CNC capability who could likely make a run of 20 to 25 cars. (He has made 1/10 scale electric kits.) Unfortunately I never got much support.

(Now just to confuse you, I can see the point of making a wide, 235mm, 1/10 scale car. There are more tracks that could handle this size. Donuts and pre glued tires are available and gears and diffs are not a problem. there are many parts that are used in 1/10 scale pan cars (associated front ends) that are readilly available. Two negatives are the lack of bodies for this size car, and the biggest one in my mind: Cluch parts.)

One of the things discussed on the other thread was the different mind set of people today who want "instant gratification". In the past we thought nothing of buying a chassis, from one company, engine from another, radio frim another, body from another. Then we had to assemble stuff, trim and paint the body, etc., etc., etc. Now you can go into the hobby store, buy an RTR and go out and bash or race. The thought we had was that for nitro, espically 1/8th on road, needs RTR, turn-key cars to get people interested enough to give it a try.....

Comments and questions welcome! LOL

Ned Schmaltz
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Old 06-19-2013, 11:39 AM   #63
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Like I said in a post to Matt, before you can design a car, you need to set your goals.

1) Modern Pan (Moto Type)
a) Compete on equal terms and produceable for sale (gear diff, double ratio reduction, etc.)
b) Matt/Phil Type/one-off/prototype (FrankinModern, some off the shelf parts, some custom)

2) Vintage Pan (Associated 300/Delta XXX Type)
a) Deluxe (Diff, Disk Brake, adjustable front end caster, chamber, etc
b) Basic (no diff, clutch band brake, simple front end with little or no adjustment)

All types need to use "modern Wheels/Tires".

The main issues remain clutch, gears, diff (if used).

Check out these pics of old cars on Flickr, for some ideas and insight on the "good old days"! Joe P. mentioned that the cars were simplier before the availibility of CNC maching and these pics show what he's talking about.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8418165484/

When I started I got a $100 Dynamic Sidewinder and soon wanted a Delta. Didn't have the money so I built copies with a hack saw, files and a drill press that use a 1/4 inch hand drill! I added Delta wheels, clutch, gears, and servo saver! Can't come close to that today!!
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Old 06-19-2013, 01:46 PM   #64
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Like I said in a post to Matt, before you can design a car, you need to set your goals.

1) Modern Pan (Moto Type)
a) Compete on equal terms and produceable for sale (gear diff, double ratio reduction, etc.)
b) Matt/Phil Type/one-off/prototype (FrankinModern, some off the shelf parts, some custom)

2) Vintage Pan (Associated 300/Delta XXX Type)
a) Deluxe (Diff, Disk Brake, adjustable front end caster, chamber, etc
b) Basic (no diff, clutch band brake, simple front end with little or no adjustment)

All types need to use "modern Wheels/Tires".

The main issues remain clutch, gears, diff (if used).

Check out these pics of old cars on Flickr, for some ideas and insight on the "good old days"! Joe P. mentioned that the cars were simplier before the availibility of CNC maching and these pics show what he's talking about.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8418165484/

When I started I got a $100 Dynamic Sidewinder and soon wanted a Delta. Didn't have the money so I built copies with a hack saw, files and a drill press that use a 1/4 inch hand drill! I added Delta wheels, clutch, gears, and servo saver! Can't come close to that today!!
......Ned...I guess i've never taken a long hard look at Deltas old pinion/spur gear setup.....Did they have an extension on the clutch bell that allowed the real small pinions??...you have any close up pics of Delta's setup???..I had luck finding 11 tooth clutch bells that I could run with a 63 tooth spur on my 300 cars...but as you know,....soon as there was some tire wear the spur is almost hitting the ground....If I could duplicate a Delta type clutch ( to be able to run a 10 tooth spur) I could slap some of my 58 tooth spur gears on the 300. That would give me a good ratio AND ground clearance.........This past Sunday I had motor trouble and put in another older Picco motor...All of a sudden the handling of my Franken-build improved dramatically....All w/o a ball or gear diff in the rear....I guess im not convinced yet that you have to have a diff to run fast.....(ala go kart).......Im thinking an even softer chassis for my car will work with the solid rear...as I ran a few tanks with my chassis "locked down...ie..stiff"...and handling turned terrible....my old Davis 8L car last year was very soft and VERY hooked up........more experimentation to follow...
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Old 06-19-2013, 02:43 PM   #65
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......Ned...I guess i've never taken a long hard look at Deltas old pinion/spur gear setup.....Did they have an extension on the clutch bell that allowed the real small pinions??...you have any close up pics of Delta's setup???..I had luck finding 11 tooth clutch bells that I could run with a 63 tooth spur on my 300 cars...but as you know,....soon as there was some tire wear the spur is almost hitting the ground....If I could duplicate a Delta type clutch ( to be able to run a 10 tooth spur) I could slap some of my 58 tooth spur gears on the 300. That would give me a good ratio AND ground clearance.........This past Sunday I had motor trouble and put in another older Picco motor...All of a sudden the handling of my Franken-build improved dramatically....All w/o a ball or gear diff in the rear....I guess im not convinced yet that you have to have a diff to run fast.....(ala go kart).......Im thinking an even softer chassis for my car will work with the solid rear...as I ran a few tanks with my chassis "locked down...ie..stiff"...and handling turned terrible....my old Davis 8L car last year was very soft and VERY hooked up........more experimentation to follow...
Matt,
I think the key to the Delta type clutch is the small pinions you can use. The basic idea is that the clutch is supported by an outboard bearing between the gear and clutch bell. That way the bearings are not inside the gear, so the gear can be smaller.
You can buy pinion stock or wire that is just gear teeth and machine the end down to fit your bearings and stuff.
A actual delta clutch an top of being rare and expensive requires the crank to be cut way down, the last versions clamped on to the crank with no treads at all.
What I did was cut off an Associated 11 tooth and put a shaft in the bearing bore. For the bell I used an off-road one and machined the teeth of the gear so it fit in the outboard bearing I mounted on the pod plate. This let me use the bell to hold a bearing that pilots on the SG shaft on the crank, no changes to crank.
If this seems to work, I will make a purpose built clutch bell and get some pinion wire to make a proper pinion.

I'm thinking that especially without a diff, the gear ratio can be closer to 5.5 and take away some of the low end...That's how I'm geared and will test someday.

delta sketch.pdf
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Old 06-19-2013, 04:52 PM   #66
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If this seems to work, I will make a purpose built clutch bell and get some pinion wire to make a proper pinion.

I'm thinking that especially without a diff, the gear ratio can be closer to 5.5 and take away some of the low end...That's how I'm geared and will test someday.

Attachment 1080941
...definitely need less low end with a solid rear...2 weeks ago my Centax was setup almost like a 4WD clutch...I had to much gap and too much preload...when the clutch hit coming off the corners I was WAY LOOSE....This past Sunday I tightened up the gap and loosened the preload...clutch was WAY better....Think I see what Delta did by your pic...maybe we can repro it cheap...
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Old 06-21-2013, 08:29 AM   #67
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......Ned...I guess i've never taken a long hard look at Deltas old pinion/spur gear setup.....Did they have an extension on the clutch bell that allowed the real small pinions??...you have any close up pics of Delta's setup???..I had luck finding 11 tooth clutch bells that I could run with a 63 tooth spur on my 300 cars...but as you know,....soon as there was some tire wear the spur is almost hitting the ground....If I could duplicate a Delta type clutch ( to be able to run a 10 tooth spur) I could slap some of my 58 tooth spur gears on the 300. That would give me a good ratio AND ground clearance.........This past Sunday I had motor trouble and put in another older Picco motor...All of a sudden the handling of my Franken-build improved dramatically....All w/o a ball or gear diff in the rear....I guess im not convinced yet that you have to have a diff to run fast.....(ala go kart).......Im thinking an even softer chassis for my car will work with the solid rear...as I ran a few tanks with my chassis "locked down...ie..stiff"...and handling turned terrible....my old Davis 8L car last year was very soft and VERY hooked up........more experimentation to follow...
guys, i have an idea too maybe solve our clutch issues. i'll first make a mock up in aluminum and check things out. please refresh my memory we use 32 pitch 20 degree gears ?. i assume any pinion that size most likely 1/8th hole. this is a side project so won't be over night any research help will be great.
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Old 06-21-2013, 08:34 AM   #68
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guys, i have an idea too maybe solve our clutch issues. i'll first make a mock up in aluminum and check things out. please refresh my memory we use 32 pitch 20 degree gears ?. i assume any pinion that size most likely 1/8th hole. this is a side project so won't be over night any research help will be great.
Nope - we used to use 24 pitch 20 degree Pressure angle but all the current gears use the metric module system.
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Old 06-21-2013, 09:14 AM   #69
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Nope - we used to use 24 pitch 20 degree Pressure angle but all the current gears use the metric module system.
..... .8 mod or 1.0 module??....get that arbor slit will ya....
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Old 06-21-2013, 10:45 AM   #70
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Hello, my name is Danny and I live in So Cal. I have been pondering the need for an entry level on road fuel class for many years now. I like you have been thinking of the different variables associated with this and came to the same conclusions regarding the clutch, brake and spur gear issues. Someone recently suggested I contact Jay Kimbrough from Kimbrough Products and that perhaps he may be willing to help out with the gears. Clutch bells and clutches may not be as big a problem with the availability of off road clutches and bells which have been refined fairly well over the years and are made to use the SG crank configuration.

Do you know of http://goldenyearsrc.com/brian-wilme...ering/15440663 ?

Romulus put together an amazing assortment of vintage pan cars and equipment and also was very interested in building his own pan car. Perhaps you may speak to him sometime about your ideas.

I want to share an observation. In the early 90's serpent released the impact 1/10 2wd on road car. It was a huge hit and later Picco and BMT released their own versions. The tragic end of this class came about ten years later not long after the ifmar worlds in Cincinnati in 2002. The end came after years of updating and creating faster and faster models. The cars were originally 2wd, .12 engines. Later they went to .15 engines, then 4wd. These upgrades are what I think killed the class. By the end of this era, these cars were just short of the expenses fielded by 1/8 racers. After this class perished, the 1/10 sedans came on the scene. And again was viewed as an entry portal to on road fuel racing. Well, when this class started rolling in the early 2000's, at any given club race here in L.A. there would be 25-35 cars. Now, three cars show up on a regular basis. Why? Cost. The only reasonable thing about running a sedan now a days are the cost of tires. The cars and and some engines are nearly the same cost as 1/8 on road. My point is this, if a Pan car class can get off the ground, which I think it could if done correctly, the rules must be cemented so far down that nothing could shake or change them. The euro pan cars are beautiful but cost what a current 4wd 1/8 kit costs. I agree that the pan car should not have any suspension and a live axle while simplifying the build process may prove to difficult for the average person to drive. I started with an rc300 BD and have never driven a live axle car, well except when the front belt goes out my current 4wd car and it ain't no picnic to drive. On the other hand, one guy who loved live axles and was about the fastest guy on the planet at the time was Bill Jianas.

BTW, Romulus had some adaptors made to accomodate todays quick change 1/8 rear wheels for one of his pan cars, so it can be done.

IMO, if a pan car class is created, I think a serious look must be taken at weather it is 1/10 or 1/8. Both scales offer various advantages and disadvantages. Perhaps this forum might help narrow this down. For instance bodies for 1/8 are widely available but 235mm 1/10 does not offer many. And 235mm tires and wheels are non existent because no one makes them anymore.

Anyhow, just my 2 cents. BTW, Rick Davis, has anyone told you lately you are still a BADA$$ dude!

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Old 06-21-2013, 12:42 PM   #71
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..... .8 mod or 1.0 module??....get that arbor slit will ya....
"Think" most of the current 1/8th is 1.0 (Capricorn might be .8) and most 1/10th are .8
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Old 06-21-2013, 12:51 PM   #72
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Clutch bells and clutches may not be as big a problem with the availability of off road clutches and bells which have been refined fairly well over the years and are made to use the SG crank configuration.

I agree with what you say except that the clutch bells from off road clutches will not work out well with the desired gear ratios. It has been discussed before but in a nut shell the gears are too big to get the correct ratio, because the outer support bearing is inside the gear. 12 tooth is the smallest off road pinion and it is rare. Coupled with a 58 spur, you are at 4.8 : 1. In the other life we were running about 5.2 to 5.4. Now if everyone has to run a specific gear ratio, the clutch problem is pretty much solved, as long as you can find 12 tooth pinions.

Do you know of http://goldenyearsrc.com/brian-wilme...ering/15440663 ?


I want to share an observation. In the early 90's serpent released the impact 1/10 2wd on road car. It was a huge hit and later Picco and BMT released their own versions. The tragic end of this class came about ten years later not long after the ifmar worlds in Cincinnati in 2002. The end came after years of updating and creating faster and faster models. The cars were originally 2wd, .12 engines. Later they went to .15 engines, then 4wd. These upgrades are what I think killed the class. By the end of this era, these cars were just short of the expenses fielded by 1/8 racers. After this class perished, the 1/10 sedans came on the scene. And again was viewed as an entry portal to on road fuel racing. Well, when this class started rolling in the early 2000's, at any given club race here in L.A. there would be 25-35 cars. Now, three cars show up on a regular basis. Why? Cost. The only reasonable thing about running a sedan now a days are the cost of tires. The cars and and some engines are nearly the same cost as 1/8 on road.

Yeah, they call it Progress!

My point is this, if a Pan car class can get off the ground, which I think it could if done correctly, the rules must be cemented so far down that nothing could shake or change them. The euro pan cars are beautiful but cost what a current 4wd 1/8 kit costs.

Exactly!

I agree that the pan car should not have any suspension and a live axle while simplifying the build process may prove to difficult for the average person to drive. I started with an rc300 BD and have never driven a live axle car, well except when the front belt goes out my current 4wd car and it ain't no picnic to drive. On the other hand, one guy who loved live axles and was about the fastest guy on the planet at the time was Bill Jianas.

Again, it's been mentioned before about running a straight axle car, MUCH easier to make the rear axle. We need to get a car tested both ways. My Prototype can be used, but I have to get to a reasonable, prepared track (400 to 600 Miles are the closest I know!!) to try it out.

BTW, Romulus had some adaptors made to accomodate todays quick change 1/8 rear wheels for one of his pan cars, so it can be done.

Adapters can be made, but what do you want to adapt to? An associated BD axle? To valuable...I've made adapters for a number of cars but I'm not able to make them for others (with exceptions) because it takes too long. If you knew what could be used, a cad design and a CNC could make a small run reasonably.

IMO, if a pan car class is created, I think a serious look must be taken at weather it is 1/10 or 1/8. Both scales offer various advantages and disadvantages. Perhaps this forum might help narrow this down. For instance bodies for 1/8 are widely available but 235mm 1/10 does not offer many. And 235mm tires and wheels are non existent because no one makes them anymore.

I hear what you are saying, although on this tread I would like to assume that we are talking about 1/8th as it is in the title. (I will now become inconsistent on that comment and say maybe the ".21" should be discussed!) I consider the tires and body issues (although I HATE the current crop of "door-stops") to be deciding factors on 1/8 vs. 1/10.

To show I'm not prejudiced, I have two Modern Pans (DFX Vortex and P8 Moto), my prototype 1/8 No-frills), a 1/10 TRC, and I'm working on a Modern Pan conversion using Serpent 966 parts, + I want to start a "1/8 NF Lite" similar to the other prototype but using 1/10 scale gears (32P) and a band brake on the clutch bell, on a O.S. 18 engine. Now if I could only race them to see what works!!!


Anyhow, just my 2 cents. BTW, Rick Davis, has anyone told you lately you are still a BADA$$ dude!
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Old 06-21-2013, 01:39 PM   #73
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Nope - we used to use 24 pitch 20 degree Pressure angle but all the current gears use the metric module system.
thanks, i really need too write stuff down
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Old 06-21-2013, 04:05 PM   #74
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Hello, my name is Danny and I live in So Cal. I have been pondering the need for an entry level on road fuel class for many years now. I like you have been thinking of the different variables associated with this and came to the same conclusions regarding the clutch, brake and spur gear issues. Someone recently suggested I contact Jay Kimbrough from Kimbrough Products and that perhaps he may be willing to help out with the gears.
Do you know of http://goldenyearsrc.com/brian-wilme...ering/15440663 ?

Romulus put together an amazing assortment of vintage pan cars and equipment and also was very interested in building his own pan car. Perhaps you may speak to him sometime about your ideas.

I want to share an observation. In the early 90's serpent released the impact 1/10 2wd on road car. It was a huge hit and later Picco and BMT released their own versions. The tragic end of this class came about ten years later not long after the ifmar worlds in Cincinnati in 2002. The end came after years of updating and creating faster and faster models. The cars were originally 2wd, .12 engines. Later they went to .15 engines, then 4wd. These upgrades are what I think killed the class. By the end of this era, these cars were just short of the expenses fielded by 1/8 racers. After this class perished, the 1/10 sedans came on the scene. And again was viewed as an entry portal to on road fuel racing. Well, when this class started rolling in the early 2000's, at any given club race here in L.A. there would be 25-35 cars. Now, three cars show up on a regular basis. Why? Cost. The only reasonable thing about running a sedan now a days are the cost of tires. The cars and and some engines are nearly the same cost as 1/8 on road. My point is this, if a Pan car class can get off the ground, which I think it could if done correctly, the rules must be cemented so far down that nothing could shake or change them. The euro pan cars are beautiful but cost what a current 4wd 1/8 kit costs. I agree that the pan car should not have any suspension and a live axle while simplifying the build process may prove to difficult for the average person to drive. I started with an rc300 BD and have never driven a live axle car, well except when the front belt goes out my current 4wd car and it ain't no picnic to drive. On the other hand, one guy who loved live axles and was about the fastest guy on the planet at the time was Bill Jianas.

BTW, Romulus had some adaptors made to accomodate todays quick change 1/8 rear wheels for one of his pan cars, so it can be done.

IMO, if a pan car class is created, I think a serious look must be taken at weather it is 1/10 or 1/8. Both scales offer various advantages and disadvantages. Perhaps this forum might help narrow this down. For instance bodies for 1/8 are widely available but 235mm 1/10 does not offer many. And 235mm tires and wheels are non existent because no one makes them anymore.

Anyhow, just my 2 cents. BTW, Rick Davis, has anyone told you lately you are still a BADA$$ dude!
Danny...the discussion about the demise of the 235 class has been hashed out many times here in Toledo....The ever increasing cost and speed of the class killed it....Why run a 235 when it costs as much as a 1/8 4WD car...???...Same for sedan...$400.00-500.00 for .12 ???...ridiculous....Why do we as racers feel the need to turn EVERY class into rocket-ships??.....that's what open 4WD is for.....
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Old 06-21-2013, 08:58 PM   #75
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Danny...the discussion about the demise of the 235 class has been hashed out many times here in Toledo....The ever increasing cost and speed of the class killed it....Why run a 235 when it costs as much as a 1/8 4WD car...???...Same for sedan...$400.00-500.00 for .12 ???...ridiculous....Why do we as racers feel the need to turn EVERY class into rocket-ships??.....that's what open 4WD is for.....
First....right now, I suspect 1/8 4wd may be the cheapest class to run provided the person is running an Edam (someone get Lon a pillow.) I'm pretty sure I'm undercutting every other single kit on the market.

Next....for whoever talked about RULES, this issue has been hashed, re-hashed....there are rules, they are in the Roar rule book. They are clear and precise, if we need to tweak 'em for todays stuff, so be it, but we have guidelines to run under....any issues cropping up should be handled locally so as to encourage participation.

I too have noticed less and less 1/10 showing up. Not much of a cost savings there, and they are just as fragile as the 1/8 if not more so. My general opinion of 1/10 scale (and I certainly mean no offense to those who drive one) is that it's a little like a very beautiful plate, with lovely garnish, surrounding a steaming pile of crap. Nice plate...yeah....nice garnish...sure...but it's still crap! So much for "progress."

I think we're moving generally in the right direction. We have pan kits currently available (still cost too much), we're experimenting with different builds, and so forth. Right now, we've got the option of showing up with vintage, new kit, or home-made. Hopefully by the end of the year or so, we'll have another manufacturer offering kits, we're still experimenting with what we can make ourselves, and there will be at least one vintage in the field at the GLC.

What're the chances of getting Rick to drive the GLC with his old pan? Enquiring minds want to know....
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