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Old 02-04-2013, 08:48 PM   #16
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Default 1/8 Pan Car ala Associated 250

I believe if you read the "European" thread you will see that we have been all over and around this discussion. I too believe that a 'RTR" 1/8 Scale Nitro for $350 would sell and help keep the scale and racing alive in that class. The 4wd stuff is too expensive and too fast for all but the best builders and drivers.

As far as I know, all of those talking about building cars on these forums are working with the idea of copying the layout and design of the modern European pan cars for a couple of reasons. The first is because rubber donuts are no longer available to glue up tires on old school wheels and also because since the Euro cars have adjustable rear toe and camber, they want it too.

As I see it this type of car is too complicated and fragile to be built by individuals without CAD-CAM capabilities. A one off might be successful, and certainly could be a fun project, but even limited production would be next to impossible. IMHO....

On the idea of a Vintage Associated 250 type clone, I see a few issues, although I believe they are easier to overcome than the ones that come up trying to build a belt drive, adjustable rear suspension car. One issue is that the car has to be able to use the readily available wheels. This is easy to do on the front, but the rear diff side can be a problem. The easiest solution here is to eliminate the diff. Without the diff the rear wheel to axle adapters are simple to make. Next problem is the brake. Not really too bad but a simple band brake on the clutch bell (as was used in the early days) would be super easy. A disk setup isn't too bad to make, but does require additional parts. The clutch assembly and gears are something that could cause some issues too. We have not been able to find any spur gears of the correct sizes to get an exceptable gear ratio. 12 tooth pinions can be found on clutch assemblies used in some 1/8 scale off road cars, but even with a 4:1 ratio (5:1 would be closer to optiminal) haven't found any 48 to 60 tooth spurs. Simple, plain spur gears will certainly be easier to find than ones that will work with a diff. Another reason to not have them...)

As far as engines, I would like to try a spec OS .18 or sometlhing like that. Should be plenty of power and cost around $150.

I had started to build such a car and even have a contact with CNC capability who could likely make a run of 20 to 25 cars. (He has made 1/10 scale electric kits.) Unfortunately I never got much support.

(Now just to confuse you, I can see the point of making a wide, 235mm, 1/10 scale car. There are more tracks that could handle this size. Donuts and pre glued tires are available and gears and diffs are not a problem. there are many parts that are used in 1/10 scale pan cars (associated front ends) that are readilly available. Two negatives are the lack of bodies for this size car, and the biggest one in my mind: Cluch parts.)

One of the things discussed on the other thread was the different mind set of people today who want "instant gratification". In the past we thought nothing of buying a chassis, from one company, engine from another, radio frim another, body from another. Then we had to assemble stuff, trim and paint the body, etc., etc., etc. Now you can go into the hobby store, buy an RTR and go out and bash or race. The thought we had was that for nitro, espically 1/8th on road, needs RTR, turn-key cars to get people interested enough to give it a try.....

Comments and questions welcome! LOL

Ned Schmaltz
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:02 PM   #17
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I am with Ned on this one. I would go a step further with the pan car idea and suggest 200mm wide cars with something like a spec OS 12 engine. I would also suggest the RC10GT for clutch parts. I have clutch bells down to 14 teeth. I really believe that some slight modifications on the old 235mm nitro conversion from companies like TRC made 10+ years ago. 200mm width would give you all of the HPI nitro bodies and the WGT bodies as well.
Ned, you may remember Robin running Jackie Leake's .12 TRC conversion against the 2wd BMTs with .15s and finishing in the top 3 with Dixie Racers. These cars have potential!

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Old 02-04-2013, 09:16 PM   #18
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I am with Ned on this one. I would go a step further with the pan car idea and suggest 200mm wide cars with something like a spec OS 12 engine. I would also suggest the RC10GT for clutch parts. I have clutch bells down to 14 teeth. I really believe that some slight modifications on the old 235mm nitro conversion from companies like TRC made 10+ years ago. 200mm width would give you all of the HPI nitro bodies and the WGT bodies as well.
Ned, you may remember Robin running Jackie Leake's .12 TRC conversion against the 2wd BMTs with .15s and finishing in the top 3 with Dixie Racers. These cars have potential!

Scott
200mm might be ok, sure would allow more bodys, Can you say NITRO VTA!!!

They run 1/10 oval in Easley and you can buy the cars I'm pretty sure. All you would have to do is get a "right and left" chassis. I'll ask around. Acutally I have parts for a couple of BOLINK Nitro cars. Believe i or not, .12's are a lot of power, the .09 's were much more controllable but hard to get reliable. I have a Picco .08 that is a real beauty...
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Old 06-02-2013, 08:07 PM   #19
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Default Still any interest?

Is there any interest in this subject/thread anymore?

I got bored with the "modern pan" stuff and built an Associated 300BD update.
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Old 06-02-2013, 10:11 PM   #20
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Default Ofna DM-1 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The GT class here in the Pacific North West is alive and thriving. Great way to introduce people to nitro. There is even a motor cost limit, but the Ofna RTR motor($100) is working great and very competitive.

I was more afraid of foams and breakages when considering nitro.

The 1/8 cars are over built and buggy based with rubber tires that last a season. The OFNA is a complete pacage and relies more on flexible plastic that bendable aluminum.

Would a carbon pan jumping dots and slamming sideways into curbs be the best way to introduce people?

Before I dove in, i had an opportunity to try a few tanks on an Ofna and fell in love with the power and possibilities of nitro and endurance racing.

It's been said before, I'm sure, but I think it could do for nitro what Short course did for off road.
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Old 06-03-2013, 10:34 AM   #21
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The GT class here in the Pacific North West is alive and thriving. Great way to introduce people to nitro. There is even a motor cost limit, but the Ofna RTR motor($100) is working great and very competitive.

I was more afraid of foams and breakages when considering nitro.

The 1/8 cars are over built and buggy based with rubber tires that last a season. The OFNA is a complete pacage and relies more on flexible plastic that bendable aluminum.

Would a carbon pan jumping dots and slamming sideways into curbs be the best way to introduce people?

Before I dove in, i had an opportunity to try a few tanks on an Ofna and fell in love with the power and possibilities of nitro and endurance racing.

It's been said before, I'm sure, but I think it could do for nitro what Short course did for off road.
Glad you like Nitro On-Road Racing! You are fortunate to have a place or places to race and guys to race with, many areas of the country do not.

Your opinion may be correct in some areas of the country. The experiences I've seen and heard of with the Buggy Conversions are that they are expensive and need many modifications to work. Tires were critical and guys were buying many sets a week. In the Midwest area, there are about equal pans and GT8's but the pans show some growth while essentially none in the GT's. Plus they look like big lumbering monsters! lol (my Opinions!)

The pans have been running for about three years in the Toledo area and there are more pans than GT's by far. Most all the pans being run now are imported from Italy or France directly and part support has been almost non-existant , hopefully to improve soon.

Anyway, If you have read the thread, were are talking about the POSSIBILITY of $350 cars (they would not be carbon, likely fiberglass) that are much simpler and yes stronger than either 4wd class. They are not toys, they are meant to race on a prepared track, hopefully without curbs and dots (those went out years ago!)

This type of car is what started all of RC racing in the 1970's and might bring a resurgence to 1/8 Gas racing if they are available. My point here is not to debate the pan vs. the GT8 or the vintage pan vs. the classic pan (the new production belt drive cars) but to discuss who to build etc. a vintage type pan, very cheaply.

On your idea that GT cars could be the SCT's of on-road, Too late! The GT's were around before the SCT's and never grew to any great size and seem to me at least to be on the decline. Unfortunately all of 1/8 scale on-road has been declining for decades and needs something to get more racers and tracks! GT's have been tried, time for something new. Don't forget we raced GT bodies on this type of car in the past were can again! And they were much better looking!!!


Ned

Spec 1/8 Pan Car .21 no frill's racing-assoc-porsche.jpg

Spec 1/8 Pan Car .21 no frill's racing-79-roar-nats-columbus.jpg

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Old 06-03-2013, 03:41 PM   #22
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GT has been the biggest class in just about every on road nitro event this year by ALOT. The tires last way longer than foams do Sweeps will last you 2 months easy, Alphas not so much but the Alphas are designed to be one and done on purpose, a new set will last you the entire weekend of racing though. Bang for the buck you cant beat GT! New kits are 550 and 600, used I just picked up a Kyosho IGT with engine,electronics and loads of parts for 200 bux. I will admit that they look a little strange but no less realistic than a wedge body!! You will spend less money and time with a GT than any other nitro foam class just because of tires alone and the fact that they dont break very easily if at all. the drivetrains go through a bit much but as long as you stay on top of it your fine. A beginner will have better results with a GT. Experienced racers can go either way but we all know that to be a top dawg in 1/8 open you gotta have your stuff together! how much does a tire truer cost, dont forget to add that into the equation!
Over the past three months my GT part sells have tripled, in fact i have spent the last four days trying to catch up with backorders on GT stuff. that says alot right there. It seems that in your region this may not be the case but look at all of the major events lately. GT is single handedly bringing nitro onroad back, good thing about that is that newcomers will fall into other classes too which also helps the classes grow!
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Old 06-03-2013, 03:50 PM   #23
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I hear ya.

We are lucky around here in the NW, for sure.

I hope it does work out as far as getting less expensive kits built.

In the end, racers will put as much time and money into cars as necessary if they feel they are going to receive an advantage, however great or small. That is what has mostly kept me from any spec racing myself. All categories do have a rule book and even "open" is limited.

I have not attempted 2wd nitro since a nitro RC10GT. Traction was never easy then. but even now my silver can 2wd f1 is a hand full, I can only assume a clutch kicking in would be more than I could handle.

Open 1/8 and pan are my favorite looking cars by far and I wish you all the best!
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Old 06-03-2013, 08:18 PM   #24
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I hear ya.

We are lucky around here in the NW, for sure.

I hope it does work out as far as getting less expensive kits built.

In the end, racers will put as much time and money into cars as necessary if they feel they are going to receive an advantage, however great or small. That is what has mostly kept me from any spec racing myself. All categories do have a rule book and even "open" is limited.

I have not attempted 2wd nitro since a nitro RC10GT. Traction was never easy then. but even now my silver can 2wd f1 is a hand full, I can only assume a clutch kicking in would be more than I could handle.

Open 1/8 and pan are my favorite looking cars by far and I wish you all the best!
Yeah it's a bitch in many parts of the country. I moved from Ohio to SC in '89 and had to go to Atl to race 1/8 gas. Now I have to go to Florida or Ohio, The Toledo club has members from Canada, Michigan, and other parts of Ohio. Only racing in the Midwest (Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin is in Toledo, Dayton, Cinci, Portage Indiana, and Racine Wisconsin.) From here in SC it's 400 miles min, to race!
The areas that have racing seem to be only a few remaining hotbeds. NY, FL, TX, Cali, and the NorthWest.

2 wd cars are not bad at all on prepared tracks. The cars are competitive with the 4wd GT's and in some instances they run together.
In the recent Toledo MWS Race there were 5 GT cars whose fastest laps in the main were 22 to 30 seconds. The 8 pan cars entered ran 22 to 25 second fastest laps in the main. Although the GT car ran 76 laps in the main and the pan ran only 72, the pan was driven by a young man around 12 yrs. old (my guess) in his first race with the car, although he has considerable experience.

Best of luck with your racing. If there is any interest, I will post some info and pics of the car I've been working on but it doesn't look much like it!!

Ned
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Old 06-03-2013, 10:32 PM   #25
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Ned,

I found this post almost by accident. I've run 1/8 scale nitro since the mid 80's and still have most of the cars. I am also personal friend of the last ROAR Pan Car Champion. My most enjoyment running nitro RC was running 2wd suspension cars. You had to make the chassis work as you could not pull the car around the corners like the 4wd cars. Single speed pan cars were simpler, but the suspension cars worked like full sized cars. My preference.

When running with our local crowd here in Colorado, we ran 1/8 scale gas with racers that would make the A-main at any national event of the time. It was usual to have almost half the A-main field be 2wd cars and Howard would get his pan car there depending on the track layout.

Today, I still run 1/8th open every once in a while, normally in the Masters Class, but have been really enjoying the GT8 cars. Yes they have been around longer than the Short Course Trucks, and have not grown like off road. Any Off Road ......

The Byrons race in a few weeks, which I have been to the last 3 years, already has 30+ entries signed up for the GT8 class. I have watched as the Midwest Series has lost racers and this is similar to other classes and other area's of the contry. What seems to be working (as it does for me) I go to a large race every 3-5 weeks from April thru October and in those events, The GT8 class entries have been as large as 1/10 touring or even 1/8th open. Some GT only events have 50+ entries, so how can you say they are dying?

I agree the GT8 cars could cost less, have a spec engine and even spec tires but that has not happened yet. I love how my 909 works on my MRX4x, but I like the looks of my McLaren on the GT8 car. And there are many spectators that can see and relate to the cars. Too bad the 911 is so hard to find, I also like the long wheel base Corvette and if we step back on all out speed in this class, the RTR kits could hang in there. I run a DM-1 that started that way.

So please don't kick the GT8 cars to the curb there seems to be racers in all parts of the country that are running this class. New manufacture in Serpent and a new car from OFNA (well really a Team C car) but a new car.

My 2 cents, Mark Wernimont
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Old 06-03-2013, 11:51 PM   #26
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i respect what you said about 1/8,but let me tell you something, beside gt class is the most interesting class not only in usa, brazil,colombia,mexico,dominican republic,puerto rico,chile,peru, and more country even europe, we fill it up all race everywhere, and a lot of 1/8 driver are racing GT, so im sorry for your comment but gt class is more excited than 1/8 so far, we have i least 10 different body wich we can paint a different style,more shipper than 1/8 and you have to drive more than 1/8 cause we use slick tire(rubber) so I personaly invited you to try want of this and let me know what easy it it , just my 2 cent good luck!!
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Old 06-03-2013, 11:53 PM   #27
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Ned,

I found this post almost by accident. I've run 1/8 scale nitro since the mid 80's and still have most of the cars. I am also personal friend of the last ROAR Pan Car Champion. My most enjoyment running nitro RC was running 2wd suspension cars. You had to make the chassis work as you could not pull the car around the corners like the 4wd cars. Single speed pan cars were simpler, but the suspension cars worked like full sized cars. My preference.

When running with our local crowd here in Colorado, we ran 1/8 scale gas with racers that would make the A-main at any national event of the time. It was usual to have almost half the A-main field be 2wd cars and Howard would get his pan car there depending on the track layout.

Today, I still run 1/8th open every once in a while, normally in the Masters Class, but have been really enjoying the GT8 cars. Yes they have been around longer than the Short Course Trucks, and have not grown like off road. Any Off Road ......

The Byrons race in a few weeks, which I have been to the last 3 years, already has 30+ entries signed up for the GT8 class. I have watched as the Midwest Series has lost racers and this is similar to other classes and other area's of the contry. What seems to be working (as it does for me) I go to a large race every 3-5 weeks from April thru October and in those events, The GT8 class entries have been as large as 1/10 touring or even 1/8th open. Some GT only events have 50+ entries, so how can you say they are dying?

I agree the GT8 cars could cost less, have a spec engine and even spec tires but that has not happened yet. I love how my 909 works on my MRX4x, but I like the looks of my McLaren on the GT8 car. And there are many spectators that can see and relate to the cars. Too bad the 911 is so hard to find, I also like the long wheel base Corvette and if we step back on all out speed in this class, the RTR kits could hang in there. I run a DM-1 that started that way.

So please don't kick the GT8 cars to the curb there seems to be racers in all parts of the country that are running this class. New manufacture in Serpent and a new car from OFNA (well really a Team C car) but a new car.

My 2 cents, Mark Wernimont
I think pan has a decent future.....

I'm working with Edam to produce a pan RTR, I'm hoping for a price under 500 but that'll be two cars for the price of one as it can be run either as a 4wd, or modified with included parts to run as a 2wd with diff.

And...I'm happy to report that with a car of our own build (BC/RC) we got 2nd at the Midwest race in Portage in a main of 10 entries of both pan and GT. And pan was 1st thru 3rd (maybe more, I don't quite recall) but the pan I ran uses the Kyosho GT2 driveline and Edam hubs/axle shafts. To the best of my knowledge, it's the only pan that isn't belt drive. I do think GT has a good future, but I'm irked at the outrageous price of most GT products, and most pan kits aren't a whole lot better. The car we built, we've got maybe 300 bucks in, not including engine. This means, at least to us, that it's possible to compete with a cheaper product, and a prototype at that, since it's only the 2nd time it's ever been on a track.
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Old 06-04-2013, 09:23 AM   #28
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Just to share some of my thoughts with you all regarding Pan/GT combined class in the Midwest. On the surface it is a good idea to combine both class into one. However, in actuality it will hurt the growth of the GT class. First of, under the capable hands the pan cars actually are about 1 second faster than the GT cars (so if the fastest pan car happens to finish every Midwest Series race then the best results for GTs can only be 2nd place overall in the series. Also based on the pan car body style it can simply "scoop" the GT cars off line during hardcore racing to give pan cars an unfair advantage (that happened several times to my GT car at the Portage race over the weekend and broke my car during the race and I ended up 4th place). So while I totally understand the reason behind combining both classes into one, however at the same time the current practice might actually discourage GT drivers to participate future events in the Midwest region in the long run.

And I just want to add that I have total repect towards the 1/8 Pan car it is a great class on its own (and I would love to see it take off as well) just not a good idea to combine two completely different classes into one and sharing the same results since they are completely different in size, weight and class.

The feedback from the last Portage, IN race was provided to the Midwest Series organizer and he respects all comments from the GT racers and necessary changes will be made as result (Thank you Dennis, you are AWESOME).
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Old 06-04-2013, 10:07 AM   #29
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Just to share some of my thoughts with you all regarding Pan/GT combined class in the Midwest. On the surface it is a good idea to combine both class into one. However, in actuality it will hurt the growth of the GT class. First of, under the capable hands the pan cars actually are about 1 second faster than the GT cars (so if the fastest pan car happens to finish every Midwest Series race then the best results for GTs can only be 2nd place overall in the series. Also based on the pan car body style it can simply "scoop" the GT cars off line during hardcore racing to give pan cars an unfair advantage (that happened several times to my GT car at the Portage race over the weekend and broke my car during the race and I ended up 4th place). So while I totally understand the reason behind combining both classes into one, however at the same time the current practice might actually discourage GT drivers to participate future events in the Midwest region in the long run.

And I just want to add that I have total repect towards the 1/8 Pan car it is a great class on its own (and I would love to see it take off as well) just not a good idea to combine two completely different classes into one and sharing the same results since they are completely different in size, weight and class.

The feedback from the last Portage, IN race was provided to the Midwest Series organizer and he respects all comments from the GT racers and necessary changes will be made as result (Thank you Dennis, you are AWESOME).
Right now we're forced to combine due to our numbers (or lack thereof.) This isn't a problem at a race like the GLC, where GT and pan have seperate mains, but in smaller races, it's silly having only three or four entries running at a time. And they are comparable in lap time (and if you include our build, comparable in weight as well.) We're doing what we can with what we have, and hope that eventually we'll get more numbers on our side. IMHO, with the racing we have, less speed but a LOT more action, we'll get more drivers as time goes by. I don't think 4wd has the "wheel to wheel" racing that we have, and I've noticed sometimes that more people watch the pan/GT run than do the higher 4wd mains.
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Old 06-04-2013, 11:08 AM   #30
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Ned,

Today, I still run 1/8th open every once in a while, normally in the Masters Class, but have been really enjoying the GT8 cars. Yes they have been around longer than the Short Course Trucks, and have not grown like off road. Any Off Road ......

True enough. Off-road is king right now and I don't see it changing. Here in SC we have a great facility, banked oval, 1/10 scale on-road, and off-road. Only the off-road is booming. The TC track has not been used in 3 years...

The Byrons race in a few weeks, which I have been to the last 3 years, already has 30+ entries signed up for the GT8 class. I have watched as the Midwest Series has lost racers and this is similar to other classes and other area's of the contry. What seems to be working (as it does for me) I go to a large race every 3-5 weeks from April thru October and in those events, The GT8 class entries have been as large as 1/10 touring or even 1/8th open. Some GT only events have 50+ entries, so how can you say they are dying?

My observations are only related to the Midwest Series and the One-Eighth Racers Club in Toledo. Most racers, especially new ones, don't plan on racing only at the big races. They are looking for club level events. Unfortunately, in my opinion, the lack of club level racing is one of the problems with 1/8th on-road. That hold the Byron Race is not even willing to hold a MWS Race this year, even though they are in the heart of the region. I don't even see races scheduled there for on-road....

I agree the GT8 cars could cost less, have a spec engine and even spec tires but that has not happened yet. I love how my 909 works on my MRX4x, but I like the looks of my McLaren on the GT8 car. And there are many spectators that can see and relate to the cars. Too bad the 911 is so hard to find, I also like the long wheel base Corvette and if we step back on all out speed in this class, the RTR kits could hang in there. I run a DM-1 that started that way.

There are certainly some decent looking bodies for the GT8's, but nobody uses them! I won't get into that subject anymore. except say that I think the way too many of the current RC bodies are just what the founders of the hobby warned us against-slot car bodies, not very realistic at all. I like VTA and F1, for example.

So please don't kick the GT8 cars to the curb there seems to be racers in all parts of the country that are running this class. New manufacture in Serpent and a new car from OFNA (well really a Team C car) but a new car.

Sorry to step on all you GT8 guys toes! That was not my intention at all. I wanted to discuss a simpler, less expensive alternative for 1/8 on-road racing. Someone else brought up the GT8 type cars. I should have ignored the comments as off topic.


My 2 cents, Mark Wernimont
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