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Old 05-02-2012, 12:03 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by CurveTracer View Post
The wheelbase maximum should be 380mm, this is the wheel base of the Ofna DM1 car.
Thank you i only had a couple of buggies my gtp and gtp2e to measure up as well as looking at roars 1/8 buggy wheelbase rules
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Old 05-02-2012, 12:10 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by CurveTracer View Post
The wheelbase maximum should be 380mm, this is the wheel base of the Ofna DM1 car.
wow that would make for almost a 4 inch spread
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Old 05-02-2012, 01:43 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by mikemyers View Post
Are there any existing rules I'm not aware of? Do we have anything specified for the following? I'll put your numbers in for now, but I'd much rather be copying rules that already exist, than creating new ones. Maybe Jeff and someone from the new board can suggest the dimensions that are already being used, or are the numbers below already correct?

If current cars and parts exceed the following dimensions, the dimensions should be changed to reflect what people are already doing.


specifications: car length, maximum: 610 mm
specifications: car width, maximum: 330 mm
specifications: car height, maximum (suspension fully compressed)
All three lengths have been racing fine for years, inclusive & no problems.
380 mm = 14.9606”
360 mm = 14.1732”
325 mm = 12.7952”

"suspension fully compressed"
Not inclusive, some bodies are different heights, even tall like Taxi Cabs, lol

"specifications: car length, maximum: 610 mm"
A bunch of the IGT2 and DM1 bodies are 24"+ long, 610 mm = 24.0157" too short, not inclusive.
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Old 05-02-2012, 09:04 AM   #49
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If I understand you guys correctly, is the following what you're suggesting? If not, what needs to be changed, added, moved, or deleted?




(Use additional rules from second section for "spec/controlled" racing)

=================================================
RULES FOR OPEN 1/8 GT CLASS
specifications: shaft driven, no belts
specifications: standard gear diffs only
specifications: car length, maximum: 25 inches
specifications: car width, maximum: 13 inches
specifications: wheelbase: minimum 12 inches
specifications: wheelbase: maximum 15 inches
specifications: fuel capacity: 150cc maximum
specifications: weight: minimum weight 3500 grams
specifications: fuel nitro content: open

body: any commercially available GT style body (not Lola style bodies)
body: rear of body can not be completely cut out (needs to specify how much)
body: rear windows can be completely cut out
body: side front windows can be completely cut out.
body: The engine’s cooling head fins can not be exposed from top or sides of body.
body: front winshield cutout - 70mm maximum
body: wings and spoilers: allowed

tires: any commercially available rubber tires (no foam tires)
tires: must fit completely under the car body (no add-on wheel flares)
tires: any tire insert

engine: any .28 or smaller style engine
engine: any carb
engine: intake port size - open
engine: must be commercially available
engine: any exhaust pipe,
engine: any stinger diameter
engine: Offroad style non-adjustable 2, 3, or 4 shoe clutch (no axial clutches)
engine: INS box intake silencer required

Electronics: No electronic stability control allowed
Electronics: No electronic aids (D-Box, etc.)

electric class speed control - use existing ROAR rules
electric class: battery - use existing ROAR rules





=================================================
ADDITIONAL SPEC RULES (select as desired)
specifications: only 'kickup' chassis allowed
specifications: only 'flat' chassis allowed
specifications: 1/7 scale also allowed?
specifications: Fuel nitro content maximum _________
specifications: car height, maximum (suspension fully compressed) __________

body: wings built for the body,
body: wings must be attached to body,
body: no buggy style wings

tires: tire width limited to __________
tires: disallowed - liquid traction additives or rubber enhancment chemicals

engine: must be available from mail order shops for under $ __________ w/o tax
engine: maximum engine ports __________.
engine: only stock carb allowed
engine: maximum intake diameter ___________


Track, club, or series can specify any of the following:
fuel
car
tire
engine
battery
motor
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Old 05-02-2012, 09:41 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemyers View Post
If I understand you guys correctly, is the following what you're suggesting? If not, what needs to be changed, added, moved, or deleted?




(Use additional rules from second section for "spec/controlled" racing)

=================================================
RULES FOR OPEN 1/8 GT CLASS
specifications: shaft driven, no belts
specifications: standard gear diffs only
specifications: car length, maximum: 25 inches
specifications: car width, maximum: 13 inches
specifications: wheelbase: minimum 12 inches
specifications: wheelbase: maximum 15 inches
specifications: fuel capacity: 150cc maximum
specifications: weight: minimum weight 3500 grams
specifications: fuel nitro content: open

body: any commercially available GT style body (not Lola style bodies)
body: rear of body can not be completely cut out (needs to specify how much)
body: rear windows can be completely cut out
body: side front windows can be completely cut out.
body: The engine’s cooling head fins can not be exposed from top or sides of body.
body: front winshield cutout - 70mm maximum
body: wings and spoilers: allowed

tires: any commercially available rubber tires (no foam tires)
tires: must fit completely under the car body (no add-on wheel flares)
tires: any tire insert

engine: any .28 or smaller style engine
engine: any carb
engine: intake port size - open
engine: must be commercially available
engine: any exhaust pipe,
engine: any stinger diameter
engine: Offroad style non-adjustable 2, 3, or 4 shoe clutch (no axial clutches)
engine: INS box intake silencer required

Electronics: No electronic stability control allowed
Electronics: No electronic aids (D-Box, etc.)

electric class speed control - use existing ROAR rules
electric class: battery - use existing ROAR rules





=================================================
ADDITIONAL SPEC RULES (select as desired)
specifications: only 'kickup' chassis allowed
specifications: only 'flat' chassis allowed
specifications: 1/7 scale also allowed?
specifications: Fuel nitro content maximum _________
specifications: car height, maximum (suspension fully compressed) __________

body: wings built for the body,
body: wings must be attached to body,
body: no buggy style wings
should be in the upper half


tires: tire width limited to __________
tires: disallowed - liquid traction additives or rubber enhancment chemicals

engine: must be available from mail order shops for under $ __________ w/o tax
engine: maximum engine ports __________.
engine: only stock carb allowed
engine: maximum intake diameter ___________


Track, club, or series can specify any of the following:
fuel
car
tire
engine
battery
motor
Other than that it looks good the wheel base spec automatically allows the 1/7 chassis in (dm1)
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Old 05-02-2012, 08:04 PM   #51
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I'll make those changes.

Quick question - you're saying that with the above specs, that 1/7 is already included in the basic numbers we have? If so, I'll change the wording for the "spec" rules to allow people to "disallow" it, rather than to "allow" it.

Thanx!
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Old 05-02-2012, 09:56 PM   #52
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Both the Kyosho Inferno GT1 which has the 330mm wheelbase and the Inferno GT2 which has a 360mm wheelbase are marketed as 1/8 scale. Will one be allowed as "Spec" and the other optionally "disallowed"?

There are three wheelbase options, with cars that meet all of the drivetrain requirements. Why not allow all of them in the GT class?
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Old 05-02-2012, 10:00 PM   #53
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After reading a few emails and posts, I've got one thing I'd like to add here.

If/when the above list is complete, people from any "group" will be able to combine the basic rules from the top listing, with whatever special rules they want from the bottom listing, and come up with a set of "spec" rules for their group. Or, they could ignore the bottom list and have an open class.

This should apply to all the current groups, and even new ones that might be created:
Texas Rules
MWS Rules
Ipanema (open)
Ipanema (spec)
GT8
and eventually....
ROAR
IFMAR

From my point of view (I don't race these cars yet) most everyone here agrees on most of the rules. Most of the basic rules seem to be universally accepted by everyone running these cars. There are only a very few "spec" rules that would make a difference for how to prepare a car for any class of racing at any track.


There isn't really any reason for any more infighting, and all the hard feelings that scare people away. Each group can and should be able to run with whatever rules they prefer to run under. It's nobody else's business.

Actually, it seems to me like things are more peaceful over the past week than I remember from before. I hope it stays like this!!!!
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Old 05-03-2012, 09:02 AM   #54
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Regarding the issue of "adjustable" clutches, I have some questions and comments...

Exactly what does "adjustable" mean?

It has been stated that one can change springs, shoes, and even modify the weight of the shoes (shaving), etc. but that "mechanical" adjustments are not allowed.

From this we can draw the conclusion...

The ability to "tune" the clutch engagement to a drivers individual car and track conditions is clearly desirable (as opposed to an exact "Spec" clutch setup with exactly prescribed springs, shoes, flywheel, bell etc. that cannot be modified in any way).

So then what exactly does "adjustable" mean? After all, from the moment that you allow any "change" from a "spec" clutch you are really allowing "adjustment" regardless of what you call the "modification" or "change" and, as we have concluded, the ability to "alter" the characteristics of the clutch is clearly desirable.

It has been suggested that the meaning of "adjustable" is a "mechanical" adjustment. From this clarification and the acceptability of alterations and modifications to clutch components (i.e. shaving shoes) can it be concluded that a more clear rule would be:

***Changes that alter the "characteristics" of a clutch can be made without limitation as long as the change comes from a physical modification or the addition, removal or replacement of a component in the clutch but NOT a solely mechanical change.***

This seems to be the current state of explanation thus far...

We can then conclude the following....

The M2C adjustable flywheel, which can be "tuned", "adjusted", or whatever you want to call it, by adding or removing set screws from the flywheel, is LEGAL. Specifically it is legal because you are adding, removing or replacing a component to effect a "change".

The Fioroni "Vario" clutches are all ILLEGAL. This is because they posses a "mechanical" adjustment which allows you to change the "characteristics" (specifically the spring tension) without adding, removing, modifying or replacing a component.

The Buku clutch is ILLEGAL for the same reason.

However, if the Buku design were changed so that instead of turning an "adjustment" screw to effect the "change" you instead removed and replaced a "spring seat" to effect a change, then this version would be LEGAL.

So, a driver would have a box of tiny different (perhaps color coded) "spring seats" (sounds a lot like a box of different springs, gold, red, black, 30 degrees, 35 degrees, etc, doesn't it...) that they could swap out to "tune" their clutch to different track conditions. And of course because modification of components is allowed then a savvy driver would have these seats hand ground to length to give him exactly the levels of tension he was looking for in advance...

And this is better why?

And who is going to tech a rule like this? Someone running around trying to determine if a person is running a Vario clutch, or what version of Buku, the Original "Speed Tune" or the new "Quick Change GT Legal" version.

The simple reality is, the ability to make "Adjustments" or "tuning" or "alterations" or whatever you want to call it, to improve your performance on the track is a GOOD thing. If it wasn't clearly desirable then everyone would be demanding a "no modifications spec clutch".

Why then is the term "adjustable' being used at all? It reality, it has nothing to do with "adjustments", "adjust-ability, or "tuning"....

It has EVERYTHING to do with Centax or more specifically "Axial" style clutches. Obviously no one is interested in these "on-road" clutches being allowed. It's clear that they are the SOLE source of this issue in the first place. Unfortunately the term "adjustable' was initially used synonymously with "Centax" in the beginning of this discussion well before the range of currently used off-road clutches were considered.

Now later, after the term "adjustable" has been added to a proposed rule (for no real reason other then trying to clearly prohibit Centax or Axial clutches), it must be interpreted to be able to consistently and repeatably make a ruling on clutch legality in a practical manner by a wide range of potential techs and tracks. So we must stumble, case by case, through the VERY wide range of "completely legal for off-road racing" clutches that exist in the world.

Of course, we see all of the above issues arising, which seems to be the exact opposite of what everyone is looking for ... Simplicity and Clarity.

I would suggest that there is a very clear delineation that should be applied instead...

The simple prohibition on Axial (or Centax) style clutches, and/or the mandate that all clutches be Radial (to use a more accurate term). This completely clear and simple delineation could be easily identified and inspected, and is completely clear to understand. (Yes, I know the first question is going to be what about the Werks Power clutch?. The Werks clutch is clearly a "radial" clutch. The spring tension is on the axis but is irrelevant. The TORQUE DELIVERY comes from the shoes traveling out on the radius (hence "radial") and engaging the clutch bell just like every other "Off-Road" clutch.)

I submit this for consideration and, more importantly for the purposes of starting out with a rule that in the future can Practically be included in a Sanctioning Bodies rules, which a prohibition on "adjust-ability" could never be for now obvious reasons...

and, propose the simple rule.

Clutches: Axial (Centax) style clutches are prohibited.

(and if you wish to add: "Only Off-Road, Radial style clutches are allowed.")

Short of a rule like this one, the prohibition on "adjustable' clutches is in for a long, detailed and argument filled journey, which of course makes it that much more likely no one will pay attention to it anyway and I doubt that this is the goal of these discussion...
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Old 05-03-2012, 09:13 AM   #55
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How about adding this to the basic rules:

Clutches: radial clutches only, no axial (Centax style) clutches


After reading what you wrote, what's the difference between replacing parts with others, or adjusting using a screw? ...and who is going to check all that anyway?

Since from what I've read, the concern is to avoid the axial clutches (which are rather expensive, not to mention they can be more difficult for some people to adjust), what you wrote makes perfect sense to me.

If nobody objects, I'll add it to the above list later today.
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Last edited by mikemyers; 05-03-2012 at 08:09 PM.
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Old 05-03-2012, 10:45 AM   #56
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Mike, I think you mean to say:

Radial clutches only. No axial (centax type clutches).

Before someone missinterprets again.


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Old 05-03-2012, 08:10 PM   #57
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Havy, can I pretend it was a test, to see if anyone was paying attention?


(I guess not...... I'll have to blame it on my fingers, which sometimes have a mind of their own.....)

Thanks!!!!!!
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Old 05-04-2012, 01:15 PM   #58
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Default Revised simplified rules, as of May 4, 2012

After looking over the other discussions, this is getting quite a bit easier.

The first group below are basic rules that could be applied to any 1/8 GT Class including ROAR. Include additional rules as desired from the second section for "spec" racing


=================================================
RULES FOR 1/8 GT CLASS
specifications: shaft driven, no belts
specifications: standard gear diffs only
specifications: car length, maximum: 25 inches
specifications: car width, maximum: 13 inches
specifications: wheelbase: minimum 12 inches
specifications: wheelbase: maximum 15 inches
specifications: fuel capacity: 150cc maximum
specifications: weight: minimum weight 3500 grams
specifications: fuel nitro content: open

body: any commercially available GT style body (not Lola style bodies)
body: rear of body can not be cut out, but tail lights must remain
body: rear windows can be cut out
body: side front windows can be cut out.
body: engine’s cooling head fins can not be exposed from top or sides of body.
body: front winshield cutout - 70mm max
body: wings and spoilers: allowed
body: wings must be built for, and attached to the body,
body: no buggy style wings

tires: any commercially available rubber tires (no foam tires)
tires: must fit completely under the car body (no add-on wheel flares)
tires: any tire insert

engine: any .28 or smaller engine
engine: any carb
engine: intake port size - open
engine: must be commercially available
engine: any exhaust pipe,
engine: any stinger diameter
engine: radial clutches only, no axial (Centax style) clutches
engine: INS box intake silencer required

Electronics: No electronic stability control
Electronics: No electronic aids (D-Box, etc.)

electric class speed control - use existing ROAR rules
electric class: battery - use existing ROAR rules





=================================================
ADDITIONAL SPEC RULES
specifications: only 'kickup' chassis or only 'flat' chassis

tires: tire width maximum: ________
tires: traction additives or rubber enhancment chemicals not allowed

engine: available from most mail order shops for under $ ____ w/o tax
engine: max engine ports __________.
engine: max intake diameter ___________
engine: must use stock carb for that engine

spec rules: track, club, or series can require a spec fuel, car, tire, engine, battery, motor, etc.
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Old 05-08-2012, 08:02 AM   #59
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Hello from France,
and thx Mike for this debat about a very fast growing serie.

When we created the Gt/RallyGame serie five years ago, it was the answer to what we can do when Off Road an On Road championships are off?

And, firstable, what we can do that cost near nothing??

The idea is to take the chassis and the engine from the year's offroad season and to transform them into a Gt car.
Just buy a body, some hard oil and grease, a longer clutch bell....

But the tyres?? After testing some compounds, the soft were great but some transmissions (remember, a buggy with a season or more of OffRoad) and engine (remember some engines are over 20 liters!!!) blown!!!

So we decided to run with hard compound tyres. Not so much grip but a lot of fun for everybody.
With less grip, no worry about transmissions, old engines....

The racers paid 25€ for registering and a set of tyres for the raceday.
Tyres last over 3 hours and during the sunday race you drive around 1h30mn.

But year after year, you know racers are racers, and they began to buy some high downforce bodies (from Italian brands or, now, american brands...) because they want more grip. But, it cost more money because you need a body for technical track, another for big track.....

So, we decided to change the body rule. Now, you can only race on of the 6 registered bodies.
BMW DTM, Mercedes DTM, Porsche 911 Turbo, Lancia Delta GrpB, Peugeot 205 turbo 16 GrpB, Seat DTM.

And the choice is successfull because all racers and spectators love real bodies that can be seen in the street.

So, the combination between low grip tyres and nice bodies is the good choice for us.

With our rules, no limitation (ok, only the standard rules, no exotic ones!!) for the chassis and engine!!!
You can come with your old fashion buggy and your 20years or over 20liters engine, or you can come with the best GT / rallyGame Belt car with the latest 800$ engine...

Everybody can win. It's totally independant of your money.
You have some money to spend, no problem you're free! Buy what you want but you have not the certitude to win!!!

It's a totally different approach and, our serie is growing because you come with your "standart" package and you can win!!!

The first round of the 2012 serie was won by the Hobbytech STR8RG powered by a 3 ports Go engine (around 90€ !!). The pull starter was remove the week end before the race!!!



The 2012 serie winner drive the Hobao hyper9 GT modified with 2 years of offroad racing and the engine is a JP Racing 5ports Buggy (over 15liters off road racing). The body is the Lancia delta integrale!! A little bit high!!! and no problem, you can win....





Here's a very nice video from 2009; You can see our low grip tyres are quite good!!!

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8a63f_finale-a_news

And another video, with the electric serie!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=izjMm4YWvXs


I hope you understand what I'm saying.

Mike, feel free to "translate" into a good american language!!! I think you're on the same way of us

Regards,
Au revoir,
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Old 05-09-2012, 10:26 PM   #60
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No need to translate - your English is just fine at expressing what you mean.

My thoughts, etc., can be found here:
http://www.sgrid.com/forum/showthrea...ull=1#post8283
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