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Old 08-13-2012, 09:54 AM   #481
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Mark really not sure why you think roar got it "right"
Making a "list" of approved engines? what a JOKE


This thread had very positive input from many racers around the country and even nominated a GT8 National Series Board of Racers that agreed to help discuss and “vote” certain rules that had some question. The most discussed rule was engines which in the end was voted to leave the engine rule “open”

Seems roar could give a flying rat’s ass what the racers want.

I understand you cannot please everyone but this engine rule is SO FAR from the mark it’s laughable.

Hope people who run GT8 & voted this last president into roar see his incompetence as a leader. I hear he is a great person but his leading skills suck.

Best thing to hope for if this BS actually gets written for rules is most clubs will see how far off the mark these rules are and continue to run open as 75%of them do anyway.
Well, my reasoning for my statement is pretty simple.

But first, let me point out that I have raced at multiple locations this year with all differnt engine rules. I've seen great racing with $200 limits, $250 limits, $280 limits and bring what you want. but if I want an all out class, then I should just run my Mugen MRX and go play. I've also raced nitro for 25+ years saw the demise of the pan class, 2wd suspension class, start of the 235 class and then the touring cars ..... owned my own track ..... and raced full sized cars with in SCCA. (I've meet alot of people while racing, but not everyone who is on the threads)

What I think the GT8 class should be is a class to get some excitement in on road racing (our version of the Slash). When I heard about it, I purchased a car which I still have and race (DM-1 RTR). I liked the idea that an offroad car could be converted and run. Still think that has merrit, but few will ever build one, just easier to purchase. It has taken tire truing out of the equation, reduced the cost in not needing the arsenal of tires for either the touring class or 1/8 4wd open class. We also have more bodies similar or matches to real cars, so the hobbiest or even spectators are interested in watching the races and then maybe join the fun, much like VTA. Plus the cars are very tough, heck even I have had a hard time breaking the car, once the plastic hinge mount was changed to an aluminum one.

The Heart of America Series went to the $280 dollar amount and have had good running OS, Novarossi, Werks, RB, Axial ......... all running together. Some of the closest racing for the past few seasons and getting more racers interested. Best is when they know they don't have to feel as if they need to spend $500 just to be competitive (even though just as you pointed out) they probably don't.

So if I can tell someone who asks what it costs to get into this class and a RTR cost $450, that is a good thing. Yes they will need to buy better tires, but if you tune and work with the kit engine, you can get a season or two out of it as I did, then it is a good conversation. You should upgrade the radio system as your first purchase and plan to spend $200/$300 when you can. So your first season of racing with a new radio, fuel and tires should be well under $1000.

However when they ask my fellow racer who says that it is $600 for a car, $500 for the engine, $400 for the radio, $200 for servo's, $150 for 2 sets of tires, most are just not interested. Now a racer who has been running 1/10 Touring or 1/8 open, these numbers all look good. But since this a small group of racers and getting smaller every week, why are we trying to pull them over to the GT class.

I had proposed the engine amount be raised to $280, bassed on current engines. Others has proposed 3 ports, 5 ports and I had not really thought through how this could be used to generate a set of rules to which an engine mfg could build and meet a set of specs. So someone who see's a $180/$200 engine on the list could use that. If what I want is $300 then that is what I do. I would hope that none of the engines would be over that amount based on current costs, but we'll have to see the list.

So, if ROAR does as noted, and I have not seen the rules yet, it would give something simple to follow like they have done for the electric side. Same as the Midwest Series started with if I remember correctly. If there is a need for a trully open class, then add the class just like what was run in Ipanema races. So, yes I think it is right, (if they have quality engines on the list) to look at engine performance and not just a price point. Plus if the class gains interest, engine manufactures will build an engine that would be approved (or get a current one approved).



So that is why I think ROAR has this right.
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:24 AM   #482
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Thank you, Mark.
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:41 AM   #483
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I have two concerns about an engine list. One is the need for a knowledgeable tech person. and the other is that internal mods can make a different engine out of any of them. For simplicity, open is easy and why not.
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Old 08-13-2012, 11:15 AM   #484
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I have two concerns about an engine list. One is the need for a knowledgeable tech person. and the other is that internal mods can make a different engine out of any of them. For simplicity, open is easy and why not.
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Old 08-13-2012, 11:31 AM   #485
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Well ROAR, once again. Way to kill a class. All this leads to is cheating. Unless the person tech'ing the engines is knowledgeable about the engines.....this is ssooo pointless. There was such a good long discussion on the engine rules in this thread. Yet you chose to listen to none of the actual RACERS who RACE the class. So, it seems to me that every club is going to '86 this rule just like they do with so many other ROAR rules. This is very disappointing to me.

So if I go to a ROAR race now, are they going to spend a full day tech'ing everybody's engines, tearing them down to measure every port on the engine? Who is going to be the certified tech that knows each "approved" engine inside and out? What about the fact that most of the racers seal every engine to insure that you have an engine that runs and tunes consistently?

It's been proven time and time again that a cheap .28 geared to the moon will move a GT8 car just as fast as a 9 port .21 geared down. Let the racers decide what they want. The GT8 class was supposed to be the catch all class that anybody could get into onroad with. Whether you were racing 1/8 4WD on road cars already, (so you would have a 9 port .21 to put in your GT8 car), or if you were racing buggy/truggy/MT (so you would have a .28-.21 engine laying around). As long as you purchase a QUALITY engine, it's been proven that it's an even playing field with engines, because of the weight and chassis limitations.

So this will be like 1/10 sedan, lets limit the engines to make it fair and cheap. 3 port .12 engines. All that happened with that was that manufacturers started to make some seriously bad ass 3 port small blocks. So a competitive engine is still $300-$500.

Bravo ROAR, bravo....
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Old 08-13-2012, 11:33 AM   #486
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Default engine rules

Hey there guys, the engine rules seems to be a very hot topic lately, at the great lakes challenge race this year in toledo the question has come up and we decided on the engine price rule just as our midwest series rules are. Some people don't agree with this rule, but most of our local racers who have been racing the class agree with it. The way I see it is if you want to put 400+ motors in these cars, you are defeating the purpose of what the class started out with. I agree that when you are in the pits and a new commer comes up to you looking at your car and ask you questions about how to get into it, you scar them off with 500 for the motor, but if you were able to tell them that it is only 200-250 for a motor they are more than likely to come away with a feeling of I can get into that.
If you are going to a big GT race and there is enough sign ups to run an open class then so be it, but for most events such as the GLC and the midwest series there is not enough entrants to split classes, also when you attend an event each venue has its own set of rules that everyone has to abide by, so what ever those rules are you should just be prepared to follow them. I hope to see some more people this year at the GLC race, and if not have fun at whatever race you choose to go to, and lets not kill this class off like so many other classes have been killed.
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Old 08-13-2012, 11:33 AM   #487
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Default Open motor! approved lists will just promote cheating

I hate to say it but people will buy an "approved" motor then have it modded...It will be very hard to find someone that has the knowledge and time to try to tech all the motors. The added tech time..arguments of people claiming cheating etc. etc. To me this issue is much harder to deal with, that just going open motor and separating drivers by skill

Open engine would be easier.......but does make it hard for newer guys coming in. I think its alot easier to solve the second problem.... add a "sportsman" style class, for the new guys coming in. It gives a less competitive environment so they can focus on their driving then "motor up" or bump up when they are on pace. That is what my track did and it helped me tremendously....I tried to jump in to the open class and got killed, and just disrupted the more skilled drivers....I went into the sportsmans class and after a few weeks moved right up into the "open" class and have been doing well.
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Old 08-13-2012, 11:47 AM   #488
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I hate to say it but people will buy an "approved" motor then have it modded...It will be very hard to find someone that has the knowledge and time to try to tech all the motors. The added tech time..arguments of people claiming cheating etc. etc. To me this issue is much harder to deal with, that just going open motor and separating drivers by skill

Open engine would be easier.......but does make it hard for newer guys coming in. I think its alot easier to solve the second problem.... add a "sportsman" style class, for the new guys coming in. It gives a less competitive environment so they can focus on their driving then "motor up" or bump up when they are on pace. That is what my track did and it helped me tremendously....I tried to jump in to the open class and got killed, and just disrupted the more skilled drivers....I went into the sportsmans class and after a few weeks moved right up into the "open" class and have been doing well.
I understand what most are saying but I think that when you say open engine in this class you will start to soon see it dye. Part of the appeal with this class initially was running realistic bodies and racing with position changes and all of the fun things about racing, not just womping on the next guy with no real experience. At most tracks lets face it, there are not enough people to split classes into advanced and novice, it will get sorted out in the mains anyway. I just think that open engines is just for the guys who want to do it there own way, and while there is nothing really wrong with that I think you should remember what the class was created for and if you want to go super fast than race regular 1/8th scale 4wd the ultimate in rc racing.
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Old 08-13-2012, 01:34 PM   #489
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Does anyone have a list of cars that are legal for this class? Please post thanks
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Old 08-13-2012, 02:18 PM   #490
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Does anyone have a list of cars that are legal for this class? Please post thanks
Any GT specific chassis/buggy based car, shaft driven.

So any 1/8 buggy conversion.

Kyosho Inferno GT1/GT2
Ofna DM1/DM1 Spec, GTP, Hyper 1/7
Team C GT8/GT8L
Serpent Cobra GT
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Old 08-13-2012, 02:47 PM   #491
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I understand what most are saying but I think that when you say open engine in this class you will start to soon see it dye. Part of the appeal with this class initially was running realistic bodies and racing with position changes and all of the fun things about racing, not just womping on the next guy with no real experience. At most tracks lets face it, there are not enough people to split classes into advanced and novice, it will get sorted out in the mains anyway. I just think that open engines is just for the guys who want to do it there own way, and while there is nothing really wrong with that I think you should remember what the class was created for and if you want to go super fast than race regular 1/8th scale 4wd the ultimate in rc racing.
I understand they are trying to make it a level playing field....and keep to the roots of the class

But I have seen too often when they spec something someone will always try to be dishonest and beat the system.....The few tracks I have ran on, big horsepower usually doest help...the car either cant keep traction or the driver just cant handle the speed. And with longer mains big horespower usually comes with a big appetite and run times come into play.

I just hate the hassle of teching and accusations of cheating that seem to come along with most "spec" class races. I have already seen a "spec" GT race that had a dollar limit and a few racers purchased a legal motor and had them modded and tried to hide it. I am just afraid that will become the norm....whats worse the guy with the most money having the advantage and everyone knows it...or the guys who cheats having the advantage and no one knows?
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Old 08-13-2012, 03:03 PM   #492
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I understand they are trying to make it a level playing field....and keep to the roots of the class

But I have seen too often when they spec something someone will always try to be dishonest and beat the system.....The few tracks I have ran on, big horsepower usually doest help...the car either cant keep traction or the driver just cant handle the speed. And with longer mains big horespower usually comes with a big appetite and run times come into play.

I just hate the hassle of teching and accusations of cheating that seem to come along with most "spec" class races. I have already seen a "spec" GT race that had a dollar limit and a few racers purchased a legal motor and had them modded and tried to hide it. I am just afraid that will become the norm....whats worse the guy with the most money having the advantage and everyone knows it...or the guys who cheats having the advantage and no one knows?
+1
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Old 08-13-2012, 03:12 PM   #493
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I just hate the hassle of teching and accusations of cheating that seem to come along with most "spec" class races. I have already seen a "spec" GT race that had a dollar limit and a few racers purchased a legal motor and had them modded and tried to hide it. I am just afraid that will become the norm....whats worse the guy with the most money having the advantage and everyone knows it...or the guys who cheats having the advantage and no one knows?

Then add a "claim" rule.
If you suspect someone of cheating- buy their motor from them, at fair market value. That way it will solve the cheating accusations. If they refuse to sell it, then it shouldn't be used anymore for the remainder of the race, because you think they are cheating. Next step would be to tech the motor.
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Old 08-13-2012, 03:27 PM   #494
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I just hope this class continues to grow.... the GT has been around my area for quite a while and this year it seems to have really gained momentum.

I hope we all can "man up" wether we like the rules or not and just keep the class growing...there is already so much working against our hobby the last thing we need to do it work against each other and ourselves.


But my vote is still "OPEN MOTOR" any .21 thru .28 onroad or offroad motor and is someone really wants to run a thirsty .30 have at it baby!
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Old 08-13-2012, 05:04 PM   #495
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Any GT specific chassis/buggy based car, shaft driven.

So any 1/8 buggy conversion.

Kyosho Inferno GT1/GT2
Ofna DM1/DM1 Spec, GTP, Hyper 1/7
Team C GT8/GT8L
Serpent Cobra GT
thanks, so my mbx6 will be fine for any race
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