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Old 07-07-2012, 12:22 PM   #466
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Originally Posted by *1speedy View Post
Not sure why you are glad about the so called ruling, your Picco P9 .21 will be ILLEGAL.

I am sure you know this but imo Clutch questions will never end, Power, heat, traction & the bionic finger all have a lot to do with how they grab and wear in any given situation so I would just look to see what the “fast guys” are running and adapt. They all work; I run 3 shoe Alum some times 1 carbon. Sorry I did not answer your clutch question as you asked maybe someone else can answer better.

Still AMAZED we had a committee and CLEARLY Voted OPEN Engines and the ruling that has come down is open off road engines only? I without any doubt saw this class getting it in the azz I just didn’t expect this much vasoline.

THE ENGINE RULE IS BS.
I dunno, but either way, I'm buying what I want

But full open is going to be the best way to make this class accessible to more racers.

I know you've ran all sorts of engines Jersey. I've seen the IDM .21, Bonito, and Roma in that Xray GT of yours. Whats been your favorite? Why? What have you found with running on road vs off road engines?
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Old 07-07-2012, 12:31 PM   #467
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Glad to hear about the ruling. Already got the Picco P9 .21 set up and it runs good. I'm surprised that it has plenty enough torque to pull the extra weight of a buggy chassis.

About clutches again....

All aluminum?
All Teflon?
or
Two aluminum and one Teflon shoe?

Can someone explain what the performance differences is between those three?

Thanks.
Aluminum Clutch shoes grab with little slip when they engage. So the reaction is quicker. When you mix Al with "carbon" it allows a little slip before total lock up so it is easier to drive. So the more carbon or plastic as some call them the more slip. It is the same idea with the different materials, each provides a different amount of "grab".

This is also different is you change the springs. the stiffer the spring the more RPM the engine has to get to before the spring lets the shoe engage. This can be altered by using lighter shoes, for example OFNA has around 4 different Al shoes, the difference is their weight. Again this is to have different options when it comes to clutch engagement. Al material has to do with this.
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Old 07-07-2012, 12:36 PM   #468
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Aluminum Clutch shoes grab with little slip when they engage. So the reaction is quicker. When you mix Al with "carbon" it allows a little slip before total lock up so it is easier to drive. So the more carbon or plastic as some call them the more slip. It is the same idea with the different materials, each provides a different amount of "grab".

This is also different is you change the springs. the stiffer the spring the more RPM the engine has to get to before the spring lets the shoe engage. This can be altered by using lighter shoes, for example OFNA has around 4 different Al shoes, the difference is their weight. Again this is to have different options when it comes to clutch engagement. Al material has to do with this.
Interesting. So when you run 2 alloy and 1 composite, would you run the same springs on them?
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Old 07-07-2012, 01:00 PM   #469
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I dunno, but either way, I'm buying what I want

But full open is going to be the best way to make this class accessible to more racers.

I know you've ran all sorts of engines Jersey. I've seen the IDM .21, Bonito, and Roma in that Xray GT of yours. Whats been your favorite? Why? What have you found with running on road vs off road engines?

I have well let’s just say a healthy assortment of engines off road and on road and they all work well with regards to the right situation, you have to strategize for the engine you run period.

The On road Engines generally don’t have the torque so I need to gear down that means less run time because of the big RPMS from the result of gearing down but I generally get the performance I want but still generally lack some where.

Some off road engines I have are the opposite they have big torque so I have to gear high to find the “sweet spot” but it’s always a trade off of raw straight away speed or infield torque or just fuel time its always a trade off of sorts I just prefer it to be my choice of what to trade off to suit our driving style.

Just so sick of people being so biased because they don’t have an on road engine and these same peeps pointing the finger saying on road engines have a monster advantage. That’s BS

Been to more than 1 race where off-road engines have beat on road engines.
Whatever happened to it’s about setup, bionic finger tires & strategy???

I hate these politics

Last 3 races I went to all had rally, off road and on road engines and all 3 engines were in top 5 every time.

I really don’t have a favorite but I will admit the IDM I have has a top end note like a Ferrari, my favorite is the one that works the best that day


Guess I will share how I really feel


THE ENGINE RULE IS BS


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Old 07-07-2012, 01:21 PM   #470
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I have well let’s just say a healthy assortment of engines off road and on road and they all work well with regards to the right situation, you have to strategize for the engine you run period.

The On road Engines generally don’t have the torque so I need to gear down that means less run time because of the big RPMS from the result of gearing down but I generally get the performance I want but still generally lack some where.

Some off road engines I have are the opposite they have big torque so I have to gear high to find the “sweet spot” but it’s always a trade off of raw straight away speed or infield torque or just fuel time its always a trade off of sorts I just prefer it to be my choice of what to trade off to suit our driving style.

Just so sick of people being so biased because they don’t have an on road engine and these same peeps pointing the finger saying on road engines have a monster advantage. That’s BS

Been to more than 1 race where off-road engines have beat on road engines.
Whatever happened to it’s about setup, bionic finger tires & strategy???

I hate these politics

Last 3 races I went to all had rally, off road and on road engines and all 3 engines were in top 5 every time.

I really don’t have a favorite but I will admit the IDM I have has a top end note like a Ferrari, my favorite is the one that works the best that day


Guess I will share how I really feel


THE ENGINE RULE IS BS


,

I'm right there with ya. I've tried 28's, 24's, 25's, multiple 21's, but never an on road 21. So that is next on my engine list. Plus you can't beat the sound of an on road 21 ripping through 2nd gear, that's enough of a selling point for me.
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Old 07-07-2012, 04:01 PM   #471
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Interesting. So when you run 2 alloy and 1 composite, would you run the same springs on them?
I do it that way all of the time. If the track is slick this is a way to tame the motor a bit. I haven't tried using different springs with a mix of shoes. I have the Cobra now so I have to try their 4 shoe system with the full carbon and then try all the combinations available. This configuration looks great.
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Old 07-31-2012, 02:45 AM   #472
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is there a particular reason why the 1/8 GTs don't use the centax clutch??
thanks
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Old 07-31-2012, 06:00 AM   #473
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Yup, as a group we HATE them....

OK, possibly not but it IS an expense that a lot of us don't want PLUS somewhat of a 'black art' to be able to get full potential out of them.

The majority of the people running these cars have also run off road at some point and appreciate the simplicity and reliability of 3 & 4 shoe clutches along with the ability to tune the clutch to match the situation on the track!
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Old 07-31-2012, 10:46 AM   #474
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I tried the Centax style clutch on my GT and it was very difficult to get it working with the car being heavy. Went back to a 3 shoe and dialed it with shoe and spring. Much easier to find the fix.
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Old 07-31-2012, 02:42 PM   #475
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Old 08-10-2012, 09:47 AM   #476
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Looks like ROAR is close to having the GT8 rules done. This was posted by Steve Pond, ROAR President on the ROAR Forums to Jim Rice who runs the Winter Nationals race in Florida:

Jim, I can get you the rules with the exception of the engine specifications, and the engines that are approved. That's the the last part, and the most detailed, that still needs to be completed. The dollar figure has been remotely effective, but it excludes higher quality engines that would also qualify performance-wise. We're looking to have a level playing field as far as performance, and the dollar figure isn't the proper solution. The engine rule will ultimately have set specifications, and the approved engines will be listed in the forum, with all the internals photographed in detail so anyone can log in at any time and know what the internals should look like, in the event there's any dispute. This is the part of the rules that's not finished yet, but I think I can get you the rest of the rules within this week. I'm going to be at the electric nats, so time may run short, but I'm pushing to have them ready for you.

I have to say, I think ROAR got this one RIGHT ..........
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Old 08-12-2012, 07:48 PM   #477
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So let's see, (paraphrasing) "most guys have an offroad background and Centax style clutches are too hard to set up... most guys do not run an onroad motor..."

This is a regressive concept and will not succeed for the betterment of the class in the long run. It has been tried in many classes before and has never worked.

You can buy a good onrad motor on RC Tech for approx. $100. I have done it several times. Recently I bought a Novarossi tined Kangaroo .21 for $100 and a Novatrossi tuned Flash .21 for $200. You can't get much better than that. Also, Centax style clutches are easy to set up and once set up are easy to maintain. It sounds to me like some people are not very innovative thinkers and only want to race what they have or are familiar with.
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Old 08-12-2012, 09:36 PM   #478
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Originally Posted by Grenade10 View Post
Looks like ROAR is close to having the GT8 rules done. This was posted by Steve Pond, ROAR President on the ROAR Forums to Jim Rice who runs the Winter Nationals race in Florida:

Jim, I can get you the rules with the exception of the engine specifications, and the engines that are approved. That's the the last part, and the most detailed, that still needs to be completed. The dollar figure has been remotely effective, but it excludes higher quality engines that would also qualify performance-wise. We're looking to have a level playing field as far as performance, and the dollar figure isn't the proper solution. The engine rule will ultimately have set specifications, and the approved engines will be listed in the forum, with all the internals photographed in detail so anyone can log in at any time and know what the internals should look like, in the event there's any dispute. This is the part of the rules that's not finished yet, but I think I can get you the rest of the rules within this week. I'm going to be at the electric nats, so time may run short, but I'm pushing to have them ready for you.

I have to say, I think ROAR got this one RIGHT ..........

Mark really not sure why you think roar got it "right"
Making a "list" of approved engines? what a JOKE


This thread had very positive input from many racers around the country and even nominated a GT8 National Series Board of Racers that agreed to help discuss and “vote” certain rules that had some question. The most discussed rule was engines which in the end was voted to leave the engine rule “open”

Seems roar could give a flying rat’s ass what the racers want.

I understand you cannot please everyone but this engine rule is SO FAR from the mark it’s laughable.

Hope people who run GT8 & voted this last president into roar see his incompetence as a leader. I hear he is a great person but his leading skills suck.

Best thing to hope for if this BS actually gets written for rules is most clubs will see how far off the mark these rules are and continue to run open as 75%of them do anyway.
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Old 08-13-2012, 06:27 AM   #479
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Originally Posted by aft53 View Post
So let's see, (paraphrasing) "most guys have an offroad background and Centax style clutches are too hard to set up... most guys do not run an onroad motor..."

This is a regressive concept and will not succeed for the betterment of the class in the long run. It has been tried in many classes before and has never worked.

You can buy a good onrad motor on RC Tech for approx. $100. I have done it several times. Recently I bought a Novarossi tined Kangaroo .21 for $100 and a Novatrossi tuned Flash .21 for $200. You can't get much better than that. Also, Centax style clutches are easy to set up and once set up are easy to maintain. It sounds to me like some people are not very innovative thinkers and only want to race what they have or are familiar with.
Well, first and foremost I'd like to again post WHAT I said, not the 'paraphrased' version but what I really said:

Yup, as a group we HATE them....

OK, possibly not but it IS an expense that a lot of us don't want PLUS somewhat of a 'black art' to be able to get full potential out of them.

The majority of the people running these cars have also run off road at some point and appreciate the simplicity and reliability of 3 & 4 shoe clutches along with the ability to tune the clutch to match the situation on the track!

and it may very well be from 'aft's' frame of reference that a centex is a kind and gentle performance enhancing product BUT from MY experience - which is as an observer only - I watched one of the Midwest's more experienced racers (yes, even has an off road background) struggle last season to get over 10 minutes from a centex clutch. AND, he was being coached by a multiple time regional champion. No lack of experience with these two guys and as I said (posibly more politely previously) I don't believe that centex clutches belong in IGT - period. That is MY opinion and I believe that it is shared by quite a few who have experience with or around them.

I suppose that this 'debate' might not even matter IF various parts of the country just do what they want anyway but I thought that the purpose of asking ROAR to create a ruleset for the class was to provide uniformity; not come up with rules that everyone 'loves'.....
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:31 AM   #480
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Well, first and foremost I'd like to again post WHAT I said, not the 'paraphrased' version but what I really said:

Yup, as a group we HATE them....

OK, possibly not but it IS an expense that a lot of us don't want PLUS somewhat of a 'black art' to be able to get full potential out of them.

The majority of the people running these cars have also run off road at some point and appreciate the simplicity and reliability of 3 & 4 shoe clutches along with the ability to tune the clutch to match the situation on the track!

and it may very well be from 'aft's' frame of reference that a centex is a kind and gentle performance enhancing product BUT from MY experience - which is as an observer only - I watched one of the Midwest's more experienced racers (yes, even has an off road background) struggle last season to get over 10 minutes from a centex clutch. AND, he was being coached by a multiple time regional champion. No lack of experience with these two guys and as I said (posibly more politely previously) I don't believe that centex clutches belong in IGT - period. That is MY opinion and I believe that it is shared by quite a few who have experience with or around them.

I suppose that this 'debate' might not even matter IF various parts of the country just do what they want anyway but I thought that the purpose of asking ROAR to create a ruleset for the class was to provide uniformity; not come up with rules that everyone 'loves'.....
I'm not a professional, just a 15 year old and I can build a centax clutch and adjust it easily. Anyone having trouble should watch this video. It's all about experimenting. I can also build a buggy clutch too and adjust that as well. So I'm not specialized in on road only.

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
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