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Old 02-15-2012, 11:12 AM   #1
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Default SYNTHETIC OR MINERAL

to all the rc expert,i need some information regarding about nitro fuel,hopefully somebody can help.
my quention is:
1)synthetic based or mineral based will provide better engine protection.
a)rust prevention
b)heat resistant
2)which one will give better performance.
3)which one will give easier engine tunning.

thanks in advance
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Old 02-15-2012, 02:43 PM   #2
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A lot of the so called experts in the fuel biz disagree with me on this but IMO, 1/8th onroad on big tracks requires at least 6% castor oil (plus some synth to get a total oil % of 7-10) if you want your motors to last a long time. Unfortunately most fuels these days are geared more to offroad and shorter track onroad so they have gone with less or even no castor. These fuels are great in most applications but the sustained high rpm, lean settings and high internal temps of big track onroad need that castor.

My ideal fuel would be 7% castor, 2% synth if I'm paying for the motors. 6% and 1 or 2% if they are free
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Old 02-15-2012, 03:02 PM   #3
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My ideal fuel would be 7% castor, 2% synth if I'm paying for the motors. 6% and 1 or 2% if they are free
This fuel exists, Orcan fuel is made like this.

And I fully agree, a high amount of castor and a small amount of synthetic. Gives performance and engine life.
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Old 02-15-2012, 03:31 PM   #4
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I know that Xceedīs fuel should contain mineral oil, according to them. But I have not seen any mineral oil thatīs not nonpolar, so I don't see how they can get the mix to stay suspended...
Or is there any polar mineral oil out there?
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Old 02-16-2012, 12:55 AM   #5
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I believe synthetic makes less heat, more power/rpm, and leaves less residue everywhere, including within the engine (be that good or bad).

Probably is some corrosion inhibitors in synthetic, but from what I have read and been told, many fuel makers are now putting corrosion inhibitors in the fuel anyway as an extra.

While I know old school say more castor is better, I think very few fuels are going that way now, I believe it provides a better barrier to wear and loading, maybe, but it's a power reducer through drag and almost guarantees more unburnt content.

I think the most obvious give away to lack of castor in most current fuels, is just how little mess your wiping off your pipes and body now, and the residue that is there is light and easier to wipe away, while being barely tacky in feel.

My take on the effects in question...
Castor protected the bearings by coating them, synth likely no effect either way, but with the new additives it's either or in end effect.
Heat?, synth will surely run cooler just through less internal drag?.
Protection?, synth will likely lube better, castor more high end thermal protection, but then the castor will likely run hotter.
Tune and performance?, the synth should easily out perform in power and tuning I'd think, castor possibly more overlean protection though.


But then anything I think could quite likely be wrong, I often think it would take multiple industrial chemists and several degrees in something to know any of this for sure...
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Old 02-16-2012, 04:27 AM   #6
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The one oil isn't the other. For sure with synthetic oils there is a wide range specifications and quality to find.....

The problem with current fuels is that 10% or even 11% oil (which is safe) isn't used that much anymore because the manufacturers know with current engines they do not get the time of 5 minutes. Over the last years we see combinations of oils and also special oils like teflon based to keep the oil percentage down and the methanol high.
With these oils we have seen that the lubrication is less and there is less room to go on the lean side of the carb setting without damaging the engine.

But yes, castor based oils seems to give a better life to the enging but because it is much thicker it can be less effective on the performance, for sure in cold conditions. A mix of castor and synthetic is common used. I would never go for fuels with only a synthetic oil, most synthetic oils can take and hold water which is not good for a storage but also the lubrication seems to be less.
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Old 02-16-2012, 06:20 AM   #7
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Buy JP fuel, or runner time fuel. This fuel is very expensive compare to odonnell and tornado fuel. JP and runner time fuel have special blends that other fuel makers don't have, ...... Perhaps because costs prohibit.
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Old 02-16-2012, 09:26 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Roelof View Post
I would never go for fuels with only a synthetic oil, most synthetic oils can take and hold water which is not good for a storage but also the lubrication seems to be less.
yes,i agreed with you on this if 10 years ago,because last time most of the syn are ester based,but now out there are a lot of synthetic oil manufacturer,they produce ester based,P.A.O. based even can through the hydro-crack process produce syn from mineral oil.
but the thing i have to agreed is,do the nitro fuel blender they willing to spend higher cost to blend their product with better syn
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Old 02-16-2012, 11:46 AM   #9
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The main problem is that commercial fuelmakers do not tell what is inside. Sometimes you do see a change in color or have to re-tune the engine with a new can of fuel and still they say it is the same formula. I have seen this many times with Tornado, to much changes making the product good and bad.

For over 15 years I have mixed my own fuel and it was always the same and had a very good quality and performance. In the last 2 years I have driven Merlin Expert (it is the cheaper version of the Pro version and better) and RB fuel. I must say I do love RB but a news item on REDRC a while ago gives me doubts to use it again. Thay did change the mixture for a better performance and runtime, that does tell me enough....
I believe I will get Runnertime for the next season.
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Old 02-17-2012, 12:45 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roelof View Post
The main problem is that commercial fuelmakers do not tell what is inside. Sometimes you do see a change in color or have to re-tune the engine with a new can of fuel and still they say it is the same formula. I have seen this many times with Tornado, to much changes making the product good and bad.

For over 15 years I have mixed my own fuel and it was always the same and had a very good quality and performance. In the last 2 years I have driven Merlin Expert (it is the cheaper version of the Pro version and better) and RB fuel. I must say I do love RB but a news item on REDRC a while ago gives me doubts to use it again. Thay did change the mixture for a better performance and runtime, that does tell me enough....
I believe I will get Runnertime for the next season.
i used to use runner time exclusively in my engines approx 2 years ago. I never had a problem with consistency of fuel, i never had tune issues, i had good power and excellent engine life.

When the Runnertime distributer in Australia stoped brigning it in there was a massive gap in the Australian market and there was no good quality high end product available. Some Aussies might disagree with this, but quite frankly not much lives up to the runnertime mark.

I brought in a batch of Tornado after runnertime ceased being imported into Aus. It was a good fuel with great run time and it seemed quite consistent. The problem with Tornado was it didn't have the castor oil content of runnertime, so on high speed tracks with large straights it didn't provide sufficient long term protection to engines. People quickly began adding castor oil and it seemed to improve the strength of the protection during WOT.

A friend who races more often than me now places an extra 1% pure castor oil into the Tornado fuel for that extra level of protection. I believe the engines need it, and a large group of racers in Australia do the same i believe with a variety of brands of fuel. Ultimately the extra 1% castor improves idle during long races, and makes the tune more consistent, less flame outs and just a better overall performance of the engine.

I have purchased some RB fuel but i haven't used it enough to know if it is as good as Tornado or Runnertime. The one thing i noticed with RB fuel is there is significantly less smoke at the exit of a corner...but again i haven't used it enough to know for certain as i switched back to using runnertime at the last race i entered.

i will most probably add an extra 1% of castor to my RB fuel. it doesn't detrimentally affect performance and it improves high speed protection.
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Old 02-17-2012, 02:07 AM   #11
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If you are not sure about RB then try to get the offroad version. it contains that 1% more oil. But yes, I know even top sponsered drivers who do add a small amount of castor oil to their fuel to save the engines. It is sad that it is needed but it is also one of those "secrets" most people do not tell.
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Old 02-17-2012, 02:35 AM   #12
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Default Why not both?

When i used to race 1/8th Offroad, we used to run both 10% mineral, 10% synthetic, with 20% Nitro and my OS engine really revved. Everyone was waiting for my engine to pop as it got to the end of the straight, but it just kept on revving all day long! If i decide to get into Onroad I will be running both!
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Old 02-17-2012, 04:34 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS Motorsport View Post
This fuel exists, Orcan fuel is made like this.

And I fully agree, a high amount of castor and a small amount of synthetic. Gives performance and engine life.
It is true that castor oil should be present at certain % for different purpose of use (On or Off road), but the other important thing is the type of castor and synthetic oils.

That's what we do for many years now, since the % are more or less known...

Shortly there will be introduced 2 new fuel blends of TopRC Special Fuel, one for On-road and the other for Off-road. Both are for high end competition purpose.

For the On-road we further developed the already powerful Winner Xtreme formula with some changes to the lubricants (Winner XR), so now we have even more power with less fuel consumption and very good lubrication.

The Off-road blend we will introduce the new Ypsilon formula which will have new lubricants, so we could lower the oil % and get better fuel consumption and power, but with the same lubrication as before.
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Old 02-17-2012, 06:25 AM   #14
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It is true that castor oil should be present at certain % for different purpose of use (On or Off road), but the other important thing is the type of castor and synthetic oils.

That's what we do for many years now, since the % are more or less known...

Shortly there will be introduced 2 new fuel blends of TopRC Special Fuel, one for On-road and the other for Off-road. Both are for high end competition purpose.

For the On-road we further developed the already powerful Winner Xtreme formula with some changes to the lubricants (Winner XR), so now we have even more power with less fuel consumption and very good lubrication.

The Off-road blend we will introduce the new Ypsilon formula which will have new lubricants, so we could lower the oil % and get better fuel consumption and power, but with the same lubrication as before.
I do believe in future syn will replace the castor oil in certain percentage or 100% due to the performance,detergency,lubrication(improved formulation) and heat resistance.but price will increase.
Like engine oil,why we go for synthetic? Because we want the performance and protection,or maybe i'm wrong
Can somebody tell?
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Old 02-17-2012, 08:17 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roelof View Post
If you are not sure about RB then try to get the offroad version. it contains that 1% more oil. But yes, I know even top sponsered drivers who do add a small amount of castor oil to their fuel to save the engines. It is sad that it is needed but it is also one of those "secrets" most people do not tell.
problem is i run onroad tourer

I'm not sure if the distributor of RB fuels here in OZ imports the fuel from Europe or if they have the rights to the brand and make the fuel to spec here in Aus.

from memory Runnertime 16% nitro had a total of 10% oil. i think the breakdown was 7% synthetic and the rest was castor
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