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Old 11-25-2012, 05:45 AM   #421
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Originally Posted by MRX4XXXX View Post
Roelof, can I make a special order from your DIY-shop??

Specs:
- Tire truer option for a starter box
- 1/8 size
- Rotating all 4 tyres with some kind of rollers directly from the rubber surface. (tyres attached to the car all the time)
- U-shaped truing bits for all the 4 tyres to make the shape of the tyre correct
- Independently adlustable diameter for all the wheels
- some quide-rollers are propably needed to keep it straight during the truing operation
- 4 super vacuum cleaners sucking the dust away to keep the car internals clean before start
- It has to be fast, so that I will not be wasting too much the warm-up time

- The sports-version could be so that the car itself would rotate the wheels, but I'm worried about the clutch getting too much wear by using it that way.

==> Sure, the Capricorn is already making one, but without knowing the price, i know that I can not afford their version...

-X-
Simple... take a setup board and glue on some sandpaper. Start the car, hold it on the sandpaper and give some gas. Your engine will be warmed up and your tires trued.
But to be real, in the past I have seen starter boxes with an external shaft to fit tires to true them


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Originally Posted by stefan View Post
Daan, I don't know how it is in Holland, but I am pretty certain, that if you had a system where the single racer (and that means all ther racers, not just the top 30) could vote for or against rules, you would have seen a MUCH clearer result against tyre additives and for contol tyres.
Most of the drivere were against the control tire. I had a discussion with one of the EFRA top 30 guys, he had to much arguments that had no sense gainst the choice of the control tire. Things like a to large chosen tire size, not the tire shore he wants, not the brand he wants etc. All kind of things everyone has to deal with. The only legit argument is the setup knowledge of the guys already running the specific tire.

Regarding the Dutch national there is a lot discussed on a Dutch forum and even some people were in favor of the control tire but no proposal is made for the Dutch AGM. Most drivers do not like the tire treatment but they do accept it can not be controled (and with control I mean a 100% detection methode) and I trully believe at the end of the season most drivers were doing it.

The only complain from many toplevel drivers about tire treatment is the change in grip and driving when changing tires, the tires do become more different. Sadly they can not let it go with the changs others still are doing it.

But what we do see now is that some people want to raise a new class 1/8 racing. It must be a 40+ drivers entry with a maximun of 10 drivers (to fill/fit in the sunday), using a 5 ports engine and no tire additives based on a gentlemens agreement. Yeah.... right.... Those guys do realy think they can create this and keep it free from additives.....
Oh well, 16 december we will see.
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Old 11-25-2012, 06:02 AM   #422
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Stefan, now i agree with you on this. Regarding the saucing thing i am curious because its new on the nitro side for me. I have raced 12th scale and used the additives because everyone was doing it and the car was undriveble without it. I think with nitro it would be more or less a tuning thing.
What ar the downfalls with allowing additive you think? besides the cost.
Djiewie, I think we should not mix up electric cars on carpet with nitro cars.

When you try to run foam tyres on a new carpet, it is as you say, undriveable.
Why?
Electric cars do not lay down an oil / fuel film as nitro cars do. Carpet does not release oily substances like asphalt does, therefore, carpet will never build up and traction as asphalt does. Further, carpet is soaking up liquids to a certain extend, that's why it takes a bit to build a good groove on a new carpet track. Once it's saturated you need much less additive, right?

Nitro cars with foam tyres on the other hand work extremely well without additives, due to the above mentioned reasons. It has been done for decades and the nitro classes have gotten so fast (especially 8th scale)that a lot of people are complaining about it and governing bodies are looking for ways to slow them down a bit, because wear and tear is becoming immens.

Now, under these circumstances, what good could a tyre additive do?

Making them even faster? Increase tyre wear and wear on the car even more?

Making even faster engines necessary to use the increased grip.

As I said in my response to Blis, name me one thing that has gotten better since the use of tyre additives?
I have asked that question many times and usually don't get answer.

We are talking about the fastest classes in RC racing, where only a few can really go to the limit and then we are trying to push that limit even further.

We should also not try to compare tyre saucing as it is done in the electric classes with the saucing that is currently done in nitro racing.
In 12th scale you sauce your tyres 15-20 minutes before you run them, wipe them off and go.
Also, the available additves are pretty overseeable. When in doubt, use Paragon

Have you been following what happened in nitro racing this season?

Collari for example, had a dedicated tyre man at the EC-A in Portugal, that did nothing but prepare tyres for him.

Robert Pietsch used 4 sets of tyres in the final. Not because of wear, but to have the advantage of freshly sauced tyres, because the fell off pretty soon.
That's €100 for a regular racer, just to buy tyres for one final!!!!

Then you have all the applicators that are being used. The newest ones have light bulbs integrated, which het the tyres up to 80°C to get the additive deep enough into the tyres. They are sold at €300- 400.

Every week somebody is coming up with a new kind of additive and they are not cheap.

Now if everybody is doing this, nobody will have an advantage anymore. So, what ii it good for?

Take a look at what it takes to be competitive in nitro racing and than add the additive situation and tell me what that looks like for somebody who wnat to get into this hobby?

Of course, people who have been in the scene for god knows how long, will adapt and get the hang of it.

But what about the newcomers, which are scarse as it is?

Hope this makes sense.
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Old 11-25-2012, 07:43 AM   #423
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Stefan, it sure makes sence.
It would be nice if some tire manufacturer would step up and say.

Ill provide the series with tires and with someone selling them.

maybe when registrating for a race you can order the sets you need and have them payed in advance with someone at the race giving you the tires at raceday. If that does not happen than saucing will be done whether you want it or not. And i think no one wants it. but to have equal races everyone sould have the option i think.
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Old 11-25-2012, 07:59 AM   #424
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Originally Posted by stefan View Post
Daan, I don't know how it is in Holland, but I am pretty certain, that if you had a system where the single racer (and that means all ther racers, not just the top 30) could vote for or against rules, you would have seen a MUCH clearer result against tyre additives and for contol tyres.

What would you have done, if you had to decide?

Leave everything as it was, considering the demise of the EC's last year?
Most people I talked to, would have stayed away again next year if the rules wouldn't have changed.

We already have a run on the starting positions here, after the control tyre was announced.

I am really looking forward to the EC-B in Aigen-Schlägl.

I do buy tyres for less money than the regular racer, but I'm still glad that I don't have to worry about tyres for that race.

Usually I would bring at least two different brands to a EC to have the alternative. That means at least 20 sets each = 40 sets bought up front.
Than you needed to have different shores as well, which usually add another 10-15 pairs.

Now I go to the EC and I know that I only have to buy what I need and that we have a leveled playing field, since everybody runs the same.

I think it'll also be VERY interesting to see if there will be any considerable changes in the rankings.
As Roelof mentioned all the drivers were able to vote for the efra propositions before the efra meeting. The majority of the drivers were against an control tyre and preferred the situation like it was this year.
You really keep thinking everyone dislikes the additive, it's not the case, everyone dislikes unfair situations where there is a high possibility of cheating.


If I could decide everything I would like to go back in time and stop the whole additive thing from ever being invented, but that's something which simply isn't possible.
I truly believe the rules like we had during the 2012 season are the best alternative, they provide the most equal opportunities.

I don't think the reduced attendance the EC's was (completely) down to the additive.
The EC-B 1/10 was in Monaco, this is a track which shouldn't host an EC because the facilities aren't up to spec, you can get a better track surface at the local parking lot. Nobody likes going there.
The EC-A 1/10 had just over 100 drivers, same as 2011 and 2010.

The EC-A 1/8 was hosted in Portugal, always when a race is hosted in Spain or Portugal the attendance is low because nobody likes going there and there aren't a lot of local drivers. It's a long trip for everyone so also high traveling costs for everyone.

If you host a race in Germany, Austria, Italy and maybe France the attendance will be around 100 drivers because these countries have a healthy nitro scene and the distance to be traveled is reasonable for everyone.

Personally I only attend EC's which are held on tracks which I like.
This year I liked the EC-A track (Cassino, best track ever!) so I decided to attend the EC-A. Next year I will do the EC-B since it's held at the Gubbio, Italy track.

They will announce the mandatory tire brand for an event 2 months in advance. This basically leaves you with about 4 weeks to try a new brand (if it's different to the one you usually run). I personally think this is a very short time frame.
Plus everyone will try to get the same brand at the same time, while the brand chosen to supply the tires will need all if it's production capacity to produce the tires for the event. So you might not even be able to test the tires because they aren't available, but this is just speculation of course.

The tires you bought for an EC can't be used after the EC?. If you buy 40-50 sets for the EC and you still have a few left you will throw them away or don't take them back home and use them for practice/other races?.

When you have the mandatory tire, and it's different from the brand you run, you will end up with a lot of good, but useless sets. Because you will have to run a new set every round of practice, quali and final you will end up with around 18-20 still usable, but actually useless tires. There is no point taking them back home and practice on a brand you won't be running after the EC.

I'm also interested in the rankings, I think the drivers who normally run the mandatory brand of tires will bump up a few spots, they have an unfair advantage.
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Old 11-25-2012, 10:52 AM   #425
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In many places, open tyre treating will be the near end of nitro racing (or at best knock it down to a ghost class for a few years), people will shrug, and go buy an electric (saving a fortune in the process), it's almost as simple as nitro is hard enough already, without having to introduce something new.

Can you not dope when it's legal?, sure, but how can you realistically think that?, it's like saying hey, I want to get beaten for no good reason, it becomes dope or go home and surely most people know that?

There is just a random level here of some wanting to basically force everyone to do it, why?, I have actually seen some damn thin arguments on both sides in the past couple of years.
But seriously how do you look at multi compounds tyres, doping machines, multiple goops and methods to apply it, and say any of that is actually good for the sport?

And the way I see how people act and react, left out of nitro, the bulk of people will continue, force it in as being required to be competitive, and a lot will simply walk away, people look for excuses not to do nitro every day, make it harder and you give them yet another reason to walk.

Control tyres 'are' manageable, in an ideal world people would just not cheat, but most can see that is not happening, really with control tyres I can think of reasons it's not ideal, but some of the gripes against are super thin, if nothing else controlled tyres give that even playing field, which is perhaps why some look for thin reasons why they don't like it, many want a 'legal' advantage there, even if it is just the thought they could dope better than the next guy.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:12 PM   #426
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As a nitro 200mm racer who's just finished his first season.. If additives become legal ill bugger off and do 2wd electric buggy..
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Old 11-25-2012, 04:39 PM   #427
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I had a lengthy reply but deleted it.
I just want to say that if those caught while saucing tires were banned according to rules,then maybe we wouldn't reached this disastrous situation.
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Old 11-25-2012, 05:57 PM   #428
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I had a lengthy reply but deleted it.
I just want to say that if those caught while saucing tires were banned according to rules,then maybe we wouldn't reached this disastrous situation.
+1

I believe the punishment for saucing should be so grave that it discourages anyone else from from even thinking about using any type of tire additive. What ever happen to adhering to the rules!!!

Saucing sucks!!!!

Pass you soon...
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Old 11-25-2012, 07:48 PM   #429
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Originally Posted by djiewie View Post
Stefan, it sure makes sence.
It would be nice if some tire manufacturer would step up and say.

Ill provide the series with tires and with someone selling them.

maybe when registrating for a race you can order the sets you need and have them payed in advance with someone at the race giving you the tires at raceday. If that does not happen than saucing will be done whether you want it or not. And i think no one wants it. but to have equal races everyone sould have the option i think.
I think this is going to happen sooner than we all think.
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Old 11-26-2012, 01:54 AM   #430
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If you're caught using additive it should be a 1 year ban from all national races and your block too (Efra/roar/femca) etc..

And if you're caught in your returning year it should be a permanent ban from all competition racing, unless you pay a substantial fee/penalty to renew your licence.

You should be treat like a criminal
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Old 11-26-2012, 02:11 AM   #431
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If you host a race in Germany, Austria, Italy and maybe France the attendance will be around 100 drivers because these countries have a healthy nitro scene and the distance to be traveled is reasonable for everyone.
The 8th scale EC-B was very close to the German border in France, which in very central to the countries you listed. The turn out was very low and most of the people that didn't attend (like us) stayed home because of the additive situation.
I know that the EC-A's in both classes had much better numbers, but the EC-A 10th scale was in Italy, where people basically started this additive mess, so this is not surprising.

In my personal opinion, we should rather look at the "B-events".
This is where your average racer gets a chance to compete on an international level. If they stay home, that's a real indicator for what's going on. The EC-A drivers mostly do what they are told by their sponsors.

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They will announce the mandatory tire brand for an event 2 months in advance. This basically leaves you with about 4 weeks to try a new brand (if it's different to the one you usually run). I personally think this is a very short time frame.
Plus everyone will try to get the same brand at the same time, while the brand chosen to supply the tires will need all if it's production capacity to produce the tires for the event. So you might not even be able to test the tires because they aren't available, but this is just speculation of course.
I don't think this will be a problem. When EFRA will ask the manufacturers to put in their bit for a race, they will be aware of the amounts that'll be requested. Even if 100 racers need 500-600 sets of tyres, that's not really a biggie for the tyre manufacturers and the'll have time to prepare. If they think it's too big for them, they shouldn't put in a bit.

Further and more importantly, you are aware that there is only a VERY limited number of foam producers. Last time I checked it was 2 to 3.
All the tyre manufacturers buy their foam from these sources, therefore foam tyres are not really that different from each other.
Yes, the rime makes a difference and also the way that the rubber is glued to the rims.
But the biggest difference in the quality of foam tyres comes form the location of where the foam is taken from the sheet. The closer you get to the center of those foam sheets, the better the quality of the rubber is.

Unfortunately, that's the part, a regular racer will rarely get his hands on, because it's usually put aside for the top drivers.

So, I really think that 8 weeks is plenty of time to get aquainted to a different tyre brand.

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The tires you bought for an EC can't be used after the EC?. If you buy 40-50 sets for the EC and you still have a few left you will throw them away or don't take them back home and use them for practice/other races?.
No, of course not, and I personally don't have a problem with that, but the people who seem to be so desperately against a control tyre, always come up with the argument, that they'll have to shell out money for the control tyres up front, which they'll have to do anyways, so it's not valid!

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When you have the mandatory tire, and it's different from the brand you run, you will end up with a lot of good, but useless sets. Because you will have to run a new set every round of practice, quali and final you will end up with around 18-20 still usable, but actually useless tires. There is no point taking them back home and practice on a brand you won't be running after the EC.
As far as I know, the possibility to run a set of tyres twice is being discussed. It would mean that you'll have to return the tyres after your run and that they'll be kept in a marked bag for you until your next run.
This has been done at the EC-B in Hildesheim and it worked pretty well, so let's see what they'll decide.[/QUOTE]

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I'm also interested in the rankings, I think the drivers who normally run the mandatory brand of tires will bump up a few spots, they have an unfair advantage.
You seem to be REALLY concerned that you will be nowhere if you can't run your preferred tyres.
Do you really feel, that if you came to a EC and you'd have o run Matrix instead of Capricorn tyres and you have almost a week to get used to them, that you would be at a disadvantage?
Btw, who makes the Capricorn tyres??

How did they manage at the electric worlds in Hemsteede this summer? Control tyre and no additives!!
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Old 11-26-2012, 03:01 AM   #432
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I struggle to see the argument of it being too hard getting used to a new brand of tyre, or size, or whatever, not when people are arguing about traction compounds and getting used to whatever works wherever, and methods used there that would also likely differ from track to track.

It's all much of one or the other, arguments cut both ways, but what gives the most neutral starting point with less work?, surely a control tyre with nothing on it.

Electric drivers get it bad, control tyres changing from event to event, and having to work out what tyre dope works on top of that, we get a chance to limit that, if we can all work out a good method of delivery and control of said tyre, it's a big win win for drivers of all grades.
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Old 11-26-2012, 09:19 PM   #433
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Control tyres would be nice, I just hope that race organizers dont price gauge on the event tyres.
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:44 AM   #434
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I struggle to see the argument of it being too hard getting used to a new brand of tyre, or size, or whatever, not when people are arguing about traction compounds and getting used to whatever works wherever, and methods used there that would also likely differ from track to track.

It's all much of one or the other, arguments cut both ways, but what gives the most neutral starting point with less work?, surely a control tyre with nothing on it.

Electric drivers get it bad, control tyres changing from event to event, and having to work out what tyre dope works on top of that, we get a chance to limit that, if we can all work out a good method of delivery and control of said tyre, it's a big win win for drivers of all grades.
Considering the episode with some foam inserts at our electric Nats; and since some tire supplies obviously cannot be trusted, it would probably be wise for a club to also have a porosity tester available for drivers to check tires when they're handed out. Problems with inconsistencies in tires already exist, and being forced to race with tires that are not the same has the potential to cause even more dissatisfaction.

Kindest regards,
Lars.
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Old 12-09-2012, 10:32 AM   #435
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German nationals in 1:10th and 1:18th nitro will also be run on hand out tyres.
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