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Old 11-06-2012, 06:14 AM   #406
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Originally Posted by Chickentrader View Post
It's a crying shame that this dumb issue has come to this! I think there will be problems with control tires; and I do not believe that there any certainty at all, that control tires rule won't be scrapped after the next EFRA AGM.

But I actually also have concerns about tire saucing. Didn't Michael Salven say something like that you had to go out with 59mm rear tires in 10th scale to be competitive under the conditions at the Euros in a Youtube interview? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkgeSblOp-Q It was probably only one off, but I wouldn't be too happy with wasting all that foam to stay competitive.

It's a very difficult issue; there is no possible way for EFRA to be right and come up with a solution that won't cause problems or disatisfaction in some way.

Kindest regards,
Lars
Yes, I wish they would have kept it the same as it was this year.

And yes, you had to run very small tires to keep the car from traction rolling and use a new set every run if you wanted to be competitive.
But this is regular practice at this level, you always want to run on the optimum tire size. For a complete qualifier you will be running for around 9-10 minutes (7min quali + warm up) so it's simply not possible to run a set of tires for the second time if you want to be competitive.
During a normal event the optimal tire size is around 61/59 for most cars, after a 10 minute run these tires will simply be too small to be used again.
With the additive you simply can't run a set two times on the same day because if you threat the tire twice on the same day the car will have way too much traction and it will flip over instantly.

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Are the control tires going to be handed out in the staging area? If not people will still cheat with additives. Some work well 15-30 minutes after application.

I also notice if you do not sauce on a track where some are, you will slide all over the place.
The tires will be handed out in the pit lane according to the minutes.
And yes, they still have to watch the mechanics closely. In a busy pitlane you could inject the tire with a very aggressive additive which will have immediate effect.
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Old 11-06-2012, 09:41 AM   #407
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I still do not get the idea of the tyres being too big. My opinion is that in both classes the sizes sould be about 2-3mm smaller.

Or there should be option to run the same tyres again.
Or there should be option to true the tyres to the size that the driver wants.

Anybody agree??

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Old 11-06-2012, 09:50 AM   #408
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I still do not get the idea of the tyres being too big. My opinion is that in both classes the sizes sould be about 2-3mm smaller.

Or there should be option to run the same tyres again.
Or there should be option to true the tyres to the size that the driver wants.

Anybody agree??

-X-
Would have been better if they had a 'qualifying set' and a 'final set'. But this makes things more complicated of course.

The option to run them again is almost impossible because of the personnel needed. I experienced first hand during the electric WC this year how much man power it takes to make it work.

Having the tires trued by the driver is also out of the question because it would be easy to apply additive during the truing process.
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Old 11-06-2012, 10:24 AM   #409
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Would have been better if they had a 'qualifying set' and a 'final set'. But this makes things more complicated of course.
That would be good idea.

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Would have been better if they had The option to run them again is almost impossible because of the personnel needed.
That was done in 2011 EC-B Hildesheim. Indeed it needs a lot of personnel.

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Old 11-06-2012, 11:39 AM   #410
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Due the allready choosen "large diameters" the choice was simple not to take 2 different diameters for qualification and finals. It was first sugested.

But the rule to have 1 tire, 1 brand, 1 diameter etc. is to make it not to difficult and at the end, everyone has to deal with it. So if a sponsored driver is used to true tires down to 72mm, drive a heat and throw them away then maybe he has to learn the old way again how he has started the RC hobby trying to make the most runtime on the expensive tires as most privateers still do.

And DS, mayby it would be better that the 1/10 NOMAC section was there because they wern't...
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:08 PM   #411
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I'm sorry but you are the one who needs to think a bit more:

I agree


I will compete at the EC B 1/10 in Gubbio to try the new rules. If I don't like it I will probably completely quit nitro and fully focus on electric and the ETS series.
Lets just discuss the proposals on the meeting 16 december Daan.
We can then vote on the proposals. Read them , there are both ways proposed. I hate to see you to leave the nitroclass 10th. The most demanding and rewarding class for racers
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:13 PM   #412
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And DS, mayby it would be better that the 1/10 NOMAC section was there because they wern't...
I agree with you. Its a shame. But they are volunteers also with busy jobs.
Could be it were 8 scale oriented people deciding over 10scale.
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Old 11-24-2012, 03:51 PM   #413
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Default Let the debate continue

I think that it's crazy to put all the eggs in one basket as per EFRA. Where 100 drivers have all year to source their tyres from various manufacturers, it's a risk that problems like these may occur and not to mention the vibe of arguments over the control tyre choice and then something like what just happened at our national EP titles

-> http://www.rctech.net/forum/11464676-post393.html

An interview at the worlds with Dallas by RC RacingTV seemed only marginally in favour of it and they would see how it goes. One loop hole in the rule that I vaguely remember is that is mentioned you could not touch the "RIMS" correct me if wrong, but the rules didnt state anything about the tyre.

I expect a LOT of pitmen hanging on to wings wheel spinning tyres to reduce diameter. There is no way anyone would get around our first turn on our track at a major meeting on 64/62 unless very experienced at driving. Hence this type of ruling that is designed to create more parity and affordability will fail as it will backfire on the lesser experienced teams.

In Australia they implemented an Engine rule limit, 2 engines and 1 maintenance (remove backplate) per engine. This was designed to limit those with many engines and deep pockets from having an advantage. What the real outcome was it made no difference to those who were in the top 10, it harmed to newer teams that didnt have access to two brand new engines and had three older engines and one new, forcing them to make a decision on which old engine they chose and could not change thereafter. Hence if they made a mistake the ruling was bluntly stating they should pack their gear and go home. Not good for RC.

I expect the EFRA ruling to cause a lot of grief for new teams that will traction roll and CHUNK causing damage to their and perhaps other cars in the process. This will lead to more expense repairing and frustrate a lot of people.There will be offset issues as well with drivers falling short or over the track widths and additional work in scrutiny

Add to it the problem of a RUSH of purchases prior to the event for practice, perhaps a glut of tyres as the manufacturer will want to take advantage of pre-event sales and risk falling short on quantity for the event and then the risk of manufacturing problems and inconsistency in the batch.

There will likely be a plethora of arguments, frustration and cheating accusations and the tone to the event in the garages will be very somber. Not sure who is going to sit down and true the tyres either and it adds an additional load to the event officials to ensure a rule is being enforced. Every rule that is made requires an official to enforce it and this one will be very demanding.

Not a happy place to be, I HONESTLY hope I am wrong but this ruling doesnt do the "average" driver any favours at all.
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Old 11-24-2012, 05:03 PM   #414
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And DS, mayby it would be better that the 1/10 NOMAC section was there because they wern't...
I agree, there should've been a representative, but it's not something I've anything to say about.

To be honest the whole voting process used by Efra is rubbish. The decisions are made during the friday night dinner before the actual meeting. The actual meeting is just an act.
The whole voting process should be changed, the drivers should be able to vote directly. Send every driver who has an efra license a login code so they could login to an efra site and vote on all the new proposals. This is the only way you are sure you get the rules the actual drivers want. Currently the voting is done by a bunch of old guys, most of them don't even race themselves, who have a completely different view compared to the actual drivers.
I know the Dutch 1/8 committee asks their drivers opinion on the proposals and takes a stance the majority of the drivers agree on. However I think they are one of the very few who use this procedure.

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There will likely be a plethora of arguments, frustration and cheating accusations and the tone to the event in the garages will be very somber. Not sure who is going to sit down and true the tyres either and it adds an additional load to the event officials to ensure a rule is being enforced. Every rule that is made requires an official to enforce it and this one will be very demanding.

Not a happy place to be, I HONESTLY hope I am wrong but this ruling doesnt do the "average" driver any favours at all.
Let's just hope some clever guy finds an effective way to cheat and gets caught during the event.
Then Efra doesn't have a choice and has to revert back to the rules like they were during the 2012 season, allow the additive which is on the efra list.
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:28 AM   #415
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Roelof, can I make a special order from your DIY-shop??

Specs:
- Tire truer option for a starter box
- 1/8 size
- Rotating all 4 tyres with some kind of rollers directly from the rubber surface. (tyres attached to the car all the time)
- U-shaped truing bits for all the 4 tyres to make the shape of the tyre correct
- Independently adlustable diameter for all the wheels
- some quide-rollers are propably needed to keep it straight during the truing operation
- 4 super vacuum cleaners sucking the dust away to keep the car internals clean before start
- It has to be fast, so that I will not be wasting too much the warm-up time

- The sports-version could be so that the car itself would rotate the wheels, but I'm worried about the clutch getting too much wear by using it that way.

==> Sure, the Capricorn is already making one, but without knowing the price, i know that I can not afford their version...

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Old 11-25-2012, 01:49 AM   #416
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I agree, there should've been a representative, but it's not something I've anything to say about.

To be honest the whole voting process used by Efra is rubbish. The decisions are made during the friday night dinner before the actual meeting. The actual meeting is just an act.
The whole voting process should be changed, the drivers should be able to vote directly. Send every driver who has an efra license a login code so they could login to an efra site and vote on all the new proposals. This is the only way you are sure you get the rules the actual drivers want. Currently the voting is done by a bunch of old guys, most of them don't even race themselves, who have a completely different view compared to the actual drivers.
I know the Dutch 1/8 committee asks their drivers opinion on the proposals and takes a stance the majority of the drivers agree on. However I think they are one of the very few who use this procedure.



Let's just hope some clever guy finds an effective way to cheat and gets caught during the event.
Then Efra doesn't have a choice and has to revert back to the rules like they were during the 2012 season, allow the additive which is on the efra list.
Daan, I don't know how it is in Holland, but I am pretty certain, that if you had a system where the single racer (and that means all ther racers, not just the top 30) could vote for or against rules, you would have seen a MUCH clearer result against tyre additives and for contol tyres.

What would you have done, if you had to decide?

Leave everything as it was, considering the demise of the EC's last year?
Most people I talked to, would have stayed away again next year if the rules wouldn't have changed.

We already have a run on the starting positions here, after the control tyre was announced.

I am really looking forward to the EC-B in Aigen-Schlägl.

I do buy tyres for less money than the regular racer, but I'm still glad that I don't have to worry about tyres for that race.

Usually I would bring at least two different brands to a EC to have the alternative. That means at least 20 sets each = 40 sets bought up front.
Than you needed to have different shores as well, which usually add another 10-15 pairs.

Now I go to the EC and I know that I only have to buy what I need and that we have a leveled playing field, since everybody runs the same.

I think it'll also be VERY interesting to see if there will be any considerable changes in the rankings.
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Old 11-25-2012, 02:09 AM   #417
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Originally Posted by blis View Post
I think that it's crazy to put all the eggs in one basket as per EFRA. Where 100 drivers have all year to source their tyres from various manufacturers, it's a risk that problems like these may occur and not to mention the vibe of arguments over the control tyre choice and then something like what just happened at our national EP titles

-> http://www.rctech.net/forum/11464676-post393.html

An interview at the worlds with Dallas by RC RacingTV seemed only marginally in favour of it and they would see how it goes. One loop hole in the rule that I vaguely remember is that is mentioned you could not touch the "RIMS" correct me if wrong, but the rules didnt state anything about the tyre.
What would you have done then? Leave it as it was and have even less people racing.
They had to do something and they did the only sensible thing after it became clear that the additives could not be sufficiently controlled.



Quote:
I expect a LOT of pitmen hanging on to wings wheel spinning tyres to reduce diameter.
Sorry, that's silly

Quote:
There is no way anyone would get around our first turn on our track at a major meeting on 64/62 unless very experienced at driving. Hence this type of ruling that is designed to create more parity and affordability will fail as it will backfire on the lesser experienced teams.
So, how do you run a 30 minute final on theat track? With 58/60 tyres?

Also, you obviously expect a newcomer to sort out the entire additive situation, but you don't think they can figure out a setup that will allow them to make your first corner on 62/64's?

I thnk a lot of people shoud take a few steps back and look at the entire picture.

We all have our personal agendas. A lot of us (in my case my son) have sponsors, which bring advantages and obligations.

But I think we should put them aside and look at the entire situation. This hobby is complicated and expensive enough. We don't have a lot of people that just go to a LHS, put several grand down and become nitro racers.

I personally had the worst year since I started my shop.

It's almost not affordable anymore.

Do we really need something like tyre additives, that do not add any value to the hobby but a lot of cost?

I don't know if you have ever been approached by a parent of a young guy at a race, asking you how much it cost to run one of these cars.

Usually when you tell them, they walk away shaking their head. Do you think this is going to change when you tell them they also need to spend another 300 bucks on a tyre saucer and get their son a degree in chemistry.

We need to keep this as simple as possible and as inexpensive as possible, or we'll have the same guys as always in wheelchairs on the driver stands, because their is no new racers coming along.

The economical situation here in Germany is much better than in many other places, but the average age of the nitro racers is getting higher and higher, because all this is too expensive.
It's an old men's sport already.

Think about it.
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Old 11-25-2012, 05:09 AM   #418
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Stefan, now i agree with you on this. Regarding the saucing thing i am curious because its new on the nitro side for me. I have raced 12th scale and used the additives because everyone was doing it and the car was undriveble without it. I think with nitro it would be more or less a tuning thing.
What ar the downfalls with allowing additive you think? besides the cost.
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Old 11-25-2012, 05:21 AM   #419
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What would you have done then? Leave it as it was and have even less people racing.
They had to do something and they did the only sensible thing after it became clear that the additives could not be sufficiently controlled.





Sorry, that's silly



So, how do you run a 30 minute final on theat track? With 58/60 tyres?

Also, you obviously expect a newcomer to sort out the entire additive situation, but you don't think they can figure out a setup that will allow them to make your first corner on 62/64's?

I thnk a lot of people shoud take a few steps back and look at the entire picture.

We all have our personal agendas. A lot of us (in my case my son) have sponsors, which bring advantages and obligations.

But I think we should put them aside and look at the entire situation. This hobby is complicated and expensive enough. We don't have a lot of people that just go to a LHS, put several grand down and become nitro racers.

I personally had the worst year since I started my shop.

It's almost not affordable anymore.

Do we really need something like tyre additives, that do not add any value to the hobby but a lot of cost?

I don't know if you have ever been approached by a parent of a young guy at a race, asking you how much it cost to run one of these cars.

Usually when you tell them, they walk away shaking their head. Do you think this is going to change when you tell them they also need to spend another 300 bucks on a tyre saucer and get their son a degree in chemistry.

We need to keep this as simple as possible and as inexpensive as possible, or we'll have the same guys as always in wheelchairs on the driver stands, because their is no new racers coming along.

The economical situation here in Germany is much better than in many other places, but the average age of the nitro racers is getting higher and higher, because all this is too expensive.
It's an old men's sport already.

Think about it.
The only thing I think about in reference to your posts is using the ignore function, I do read them, I try to understand the rational behind your thinking. All I can suggest is, do yourself and everyone else a favour you ignore me too.

I've been a moderator on many chat channels and forums since 1996 and I can usually come to some kind of amicable resolution, using rational, ridiculous, aggressive, comical or even sensible... Nothing works with you, it's your world and the rest of us must be mindless idiots and you can't be convinced otherwise.

I have failed...

You are extraordinary, you win!
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Old 11-25-2012, 05:28 AM   #420
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The only thing I think about in reference to your posts is using the ignore function, I do read them, I try to understand the rational behind your thinking. All I can suggest is, do yourself and everyone else a favour you ignore me too.

I've been a moderator on many chat channels and forums since 1996 and I can usually come to some kind of amicable resolution, using rational, ridiculous, aggressive, comical or even sensible... Nothing works with you, it's your world and the rest of us must be mindless idiots and you can't be convinced otherwise.

I have failed...

You are extraordinary, you win!
Excuse me?

I have posted my opinion to your post and I have not attacked you personally.

What's this all about?

Oh, and btw, I feel this topic is way beyond you idiot win or I idiot win. It's about the future of our hobby, nothing more nothing less.

Tell me one thing that has gotten better in nitro racing since tyre additives are in the picture. Just one!
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