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Old 10-14-2012, 08:51 AM   #361
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It seems that the debate is leaning to newcomers and such.Have you heard of the Brazilian RTR Championship,the Spanish B Championship or the French Promo Championship?It's like a Kyosho cup and for what I gather a very successful one.Disregarding the weight issue and focusing with newcomers,what if there's a championship for them,where they can race a race legal car that is based on old reliable tech?In Spain I know Top drivers do help newbies and Top Teams embrace this type of racing.This can't be forced from EFRA but from the clubs.
Whatever EFRA decides can the clubs can say something in the lines of "we race based on EFRA rules with the exception of running 1700gr minimum weight"?
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Old 10-14-2012, 09:26 AM   #362
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My body shells are 50g heavier in shoe goo alone after a club day.. it's all relative really.
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Old 10-15-2012, 02:35 AM   #363
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I think at some point, most need to realize RC is going to progress regardless of how much you may want to see it stand still.

That is not to sound cruel at all, just that the cars will naturally become lighter, technology will change, and rules will alter to suit that, or to make some of it fairer or a little more affordable within those developments.

We all personally have ideas of how that should go, but as a whole you just can't please all of us, so best case is compromise, hence things like it not going to 1550 and only going to 1650, other things in 8th maybe a little more controversial like less nitro, but all in the aim to maybe make things more affordable.

I honestly think less weight and nitro will make life easier on tyres, better grip through less weight and less wear, but not all see it that way, I remember there was also talk of less wing effect on 8th, also possibly meaning less tyre wear, which I think may be a big issue in 8th keeping people away from it.

Really I think nitro is in danger of being eaten up by electric more over time, so maybe a lot of what we see is some general moves to stop some of that, how though I'm not sure, but it's 'very' hard to convince people to do nitro these days when electric has the possibility of being a lot easier.

Nothing will ever quite have that wow factor of nitro though, but it's got to keep up with technology and find the balance of not going too far.

The talk of buying cars or not buying cars always gets me though, most of my support equipment outstrips any car I own, a new car is a drop in the ocean compared to everything I buy to support running and maintaining it.

I could also care less about what 'brand' you buy, plenty all have the ability to make low weight and do everything you could ask of it, but some get 'really' caught up in brand fever, which I have always found amusing, likewise finding faults and then picking them to death on forums.
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Old 10-15-2012, 07:52 AM   #364
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Default Rules won't change why we love what we do...

It's off topic but for me this video touches some on the core reasons why money is no object and answers why we are passionate, get heated, argue, fight, vent our frustrations and try to protect our hobby.

Little champions, big champions, the young, the old, the veterans and founders that are very special people and the cars we care for and produce spectacular performances. For all who are true to RC, this is us as a collective in complete harmony.

It should be free of discrimination, wealth, race, culture and prejudice. We have rules, but we should be thankful to simply be a part of it, regardless of result or rank, it is a video that makes me smile every time I watch it and I hope others can relate to it and makes them smile too.

http://youtu.be/Vyb0rWdQfSk
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Old 10-16-2012, 03:16 AM   #365
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Hi there.

Bishop, your argumentation is well based and I accept your opinion.

But, we are living in an economical environment where numbers and profit play a biiger role then the fate of a single driver somewhere in the world.
In NASCAR they have a nice wording which can also being copied to our sports: "Win on sunday, sell on monday". Same you can see in our sports. There are many marketing activities around new cars. Soon, there will be a well known driver being presented running the car at international events. It is always the same, despite the fact which manufacturer we are looking at.
Soon, on national or club basis, you see these cars spread more and more due to the marketing of this company. This is marketing and this is done by the manufacturers to earn money to survive, nothing else and this is the way it has to be. Free market economy.

Regarding EFRA, we have all seen that they made some very bad decisions during the last years which cut almost all international events down in racers. Entries are going down to a level where it starts to be ridiculous (leave away the A Euros Scale in Italy). I personally think that the tire treatment mania did a lot to the decreasing numbers of drivers. I know that a lot of countires around the globe are using tire treatment for a longer time, but what I have seen at international events, this is nothing for a normal racer any more. In the last years average Joe always had the possibility to run at international events like the european championships. This is just not possible any more. Really, nobody, beside the factory teams, can afford having all the technology available at site and I am sure this is one of the reasons international racing will be even smaller in the next years if EFRA will not do a big step to cut costs on this class.
The sports needs to be affordable to all racers who wants to race like 6-7 years ago. Here we had big national events and also the international championships were extremely well attended.
EFRA has to find a solution to attract more drivers to regain old strengh and bring back drivers to the events and not only the factory teams with big budgets playing for the best results to do marketing with.

Just my 2 cents
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Old 10-16-2012, 03:47 AM   #366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
I think at some point, most need to realize RC is going to progress regardless of how much you may want to see it stand still.

That is not to sound cruel at all, just that the cars will naturally become lighter, technology will change, and rules will alter to suit that, or to make some of it fairer or a little more affordable within those developments.

We all personally have ideas of how that should go, but as a whole you just can't please all of us, so best case is compromise, hence things like it not going to 1550 and only going to 1650, other things in 8th maybe a little more controversial like less nitro, but all in the aim to maybe make things more affordable.

I honestly think less weight and nitro will make life easier on tyres, better grip through less weight and less wear, but not all see it that way, I remember there was also talk of less wing effect on 8th, also possibly meaning less tyre wear, which I think may be a big issue in 8th keeping people away from it.

Really I think nitro is in danger of being eaten up by electric more over time, so maybe a lot of what we see is some general moves to stop some of that, how though I'm not sure, but it's 'very' hard to convince people to do nitro these days when electric has the possibility of being a lot easier.

Nothing will ever quite have that wow factor of nitro though, but it's got to keep up with technology and find the balance of not going too far.

The talk of buying cars or not buying cars always gets me though, most of my support equipment outstrips any car I own, a new car is a drop in the ocean compared to everything I buy to support running and maintaining it.

I could also care less about what 'brand' you buy, plenty all have the ability to make low weight and do everything you could ask of it, but some get 'really' caught up in brand fever, which I have always found amusing, likewise finding faults and then picking them to death on forums.
You are aware that nitro content has not really anything to do with power, but rather with easy of tuning and cooling the engine.

The fastest 2,11 ccm engine I've ever seen ran on methanol and oil, without any nitro.

It was a bitch to tune though.


Further, I have the slight feeling that you are taking RC Racing VERY seriously and that you expect that the majority of the racers do the same thing.
I'm kinda like that as well, but trust me, there is still plenty of people racing every weekend that see it as a hobby, not as a sport.

Once we loose these people, it's gonna be mighty lonely at the tracks
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Old 10-16-2012, 04:21 AM   #367
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Stefan,

Not trying to be smart or condescending in any way, but I studied chemistry for a few years.

NitroMethane is CH3NO2 an oxide of Methane.

See the O2, it's the oxygen that burns along with the oxygen in the nitrogen rich air sucked in through our carby, the other compound is CH3 is methane. Hence more Nitro, more oxygen you pack into the fuel. Methanol is a hydroxide of methane, CH3OH only one Oxygen atom.

But there's always a chance I am wrong. *shrugs*
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Old 10-16-2012, 05:29 AM   #368
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If the engine was more optimized to run 0% then the squish band did the trick to get more performance.

@Darkstar,
Nice words!
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Old 10-16-2012, 12:16 PM   #369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blis View Post
Stefan,

Not trying to be smart or condescending in any way, but I studied chemistry for a few years.

NitroMethane is CH3NO2 an oxide of Methane.

See the O2, it's the oxygen that burns along with the oxygen in the nitrogen rich air sucked in through our carby, the other compound is CH3 is methane. Hence more Nitro, more oxygen you pack into the fuel. Methanol is a hydroxide of methane, CH3OH only one Oxygen atom.

But there's always a chance I am wrong. *shrugs*
You are correct, nitro methane is used as an oxidizer in our fuel to provide more oxygen that what the engine could suck in by it self, BUT, other than for example in a supercharged dragster engine, it does not make more power.

In an supercharged engine your can press a much fuel into the combustion chamber as you want, and then you need the nitro methane to provide enough oxigen to get a good combustion.

The reason we use nitro in RC engines, is to be able to get more fuel through the engine and still get a decent combustion, because we need the fuel/oil mix to cool and lubricate the engine.

When I used to race in Atlanta, I made 40% fuel mixes on the really hot summer days, to be able to run the engine richer and keep it cool that way.

I don't know if you are familiar with "EdwardN" in this forum.
He's probably one of the most knowledgable guys here and he designe his own engine, which was later on sold as the Axial 12RR.

He asked me to mix 0% fuel for him for the 2004 Winternationals in Ft Myers and he showed me what his engine was capable of, with that fuel.

You get by far the cleanest and leanest combustion with pure methanol, but as I said, it's not easy to tune the engine.

Btw, I'm a chemist as well :-)
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Old 10-17-2012, 04:01 AM   #370
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@Roelof:

Thank you.

I follow all this development since the very first 1/10 euros in Vila Real Portugal. I have attended every single european championship race except the euros this year as I am a strict opponent to the tire treatment story.
The increase of cost and the decrease of drivers is really significat since the last 3 or 4 years. And this even without the tire treatment discussion.
For sure everything is getting more and more professionel, and this is also ok to a certain extend. In the past the factory drivers won and also they do today with the exception that they are fully paid for the job they are doing.
For the top 10-15% of a big race like this nothing has really changed, but the 85-90% of the field a lot has changed. Many of "us" normal racers struggle to afford such impressive events once per year due to multiple reasons.
Many things could have been changed by EFRA to prevent a development like this, but nothing was done. This is why I critizise the decisions EFRA did the past years. This did not help and also led to decreasing amount of drivers at recent events.
EFRA needs to investigate what is needed to get drivers back to the tracks for international events and why a racing series organised on a private base beside the official federation is that sucsessful.
For me personally it is really strange to see that these races are well attended, there is no discussion about rules and regulations, but as soon as it comes to an EFRA sanctioned event hell is breaking loose. This is something I do not get and it is getting worse with every year. I am really curious to see if there will be an international racing series in the nitro sector for next year in europe and ehat then will happen to EFRA championships when there are only 15-20 drivers left on the events, becasue most of the others will go for clear rules and have the freedom to race without discussions.

@Stefan:
Beside that you need to see that Nitromethane also works as prevention to engine knocking. It also affects the gas stack inside the engine and this is the reason why an engine used with fuel with higher nitromethane content is easier to adjust. Also commonly spoken, a rich engine is running more stable then a lean one set to the point. Even small chenges in airpressure do affect such an engine. Keeping the engine on the rich side with a good amount of nitromethane make it really easy to set correctly, so it runs with a good amount of power and being reliable at the same time.
See you at the race in FN, then we can discuss this in detail :-)
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Old 10-17-2012, 05:21 AM   #371
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Darkstar.
I have a 2012 financial report of the EFRA and I can tell that they are earning a lot of money compared with he one I have seen 5 years back. All I can say is that the homologation creates a huge income but sadly is also giving a lot of problems in the field, not only created by manufacturers secretly making changes to the product but also the bad homologation procedures by the EFRA itself like the noise from the exhaust pipes....

A few years ago the EFRA had a sugestion to make a world class competition series only for factories to make more promotion arround it. A nice but also a wrong sugestion because no real activities were created to push the local RC driver to a higher goal. Ofcourse an organisation of the EFRA can say that it is a task for the countries and their clubs but I think more has to be done to push them all....

Oh well, with the current devellopment of mr. de Graaf at the MACH track, his soon to have retirement of his work and his wish to live with his wife in Thiland it seems the EFRA is in the search of a new 1/8 chairman soon. For sure with a new 1/10 chairman there is some hope there will be new people with new visions and a much better knowledge of the technology.
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Old 10-17-2012, 07:32 AM   #372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkstar900 View Post
@Roelof:

Thank you.

I follow all this development since the very first 1/10 euros in Vila Real Portugal. I have attended every single european championship race except the euros this year as I am a strict opponent to the tire treatment story.
The increase of cost and the decrease of drivers is really significat since the last 3 or 4 years. And this even without the tire treatment discussion.
For sure everything is getting more and more professionel, and this is also ok to a certain extend. In the past the factory drivers won and also they do today with the exception that they are fully paid for the job they are doing.
For the top 10-15% of a big race like this nothing has really changed, but the 85-90% of the field a lot has changed. Many of "us" normal racers struggle to afford such impressive events once per year due to multiple reasons.
Many things could have been changed by EFRA to prevent a development like this, but nothing was done. This is why I critizise the decisions EFRA did the past years. This did not help and also led to decreasing amount of drivers at recent events.
EFRA needs to investigate what is needed to get drivers back to the tracks for international events and why a racing series organised on a private base beside the official federation is that sucsessful.
For me personally it is really strange to see that these races are well attended, there is no discussion about rules and regulations, but as soon as it comes to an EFRA sanctioned event hell is breaking loose. This is something I do not get and it is getting worse with every year. I am really curious to see if there will be an international racing series in the nitro sector for next year in europe and ehat then will happen to EFRA championships when there are only 15-20 drivers left on the events, becasue most of the others will go for clear rules and have the freedom to race without discussions.

@Stefan:
Beside that you need to see that Nitromethane also works as prevention to engine knocking. It also affects the gas stack inside the engine and this is the reason why an engine used with fuel with higher nitromethane content is easier to adjust. Also commonly spoken, a rich engine is running more stable then a lean one set to the point. Even small chenges in airpressure do affect such an engine. Keeping the engine on the rich side with a good amount of nitromethane make it really easy to set correctly, so it runs with a good amount of power and being reliable at the same time.
See you at the race in FN, then we can discuss this in detail :-)
Na dann musste mir aber schon sagen wer du bist ;-)
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Old 10-17-2012, 09:25 AM   #373
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Old 10-17-2012, 04:07 PM   #374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roelof View Post
Darkstar.
I have a 2012 financial report of the EFRA and I can tell that they are earning a lot of money compared with he one I have seen 5 years back. All I can say is that the homologation creates a huge income but sadly is also giving a lot of problems in the field, not only created by manufacturers secretly making changes to the product but also the bad homologation procedures by the EFRA itself like the noise from the exhaust pipes....

A few years ago the EFRA had a sugestion to make a world class competition series only for factories to make more promotion arround it. A nice but also a wrong sugestion because no real activities were created to push the local RC driver to a higher goal. Ofcourse an organisation of the EFRA can say that it is a task for the countries and their clubs but I think more has to be done to push them all....

Oh well, with the current devellopment of mr. de Graaf at the MACH track, his soon to have retirement of his work and his wish to live with his wife in Thiland it seems the EFRA is in the search of a new 1/8 chairman soon. For sure with a new 1/10 chairman there is some hope there will be new people with new visions and a much better knowledge of the technology.
I've been reading your posts with very much interest, and you are one of the most well informed persons that I've seen on the forum. I thank you for alerting all of us of the controversial developments at EFRA. It is not affecting me directly, but it has the potential to filter over to IFMAR; and altough I don't know if it's true, there is a feeling by some that EFRA seem to dominate at IFMAR. This is your chance to be heard and to make an impact Roelof. You should send your C.V. with a statement of your vision(s) for the sport to all EFRA associated clubs & countries. Perhaps the member countries would rather elect someone that has already been a representative at EFRA; so perhaps you would need to be on the NOMAC General Board first, but you should at last try.

I don’t know of course if you have put your name forward for a position at NOMAC, but it is not fair to sit on the sideline and criticize all that is decided without at least doing something to influence the higher authorities first. It achieves nothing but disharmony, and I sincerely hope that you genuinely want to contribute.

Changing the subject: I would think that the control tire proposal is the most debatable of what I have seen on the agenda. The weights proposals don't really seem that harsh for those that already spend lots money to try and stay competitive; and really shouldn't add to cost for them, and those that don't spend that money can still race with what they've got.

Kindest regards,
Lars.
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Old 10-17-2012, 05:19 PM   #375
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That feeling is not that strange, both organisations know Dallas as the main Chairman and the 1/8 is with both in the hands of Sander. But yes, with the many chairman seats Sander has I too have sometimes that feeling. About the hapening on the MACH track you can read it on the frontpage of their site, next friday there is a special meeting to make some changes. For me personally finally some things are straighten out what has hapened 17 years ago.

I have no interests in an EFRA function, I am just a month out of a job due economical changes in the organisation and currently seeking for another one so I can not tell what the future brings. Beside that, some commercial persons and some drivers are only thinking to themselves which is already taking a lot of energy on national level. The 5 years I have done this (the 1st 2 years alone for my section) we have had a steady number of drivers and together with some Belgium top drivers we also have a high level of racing. Personal I think a lot of current devellopments within the EFRA are not healhy to keep the hobby in the sport and sadly all the guys wanting to follow EFRA rules have already lost the real feeling of the hobby.
I think it is my task as chairman and right as driver to protect the drivers against high costs and a strickt ruling because with that you will loose drivers for sure. And still at the end the drivers are voting... but saddly some commercial people who are sponsoring drivers have a lot of grip on their drivers about how to vote.

And one last thing. With all the devellopments I am involved with there is a high chance to go commercial which is pushing me in a non neutral position....
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