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Old 10-13-2012, 03:46 PM   #346
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This is definitely an interesting thread which I follow already for quite some time already, like most other threads here at rctech. After a couple of pages in this specific thread I noticed that a most complacent baby was typing again from behind his keyboard producing every alternating post about me myself and I … astonishing really … Pointless arguing with him anyway since he is only arguing for the sake of arguing. not even attending the national RC union meetings of his 200mm class. I am getting a déjà-vu. Just sharing an observation …
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Old 10-13-2012, 04:34 PM   #347
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Default Off Topic - Motives - Sitting on the fence.

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This is definitely an interesting thread which I follow already for quite some time already, like most other threads here at rctech. After a couple of pages in this specific thread I noticed that a most complacent baby was typing again from behind his keyboard producing every alternating post about me myself and I … astonishing really … Pointless arguing with him anyway since he is only arguing for the sake of arguing. not even attending the national RC union meetings of his 200mm class. I am getting a déjà-vu. Just sharing an observation …
Deja-vu huh?

Many years ago I worked for a great dutch company ABN, (now ABN AMRO) my dutch director had a coffee mug on his desk with...

"A turtle only makes progress with its neck stuck out!"

I assume many sit on the fence in heated debates like these, not wanting to engage in the activism we need to have on both sides of the argument. If more people submitted their preference and included the motives as to why they chose that option then there may be less arguing in amongst individuals and better understanding of hat EVERYONE wants. Then perhaps the discussion will improve and form better more productive compromises.

I am sure if any of the lower and midfield teams in F1 could buy a Ferrari, McLaren or RedBull car, they would! In RC we have that option, I also respect individuals who have a passion for their cars, they may have invested heavily into it for parts and can not justify the expense to switch chassis, they must accept their decisions will slow them down.

Will it remove the enjoyment of racing with like minded model car motorsport enthusiasts? If enjoyment is based on performance, then they must accept change and not dictate handicapping others who openly seek performance.

I have heard some say, many go to the World Championships, keep their cars immaculate, sit with the best in the world and care less whether they perform or not. My son is headed to the worlds as a team assistant and he will return with the answer to this question.

If true, I take my hat off to those who love what we do and care less for the trophy. I believe these passionate people are the reason why RC still exists today.

In a world where you could sit at home and enjoy a simulated experience on a 60" wide screen plasma and a playstation, clean hands, no maintenance, minimum expense for driving into the wall etc etc..

There are some of us that enjoy the people, the passion they bring, the pleasure of success and the comfort given each other when this cruel hobby shatters your dreams of success.

One hundred grams here or there isn't the problem, it's the solidarity amongst us that counts.

Long Live RC...

h
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Old 10-13-2012, 05:50 PM   #348
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I am sure if any of the lower and midfield teams in F1 could buy a Ferrari, McLaren or RedBull car, they would! In RC we have that option, I also respect individuals who have a passion for their cars, they may have invested heavily into it for parts and can not justify the expense to switch chassis, they must accept their decisions will slow them down.
So we must buy the Ferrari in RC, in this case a Cap?
And that seccond part I hate the most. It is not the guys to blame they want a lighter car but the guys who stick with a heavy car? Who want to change the weight at the 1st time? Not the guys with the heavy car, so how can they be blamed in this discussion?
Let me remind you that even a topsport like F1 has a lot of rules to keep some costs down.

Looking to several proposals in the Dutch competition.... With the 1/8 several 2400 gram and even one guy want it to 2350 gram. In the 1/10 several 1600 gram, one 1550 and a 1650 gram

If the EFRA and IFMAR want to set it to 2400/1650 then it is not wise to think different....
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Old 10-13-2012, 07:04 PM   #349
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So we must buy the Ferrari in RC, in this case a Cap?
And that seccond part I hate the most. It is not the guys to blame they want a lighter car but the guys who stick with a heavy car? Who want to change the weight at the 1st time? Not the guys with the heavy car, so how can they be blamed in this discussion?
Let me remind you that even a topsport like F1 has a lot of rules to keep some costs down.

Looking to several proposals in the Dutch competition.... With the 1/8 several 2400 gram and even one guy want it to 2350 gram. In the 1/10 several 1600 gram, one 1550 and a 1650 gram

If the EFRA and IFMAR want to set it to 2400/1650 then it is not wise to think different....

Why are you constantly attacking people here. I said, we have an option to choose in RC. And in the very next sentence I also said, I RESPECT people who love their cars, have invested heavily in them and accept it will not be as competitive and race to participate and perform to THEIR best, which is a totally satisfying experience (IMHO)

For you I will explain that for many years, I as a father was blamed for making my sons slow, driving an old TM car a slower GRP engine and I accepted that this was my decision, I am the one paying for it and I still felt there was a lot WE needed to learn before I chose to change to faster chassis and faster engines and I am thankful this sport offers everyone that opoprtunity, not just a select few.

To this day I enforce my sons race without concerning their result. I want them to respect the faster guys on the stand, drive with good etiquette and do the best they and feel like they achieved a great result for the budget and equipment available to us.

I WILL NEVER be an advocate of handicapping the best in our sport because I do not have the budget or skill to compete with them. It is a privilege to be part of a sport that allows little people to compete with the best in their country and have opportunities to learn from the best in the world.

For me, watching Australian drivers like Peter & Steven Jovanovic, Jeff Hamon, Jason Dorn, Clayton Hughes, Aaron Lee and many others race within .1 of a second of each other and feel proud that young drivers like Chance Karlsson have the opportunity to step up with access to the right equipment and compete within a level of fairness. I would happily pay a spectator fee to watch them and also spend a lot of my time capturing their achievements on video and enjoy doing it.

Fortunately for me, my son Luke is also proving to be worthy of good results and for this Capricorn RC Australia offered to care for him and I am sending him to the world championships as a TEAM ASSISTANT, so he can enjoy hanging out with his idols, learning as much as he can about car preparation

As a father, all I want is for him to feel like he is a little champion, in the presence of BIG champions, whether he comes 1st or last!

Roelof, when you come to our next Australian national titles in 2013, I promise to you, whatever your car weighs, I will add 100g on our car and enjoy the fact that someone came from the other side of the planet to enjoy what we do together... OK!!!??
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Old 10-14-2012, 02:13 AM   #350
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OMG … "A turtle only makes progress with its neck stuck out!"
This statement is probably as old as your lap record note the smiley.

Just fyi, my own 1/8 car’s weight is far below the minimum of 2500 grams, I need to add at least 100-150 grams, depending on the setup for a specific race. As strange as it may sound, I am voting for 2500 grams, thinking of all the barriers that shouldn’t be there for newcomers. Tyre saucing is the other big issue at this moment. At our club we even decided (for all nats licensed drivers) to race with NT21-5T engines at the club races, to decrease the big differences and keep it nice and interesting for beginners. Because I think the future of RC lies with beginners and newcomers.

I do not know Stefan at all, but take your time and re-read his posts in which he tries to explain it as short and simple as possible. Nobody dictates handicapping others who openly seek performance. There is a reason for rules being there, since the drivers dictate the rules together by themselves, at least that is how it works in Holland.
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Old 10-14-2012, 03:36 AM   #351
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OMG … "A turtle only makes progress with its neck stuck out!"
This statement is probably as old as your lap record note the smiley.

Just fyi, my own 1/8 car’s weight is far below the minimum of 2500 grams, I need to add at least 100-150 grams, depending on the setup for a specific race. As strange as it may sound, I am voting for 2500 grams, thinking of all the barriers that shouldn’t be there for newcomers. Tyre saucing is the other big issue at this moment. At our club we even decided (for all nats licensed drivers) to race with NT21-5T engines at the club races, to decrease the big differences and keep it nice and interesting for beginners. Because I think the future of RC lies with beginners and newcomers.

I do not know Stefan at all, but take your time and re-read his posts in which he tries to explain it as short and simple as possible. Nobody dictates handicapping others who openly seek performance. There is a reason for rules being there, since the drivers dictate the rules together by themselves, at least that is how it works in Holland.
Note this smiley, we are so far off a lap record, yet we are happy

Please read my posts too, we race at 1725g under the current AARCMCC/FEMCA rules and I stated I don't have a problem with that either. But do you seriously feel newcomers and beginners will perform differently with 100G +/- or is it just a philosophical argument. Hence, imho this debate affects the top level drivers and not the midfield or beginners and it's for the top levels of our sport.

Also take into consideration for a country like Australia where our major cities span over 2000Km, we spend 3x the amount in travel and accommodation than the cost of a WC/RS chassis. So for us, we know it's expensive and we have many flavours of club spec rules to make it affordable for newcomers and beginners. We however are also governed by IFMAR and it's descendants along the way, so decisions affect us as well.

Our local numbers are dwindling, in Western Australia, 6 hours flight, nitro on-road has been shut down completely and one driver saved up for years just to smell and hear and enjoy Nitro On-road racing once again. The only time we can gather as a collective is at state championships and the least expensive part is the car.

Even our neighboars across the pacific in new Zealand take the oportunity to travel and join us so we as a collective can raise the level of performance and build on the excitement and spectacle of our beloved hobby.

To contemplate traveling to Europe or the Americas and attend an international with world class competition would factor in at least 5-10x the cost of a chassis. And every time we poor Aussies see racing in Europe, we dream of being there to join in and enjoy and not how much a chassis cost or whether we want to add weight or not. Yes rules are rules and we'd have plenty of time to read them on a 22 hour flight.

This leaves me bewildered as to why some people beeline straight for the moot argument of buying a new chassis when if those concerned for the well being of the sport globally, should consider everyone.

Algemene RC - I am all for the common good
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Old 10-14-2012, 03:53 AM   #352
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I think if no one has made the proposal last year we didn't have this huge discussion today. I even wanna bet if the stupid very low 1550 proposal wasn't done no one was even thinking about it to get that low. (except some who want to proove themselves)

We don't have to comply with the toplevel racers, that is very stupid to do because (as someone has stated before) it will become an elite sport and when that is hapening there is a very poor future of this sport and maybe even the hobby.
Let me explain: Toplevel (sponsorered) drivers are forced to drive under every kind of ruling, privateers have the choice to drive. So with the one or the other, where do you think you will loose drivers? More important question, how many beginners will still have the urge to do something national or international?

As EFRA has stated, even manufacturers are not happy with the 1550 so why argue with them, because some people can do it?
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Old 10-14-2012, 05:04 AM   #353
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[QUOTE=Roelof;11322672]I think if no one has made the proposal last year we didn't have this huge discussion today. I even wanna bet if the stupid very low 1550 proposal wasn't done no one was even thinking about it to get that low. (except some who want to proove themselves)

We don't have to comply with the toplevel racers, that is very stupid to do because (as someone has stated before) it will become an elite sport and when that is hapening there is a very poor future of this sport and maybe even the hobby.

You are correct, you do not have to comply with top level rules at the club level, you are entitled to make your own rules for your club that best suits your members.


Question, how many beginners will still have the urge to do something national or international?

Some do, and they learn very fast it is a LONG ROAD to success, it's not just about money.

As EFRA has stated, even manufacturers are not happy with the 1550 so why argue with them, because some people can do it?

I agree, 1550 is too low a jump, but that's not my decision nor is it your decision, it's for EFRA to decide, so write to them and please stop arguing and promote a productive debate.



So if drivers are adding too many coats of paint to their shells, perhaps not cleaning their cars of dirt, fuel and and foam, using NiMH batteries or LiPo with regulators, adding too many cable ties, adding too much fuel line, not cutting down servo wires, adding shell supports, running steel clutches and heavy servos maybe they need some advice and where they can improve their cars.

I know many people here on RC-Tech that would be more than happy to help other drivers reduce overall weight, I've also met many in RC that don't want to listen or learn...

We had one beginner come to the track with a CEN claiming he knew what Pro Touring was and he hadn't even run in the engine, even then he didnt want to listen and learn. On the box it said fastest touring car (long gearing) and he believed he was going to come and kick some serious butt at England Park.

He decided to stop on front straight a friend with an immaculate pro tourer had no chance of avoiding it and drove straight into him at full noise and broke the guys rear end. The next week he return with home made METAL Bumper Bars and thought he was indestructible, he didnt think the car would be impossible to drive.

I spent two hours with that guy, disrupted my sons racing trying to help and explain to him he needed to run in the engine. He even broke the pullstart because it wasnt run-in and I repaired that for him too. No matter how much we tried to help, he knew what he was doing and insisted we help.

On a different not, I was at another local club and a 14 year old boy arrived with his single mum who's husband just left her and she wanted to make her son happy and bought him a Kyosho shaft drive to come and play at the club. You know the RTR Kyosho servos don't last and this boy was so upset and his mother was beside herself.

So once again I ignored my son and let him deal with his car while I grabbed an old servo of mine, pulled the car down, installed it and told the boy that his car was RTR spec and the others were driving much faster Race Spec cars that were faster, so he should go out there and keep it on the black stuff and make his mum happy, because she's spent a lot of money and needs to see you happy. I tuned the engine down, we put him on track and for that heat he really tried to keep it "real" and drove well.

The mother came to me in tears of joy seeing her son doing well on track, not winning, but driving well. She could not believe that RC community would be so generous and helpful, she gave me a hug and all I said is, we want to enjoy our hobby together, we have plenty of servos and we all started somewhere. The next heat the 14 year old wanted more and wanted to race, he pushed his car into the wall... The mothers face sank but she realised her son was too young and without a dad on the scene it was impossible for her to continue.

Yes it hurts me a LOT to see newcomers and beginners struggle and leave, but it's a far fetched idea that reducing the weight is the cause of these newcomer and membership attrition. Needless to say, all attempts to help failed and I've not seen either of them again and these are only two of many that have come dreaming and left disillusioned.

Roelof, you've never met and helped these beginners? You really think it is 100 or 200 grams is the real cause of losing them?
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Old 10-14-2012, 06:38 AM   #354
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I don´t get it Blis, why don’t you want to completely skip any minimum weight?
Any minimum weight blocks top drivers who want to go to extremes.
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Old 10-14-2012, 06:43 AM   #355
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I don´t get it Blis, why don’t you want to completely skip any minimum weight?
Any minimum weight blocks top drivers who want to go to extremes.
Huh? No minimum weight? Damn do I have to go back and read all the crap I just wrote? brb.

Argh.. now you are pulling my leg? Joking?
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Old 10-14-2012, 06:45 AM   #356
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I do help beginners all the time. The problem is that most beginners with RTR do not listen already with the advise of their first car and will end up with cheap crap like Nitrotek because it is affordable. I already have helped many guys to get their engine working again by tuning, pinching and even modifying without huge costs (most even for free). You can not compare the street racer with the track racer, it is already sad to see that for clubcompetitions RTR cars are ruled out because the use of a bigger engine while we all know with such cars and engines they do not have any advantages. This is already one of the reasons why people stay away from clubracing. With impossible rule you do create a same atmosphere in the step from club to a higher level.

On the track running the same kind of serious cars most beginners think they must have the same stuff the fastest guys are running. You can see the same here on this forum if a starter asks what engine to get and some do advise a Murnan or something else high end and tuned. With racing it is only stupid to think you can buy performance. And that is where it starts....
The guys investing a lot thinking to be faster and be competive in a short time are also the first guys leaving RC racing. As Richard has stated, running a very simple but reliable and affordable engine like the N21-5T we have prooved that it isn't always the material to go fast. The less experienced drivers showing up with high-tech cars with all kind of options and the fastest 9-port engines are still outperformed by experienced racers with a compleetly standard car and a 5-port stock engine. I can tell you that it did open their eyes and most of them do drive the 5-port engine by now and the most important thing: they are having fun.

Pro racers are more and more forgetting that their budget to race and their racing scene can only excist by the huge number of privateers. They are the ones making an affordable and friendly racing more difficult.
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Old 10-14-2012, 07:04 AM   #357
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I agree, 1550 is too low a jump, but that's not my decision nor is it your decision, it's for EFRA to decide, so write to them and please stop arguing and promote a productive debate.

The EFRA is formed by the countries, the countries are formed by the clubs and the clubs are formed by the racers. So finally the racer as you and me has to decide and the coutry repesentative must vote what the majority of the drivers in his country wants. people (drivers and representatives) are forgetting this and I know for sure that some representatives due commercial reasons or language barriers are not voting with the will of their drivers.

Also do not forget it is not only EFRA level, most top level drivers do want the same EFRA rules on national level as well and before you know it it has reached clublevel....
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Old 10-14-2012, 07:21 AM   #358
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I do help beginners all the time. The problem is that most beginners with RTR do not listen already with the advise of their first car and will end up with cheap crap like Nitrotek because it is affordable. I already have helped many guys to get their engine working again by tuning, pinching and even modifying without huge costs (most even for free). You can not compare the street racer with the track racer, it is already sad to see that for clubcompetitions RTR cars are ruled out because the use of a bigger engine while we all know with such cars and engines they do not have any advantages. This is already one of the reasons why people stay away from clubracing. With impossible rule you do create a same atmosphere in the step from club to a higher level.

On the track running the same kind of serious cars most beginners think they must have the same stuff the fastest guys are running. You can see the same here on this forum if a starter asks what engine to get and some do advise a Murnan or something else high end and tuned. With racing it is only stupid to think you can buy performance. And that is where it starts....
The guys investing a lot thinking to be faster and be competive in a short time are also the first guys leaving RC racing. As Richard has stated, running a very simple but reliable and affordable engine like the N21-5T we have prooved that it isn't always the material to go fast. The less experienced drivers showing up with high-tech cars with all kind of options and the fastest 9-port engines are still outperformed by experienced racers with a compleetly standard car and a 5-port stock engine. I can tell you that it did open their eyes and most of them do drive the 5-port engine by now and the most important thing: they are having fun.

Pro racers are more and more forgetting that their budget to race and their racing scene can only excist by the huge number of privateers. They are the ones making an affordable and friendly racing more difficult.
Hey, glad we see some things the same. We also have these problems in Australia and everytime we try to agree, someone disagrees. I really feel a responsibility to race in two modes, one is fun and give opportunity for everyone to have fun too. The other is when we get serious and our race engines come out of the box!

I think it is here where this discussion needs to split in two directions, there are two modes of racing we need to protect. One is at the club level where clubs around the world can adapt their rules to make it more fun and more accessible to more enthusiasts. In Australia with hotter climates we could use larger holes in our front windows. etc..

The hard part is finding a method and way to simply administer handicapping those that want to push hard in social racing. They force newcomers to lean up their engines and try to POWER their way back into being competitive. How many times do you see newcomers lean up their engine to make the 2 speed shift not realising that full tyres caused the problem, and a simple 2mm hex driver and some patience is all that is required. So it is experience and education that's more important than rules at this point.

Then for the serious racing, as you mentioned that few newcomers join in at the National and International level, we should allow those experienced teams who wont damage their cars in order to finish more room and performance under international rules. The worst thing that can happen is rogue administrative bodies forming their own rules, then we all have to adapt to different rules, this also happens here in Australia and it's a real pain.

We need to protect social racing, but I think it should be flexible and based on international rules and be very clear that each cclub around the world will have different needs to suit their members.

Hence, I just don't understand what EFRA has to do with a club race if all the members of the club wish to run heavier, then that's a club issue. At the top levels we all accept that 1725 is too heavy for the modern cars and yet, I'm sure I've agreed somewhere in the pages before this, 1550 is a little extreme too.

Lets not impose what works for club racing on international racing, because the large budget required to race internationally is rarely due to a chassis and we should not compare top level racing to having some fun at a local track and enjoying a laugh in pit lane.

Unless the host nations national anthem isnt played before the start of an A-main, it's fun for me and we should be laughing, joking and having a good time and bringing our cars across the line in one piece, and under 120c




Then ther
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Old 10-14-2012, 07:21 AM   #359
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Roelof, nitro racers should get a course in how to stick lead or any other weighted material on chassis. When you read the proposals for weight reductions it seems the lead is flying everywhere during nitro races.

The big secret would be to degrease the chassiss and weight first before sticking the weight on. I use shoegoo, never come off on it's own.
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Old 10-14-2012, 07:37 AM   #360
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Roelof, nitro racers should get a course in how to stick lead or any other weighted material on chassis. When you read the proposals for weight reductions it seems the lead is flying everywhere during nitro races.

The big secret would be to degrease the chassiss and weight first before sticking the weight on. I use shoegoo, never come off on it's own.
If you come anywhere near my chassis with shoegoo I will be 1 gram heavier and poke you with a blunt body reamer! hehe!
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