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Old 08-27-2012, 01:56 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by kyosho malaysia View Post
why you all always focusing the weight problem on the car,why nobody complain the engine weight,why always push the problem to the car manufacturer.
the engine manufacturer should produce light weight engine so that they can create a selling point on the weight rules.
I think you underestimate engine manufacturers, if you think that they don't realise that there would be a competitive advantage in lighter engines. It looks to me like major manufacturers have decided not to sacrifice reliability for lighter weights. Picco engines are bit lighter with their 6mm crank shaft; most manufacturers still stay with the 7mm shafts, and Novarossi based engines seems to still be the pick by most of the worlds top drivers.

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Old 08-27-2012, 03:33 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Roelof View Post
Be real!
You do think all those 15 left over National drivers are all willing to go to 1550 gram?
There are rumors that at least one is making the step to 1/8 next year, how much 1/10 drivers did already make that step in the past few years?
With such low numbers there is almost no track willing to organise a national next year and with such rules you can rule out all possible future interested drivers with older cars.

You have to start to ask all non National 1/10 drivers why they do not drive a National and ask them what must be done to get them to do it.
Just as aggresive as always,
You seem to know it all, even though i never see you at the races 10 scale, but all that has been done did not get new racers. The racers that do attend all have cars with added weight. (40% already race CAP ) And furthermore Its not the weight what lets you win races. Its not that big an issue, believe me no newcommer is going to let the weight be the thing that stops him from attending the national championship, i certainly didn`t know it mattered when i started with my 1950 gramms car, and had a lot of fun with it.
It is something wich is wanted when you gain experience in setup, not when jou start racing.
Just face it. The stock class is there for newcommers with theirs stock cars and with a stock engine wich is very cheap with very good quality. I personnely would like more people attending, and have helped starters where i can.
Maybe i too will be racing 1/8 scale next year. Lets face it with a few quitting the sport its even less racers. With Daan and Sander attending the GP in apeldoorn its maybe even less next year.

What do you think Roelof can i race NOMAC 1/8 next year or do i have to PROMO. You are the one who decides it.

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Old 08-27-2012, 04:25 PM   #258
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For the 1/8 NOMAC I can not tell, without a Promo listing the chance is much less....

I do not know it all but I do know the word of the drivers who has left the 1/10 nationals. The lack of competition and fun were the reasons. And yes, what I do know is that most drivers do not care when the meeting is there where to vote for the new rules and most of the time the discussion about wrong choices is started afterwards on the net. Also such an attitude is not giving a clear picture to those who can not decide to make a step to the nationals.
And then.... the Kyosho cup is going down the drain, with just 10 drivers there is not much more to stay alive, what will it be next year?

The weight limit to 1550 gram is for sure not supported by all and I am pretty sure if those drivers do come and vote they will have the majority. If it will come through I am pretty sure it will hold others. Yes some do not care if they drive a 1800 gram car but not all.

We will see how it goes next year.
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Old 08-27-2012, 08:24 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by Roelof View Post
Not only the car is making the weight..... There is more needed to get the 1550 gram:

- lightweight bodies -> more fragile compared with normal weight ones.
- LiPo/LiFe batteries -> more fragile compared with the rocksolid NiMh
- aluminium shafts -> more fragile than steel ones
- titanium or aluminium srews -> more fragile than steel ones
- lightweight rims -> more fragile than normal ones
- sometimes low profile or even micro servo's are used -> from what I have heared arround me also not the most solid solution.

All kind of things taking away the affordable hobby within this sport, if you want to ruin this hobby then go ahead with such stupid rules. As mentioned before: there are only a few complaining about the heavy weight, for some others it is becoming a sport to have the lightest car but for most it is a pain in the ass to comply with what toplevel racers want.

Adding weight is pinuts (not using expensive materials), loosing weight is a compleete different thing.

I totally respect your contribution to the sport but I do have a problem with the logic in this case.

No body will be penalised for running heavier than 1550. So run 2KG if you want and enjoy yourself, it's affordable, you just wont be competitive at the top level.

Now, for those who wish to compete at the TOP level, then money is NO OBJECT as racing is always expensive at this level. So we cannot argue that it is unfair on the budget racer, because there are many other areas of performance, such as modified motors, titanium screws, titanium shafts, lightened shafts and these are all used by the top runners.

Ultimately it should be fair but to begin handicapping with weight isnt part of our sport. If it were I would 100% guarantee we would handicap Grosskamp, Peitsch and all the others and allow a good driver with a poor quality car to win the world championship and we would ultimately LOSE the stars of our sport.

This is a no win argument, and for anyone who wants to curb the performance of our cars must be thinking only of their own performance. From the very first day I bought a RC car, all I wanted to do is make it go faster. I KNEW that it's based on my budget and how far I want to take it, that does not mean I dictate to others how much they want to invest to achieve their desired performance.

And Roelof, do we ban you from fabricating your own clutches or stop you from investing time and money into tuning systems, no! It's an advantage to you that you want to invest in and the same applies to a chassis.

If one manufacturer manages to improve on a design, should we stop them because the others havent managed to do the same.

ALSO...

Lil Bump.... Capricorn C02 Fragile????

Either you do not own one, or you come off track and expect a Race Spec car to tolerate that kind of abuse, our Capricorn is far from fragile! 1.5 years on and nothing broken short of a Lay Shaft bearing change.

PS: Roelof... I do not want an argument.

- lightweight bodies -> Higher CG if you use heavy shell. IT COSTS ME MORE TO PAINT ONE.
- LiPo/LiFe batteries -> NiMH??? NO SERIOUSLY!!!! Thank god for LiFe, no more runaways into the fence!
- aluminium shafts -> There's different grades and not all Aluminium is equal. (Just ask Mugen)
- titanium or aluminium srews -> It's the norm even in slower class EP racing.
- lightweight rims -> Subject to warp and cracking, so the choice is up to you, I use out of the box Capricorn Tyres, and love them ($25 a set)
- sometimes low profile or even micro servo's are used -> $75 for a Savox Hi Speed metal low profile servo, quite affordable and sometime necessary to make it fit.
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Last edited by blis; 08-27-2012 at 08:34 PM.
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Old 08-27-2012, 10:12 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by blis View Post
I totally respect your contribution to the sport but I do have a problem with the logic in this case.

No body will be penalised for running heavier than 1550. So run 2KG if you want and enjoy yourself, it's affordable, you just wont be competitive at the top level.

Now, for those who wish to compete at the TOP level, then money is NO OBJECT as racing is always expensive at this level. So we cannot argue that it is unfair on the budget racer, because there are many other areas of performance, such as modified motors, titanium screws, titanium shafts, lightened shafts and these are all used by the top runners.

Ultimately it should be fair but to begin handicapping with weight isnt part of our sport. If it were I would 100% guarantee we would handicap Grosskamp, Peitsch and all the others and allow a good driver with a poor quality car to win the world championship and we would ultimately LOSE the stars of our sport.

This is a no win argument, and for anyone who wants to curb the performance of our cars must be thinking only of their own performance. From the very first day I bought a RC car, all I wanted to do is make it go faster. I KNEW that it's based on my budget and how far I want to take it, that does not mean I dictate to others how much they want to invest to achieve their desired performance.

And Roelof, do we ban you from fabricating your own clutches or stop you from investing time and money into tuning systems, no! It's an advantage to you that you want to invest in and the same applies to a chassis.

If one manufacturer manages to improve on a design, should we stop them because the others havent managed to do the same.

ALSO...

Lil Bump.... Capricorn C02 Fragile????

Either you do not own one, or you come off track and expect a Race Spec car to tolerate that kind of abuse, our Capricorn is far from fragile! 1.5 years on and nothing broken short of a Lay Shaft bearing change.

PS: Roelof... I do not want an argument.

- lightweight bodies -> Higher CG if you use heavy shell. IT COSTS ME MORE TO PAINT ONE.
- LiPo/LiFe batteries -> NiMH??? NO SERIOUSLY!!!! Thank god for LiFe, no more runaways into the fence!
- aluminium shafts -> There's different grades and not all Aluminium is equal. (Just ask Mugen)
- titanium or aluminium srews -> It's the norm even in slower class EP racing.
- lightweight rims -> Subject to warp and cracking, so the choice is up to you, I use out of the box Capricorn Tyres, and love them ($25 a set)
- sometimes low profile or even micro servo's are used -> $75 for a Savox Hi Speed metal low profile servo, quite affordable and sometime necessary to make it fit.


I used to be against weight reduction, but what Harry says makes sense. My understanding is that EFRA is acknowledging now, that perhaps manufacturers need to be consulted before deciding on drastic changes to weights like this. And Harry is right; Capricorn is most definitely the strongest car we've owned, despite being light in weight.

The 2012 Worlds weight limit of 1650 gr., is probably a good compromise at this stage. Noise is major problem for our sport, and I understand that some tracks in Europe are in deep trouble. I agree that all must working towards finding solutions to this; I'm no expert, but I don't buy the argument that lowering the weight offers any kind of noise reduction. It would be great to make the sport cheaper to encourage better participation; but it has also been pointed out to me that cars and running them today, are really no more expensive than about 10 years ago relative to wage and price inflation. Reliability problems with some other manufacturers are not from weight reduction; they are caused by other policy decisions by the makers.

Kindest regards,
Lars.
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Last edited by Chickentrader; 08-28-2012 at 12:11 AM.
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Old 08-28-2012, 03:57 AM   #261
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The problem with 1/10th nitro touring is something like this:"Hi I'm a newbie and yesterday saw a parking lot race,what should I get?" then words like "modified" "tuned" "the minimum you can go is a XXL3" "get a [insert a expensive brand of touring cars]" then it degrades into a peeing match...I have a old tourer,still in good shape but heavy regarding these new rules.If I don't want to be automatically at a disadvantage then I have to throw some money to be lighter or buy a new lighter car,because you know,nobody wants to be starting at a disadvantage.
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Old 08-28-2012, 04:33 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by blis View Post
I totally respect your contribution to the sport but I do have a problem with the logic in this case.

No body will be penalised for running heavier than 1550. So run 2KG if you want and enjoy yourself, it's affordable, you just wont be competitive at the top level.

Now, for those who wish to compete at the TOP level, then money is NO OBJECT as racing is always expensive at this level. So we cannot argue that it is unfair on the budget racer, because there are many other areas of performance, such as modified motors, titanium screws, titanium shafts, lightened shafts and these are all used by the top runners.
True, nobody will be penalised for a to heavy weight but he will be punished to invest in lightweight stuff with the urge to go faster (if it is needed or not). Again in a sport where more than 90% of the drivers are privateers it is not healthy to make this sport more professional with higher needed budgets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blis View Post
Ultimately it should be fair but to begin handicapping with weight isnt part of our sport. If it were I would 100% guarantee we would handicap Grosskamp, Peitsch and all the others and allow a good driver with a poor quality car to win the world championship and we would ultimately LOSE the stars of our sport.
In (stock) motorsports it is quite normal to handycap the fast drivers with weights....
Personal I think it is wrong to say that we loose stars, for sure those people are payed to drive the races no matter what rules are used. Loosing 150 gram because those guys want it is stupid because you must think of the other 90% and protect them for unwanted high budgets.
Today it is 1550, over 3 years 1400 ???? With the easyness of how fast manufacturers can design new cars and sell lightweight stuff why not but it will have its disadvantages....

Quote:
Originally Posted by blis View Post
This is a no win argument, and for anyone who wants to curb the performance of our cars must be thinking only of their own performance. From the very first day I bought a RC car, all I wanted to do is make it go faster. I KNEW that it's based on my budget and how far I want to take it, that does not mean I dictate to others how much they want to invest to achieve their desired performance.
The main problem with many optional and lightweight parts and modified engines is that people think they can buy performance and must buy them to go faster while in most cases the drivers can make much more improvement to stick more time into driving and setting up the car. If you are 1 seccond away from the topdrivers no tuning part wil help you to go faster but that is what no manufacturer and toplevel driver is telling you.
I run a stock MRX4 with normal rims, an own modified N21-5T and my own clutch. Last national I became 12th with just 2 seconds from the final. Behind me there were many people with more expensive (even team modified) engines, newer model cars and lightweight stuff, I can only laught to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blis View Post
And Roelof, do we ban you from fabricating your own clutches or stop you from investing time and money into tuning systems, no! It's an advantage to you that you want to invest in and the same applies to a chassis.

If one manufacturer manages to improve on a design, should we stop them because the others havent managed to do the same.
I see it different.... Do it yourself is the way to get more knowledge and to do more within a low budget. Most drivers today can only buy stuff, even the most simple screw must be one from a RC manufacturer while the hardware store on the corner of your street can supply many screws for a lower price and even other stuff.
I did grow up with people who did it their selves and it did save me a lot of money over the years. I know some people do not like it to share such things but I still do think it is a part of the hobby.
Higher costs is one the main enemy's of the future of this sport.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blis View Post
PS: Roelof... I do not want an argument.

- lightweight bodies -> Higher CG if you use heavy shell. IT COSTS ME MORE TO PAINT ONE.
- LiPo/LiFe batteries -> NiMH??? NO SERIOUSLY!!!! Thank god for LiFe, no more runaways into the fence!
- aluminium shafts -> There's different grades and not all Aluminium is equal. (Just ask Mugen)
- titanium or aluminium srews -> It's the norm even in slower class EP racing.
- lightweight rims -> Subject to warp and cracking, so the choice is up to you, I use out of the box Capricorn Tyres, and love them ($25 a set)
- sometimes low profile or even micro servo's are used -> $75 for a Savox Hi Speed metal low profile servo, quite affordable and sometime necessary to make it fit.
I only did say there is more needed to get that weight making the compleete picture more fragile. Running whole finals to the finish w/o problems is more satisfying than quiting races with problems......
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Old 08-28-2012, 12:55 PM   #263
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Novarossi based engines seems to still be the pick by most of the worlds top drivers.

Kindest regards,
Lars.
Novarossi based engines seems still pick by most of the worlds top drivers,it is because nova still the most reliable engine among the engine manufaturer(maybe i'm wrong),but if one day one of the market player(not nova) come out light weight engine(performance and reliable equal to nova),do you think the top driver still stick with nova.
that why engine weight still play some part of the weight rules
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Old 08-28-2012, 02:24 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by kyosho malaysia View Post
Novarossi based engines seems still pick by most of the worlds top drivers,it is because nova still the most reliable engine among the engine manufaturer(maybe i'm wrong),but if one day one of the market player(not nova) come out light weight engine(performance and reliable equal to nova),do you think the top driver still stick with nova.
that why engine weight still play some part of the weight rules
I just wanted to point out that I do not believe that that engine manufacturers don't already know that there would be a competitive advantage (and a significant one) in lighter engines; and that they must not have a solution yet that doesn't sacrifice reliability for lighter weights.

I also think that manufacturers are working on and will find solutions too this, and that the next generation of engines will most likely be lighter in weight. But like you say, the manufacturer that come first will have a big advantage in the market. Perhaps this development would be faster if all classes of RC; and not only tourers, were screaming out for lighter engines.

Kindest regards,
Lars.
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Old 08-30-2012, 07:41 AM   #265
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1650g, control tyres, control fuel.

That is basically how I'd like to see it, and no traction compounds, I know they are doing this whole appeasing thing to allow 'safe' compounds, with all the weirdness of then saying you should not need it cause tracks will have best effort to make high traction, but everyone will dope if it's there.

All sorts of directions I see RC taking I'm not happy with, I'm a little perplexed we want to now dope in IC, when the recent electric whatever ran without, weird times.
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Old 08-30-2012, 01:29 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by Chickentrader View Post
I just wanted to point out that I do not believe that that engine manufacturers don't already know that there would be a competitive advantage (and a significant one) in lighter engines; and that they must not have a solution yet that doesn't sacrifice reliability for lighter weights.

I also think that manufacturers are working on and will find solutions too this, and that the next generation of engines will most likely be lighter in weight. But like you say, the manufacturer that come first will have a big advantage in the market. Perhaps this development would be faster if all classes of RC; and not only tourers, were screaming out for lighter engines.

Kindest regards,
Lars.
Is the reliability so important anymore?? I mean really? This summer has showed me that the new generation cars don't finish the races. There has been sooo much more DNFs than before. My friend lost 7 sets of spur gears during our nationals from his car. This is bad if you think that there are only 8 starts in the race. In the summer's first race only 2 out of 10 cars finished the final without problems.

If I'd known this before I would have raced my old MTX3 and been on the podium in all the races.

-X-
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Old 08-30-2012, 01:37 PM   #267
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Is the reliability so important anymore?? I mean really? This summer has showed me that the new generation cars don't finish the races. There has been sooo much more DNFs than before. My friend lost 7 sets of spur gears during our nationals from his car. This is bad if you think that there are only 8 starts in the race. In the summer's first race only 2 out of 10 cars finished the final without problems.

If I'd known this before I would have raced my old MTX3 and been on the podium in all the races.

-X-
do your friend driving the mugen mtx5
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Old 08-30-2012, 01:47 PM   #268
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do your friend driving the mugen mtx5
No, he's driving Capricorn, but this is not the point. I see the problems with all the new cars. And all these guys used to have no problems before with the old cars. There is gears stripping, belts breaking, diff-gears melting... all kind of problems.

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Old 08-30-2012, 02:26 PM   #269
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Is the reliability so important anymore?? I mean really? This summer has showed me that the new generation cars don't finish the races. There has been sooo much more DNFs than before. My friend lost 7 sets of spur gears during our nationals from his car. This is bad if you think that there are only 8 starts in the race. In the summer's first race only 2 out of 10 cars finished the final without problems.

If I'd known this before I would have raced my old MTX3 and been on the podium in all the races.

-X-

I was originally against reduction of weights; but what Harry said makes sense to me, and I cannot find a hole in his argument.

I'm really sorry, but my experience is that our light weight car only fail when we've missed something. But then again the MTX3 was obviously bullet proof, and that's where Mugen got their reputation from. And I am not lying when I state that we have never ever stripped one gear in our Capricorns when everything was right. I have only seen gears stripped in this brand of car when there has been problems with bearing in the two speed, worn out two speed shoes that jam the gears, one way problems, engine that has moved, incorrect gear mesh, gears that are worn out etc., etc.. But at the same time it would probably be fair to admit that that smaller components wear faster, and do require more frequent replacement and attention to maintenance. The smaller components are what makes the cars so much faster out on the corners, and were not designed originally with making the cars lighter as a goal.

I'm only aware of reliability problems with one brand of cars. Never had a MTX3, but our CO2 is easily as; if not more reliable, than anything else we've ever raced. Cheap manufacturing, no quality control and obsession with finding grip though chassis flex; seem to be the cause of reliability problems in some brands, but our car is testimony that weight is not necessary an impediment to reliability.

Kindest regards,
Lars.
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Old 08-30-2012, 02:39 PM   #270
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If I'd known this before I would have raced my old MTX3 and been on the podium in all the races.

-X-
Do it. People call me crazy but I truly believe that car can still win. I really want to buy mine back (I know exactly where it is ) and prove it.
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